S: You are contending that whatever God asks or does is moral, but if I were to ask or do the same thing it would be immoral. Therefore you are saying that God does not hold Himself to the same standard as you and I. He, in a sense, is above the law. How could this be if the law is a transcript of His character? How could God tell me not to murder and then murder at will claiming that when He premeditates murder because of anger and jealousy it isn't murder, yet He defines murder in His law?

MM: Scott, there are plenty of things God can do that we cannot also do because we are not God. Recently I posted a quote from the SOP where she says it was okay for God to kill those who rebelled against Him but that it wouldn't have been okay for the Jewish leaders to have meted out the same punishment. But I cannot find that quote now. Nor can I recall the specific story she was commenting on.

GC, if Abraham had killed Isaac, would that have been immoral? I mean actually killed him, not just the preparations to do so. I'm guessing you would say yes, because of God's actions to prevent it. But if God had not taken action to prevent it, then there would have been nothing immoral about it (Please correct me if I'm guessing wrong regarding your thoughts here).

Assuming these guesses are correct, there is nothing inherent in the act itself, such as killing, which is moral or immoral. All that matters is what God says to do. So if God commanded us to kill someone walking down the street (not threatening anyone), I'm talking about now, today, we would be dishonoring him if we didn't kill that person. Have I understood you correctly?

You're probably thinking about the one about the flood.

Why are you asking this? I mean, how does your question fit in the flow here?

You've asked this question to me before. How did I answer it?

Of course Jesus was speaking literally. Almost everything that Jesus said has dual application: literal and spiritual/symbolic. I firmly believe it would be better to enter heaven physically blinded because I had cut out both of my sinful eyes, than to never get to heaven on account of them. Jesus is telling us here, in very straightforward manner, that the eternal is of greater importance than the temporal--even if it means our own bodies.


God may not want such a thing, but God knows what is best. You will never convince me that God wanted to give the children of Israel the quail either. Yet He yielded to them, and gave it. Did God want to afflict the Egyptians with the 10 plagues? But Pharaoh had hardened his heart, and God sent the plagues. We have no right to second-guess God. He is infinitely wiser than we are. Let Him be God, and let our own hearts be humble.

I don't recall seeing any record of a woman's hand actually being cut off. Perhaps they all feared the law, and obeyed. In any case, one or two cases would have been sufficient examples to the rest. God gave this law for a reason. Do you truly feel it was a worthless law? Do you truly believe you know better than God what laws He should make?


And perhaps how men should be treated too? Isn't that the purpose of the law we just discussed?


I sensed this coming. Most who disagree with the Law of Moses end up trying to claim it was abolished, and no longer applies. Unfortunately, this argument still does not work in your case, because you have conversely implied that at one time it was binding. So, if your case is true, during that time, was it a revelation of God's character to the people? Was it the truth?

Additionally, you have quoted Ellen White in making your case against polygamy, so I will now present a balancing statement from her pen which speaks of the "immutable" law. Immutable means unable to be changed--without exception. (I have bolded the relevant portion.)


Jesus said "Till heaven and earth pass...." Heaven and earth have not passed yet. That should help you decide.


Do you think you know better than God? Do you suppose you could have made better laws?

The law of God is as immutable as His character. It was an expression of His character. When we wish to become like Him in character, we begin by obeying His commands. "If ye love me, keep my commandments," Jesus said.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It would have been sin for Abraham not to follow God's command. God knew what He would do...and what Abraham would do. God knew that Abraham would not complete the act because God would prevent it. But in his heart, Abraham fulfilled the Divine commission. Had he rebelled, and refused the orders, it would have been sin. It would have been sin for Abraham to mistrust God, or doubt that God knew what was best. Too often today, we question God. We have come to feel in our society that this is "higher reasoning." But it is NOT faith. God used Abraham to teach us a lesson in faith. And Abraham fulfilled the command perfectly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

No, He wasn't. It wouldn't make any sense for us to cut off our hand because our hand doesn't cause us to sin, our mind does.



You're eyes aren't sinful. Your mind is.



Not exactly, but that's close. Here's how EGW put it:



I think she nailed this one. This is exactly how I see it.



??? It's best to cut women's hands off? How does this explanation help? What is it better than? I suppose than not cutting them off. Why would that be? Why is a woman without a hand better than with the hand?



I completely agree with this.



Second guess, no; understand yes.



A slavish obedience seems to be precisely what you are envisioning. How is your view different than what a slavish obedience would be? A slave doesn't ask why, he just does. But God doesn't want us as slaves, but friends.



My point is that Jesus Christ reveals God's ideal will better than the law of Moses does. It's hard for me to believe anyone would believe that God's ideal will is that women's hands be cut off. Why would that be?



(I liked the way you built up "immutable". Bold before the word, then the word itself is LARGE and then back to just bold. Nicely done.)

Your quote is not talking about the law of Moses, but about the 10 commandments. Ellen White understood that the law of Moses was nailed to the cross.





This is speaking of the 10 commandments too. Not the law of Moses.



This is answering a question with a question, right? That doesn't really answer my question, does it?



The law of God, yes. The law of Moses, no. One is immutable. The other nailed to the cross. Two different laws are being referred to.

The law of Moses was not God's? Did Moses actually make up his own laws? I'm confused.

Since the majority of the difference between our viewpoints currently deals with these laws, I will refrain from answering the details we were discussing, and try to settle the fundamentals first. If we work from different definitions, it would be fruitless to try to understand each other on the details anyway.

A few points:

1) Jesus was nailed to the cross.

2) After Jesus was nailed to the cross, He became more precious to us.

3) After Jesus was nailed to the cross, the promised salvation became an actual reality. It was ratified and validated.

4) After being nailed to the cross, Jesus was not thus "abolished." Jesus was not destroyed. He lives today.

Upon what grounds, then, can you say that, contrary to these points, the law being nailed to the cross with Christ was "abolished?" For this, I need scripture.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ok, since we're dealing with basic principles, let's go back a bit. Do you understand that there are two different laws involved, one of which was the 10 commandments which is immutable and eternal, the other one of which is not? If you don't believe the law of Moses was done away with, do you offer the sacrifices the law enjoins?

Col. 2:14 is the Scripture I (and EGW in the quote I cited) was speaking of. It speaks of a law being nailed to the cross.

In addition, there is much of Galatians and several chapters of Romans, and other writings of Paul, which explain why circumcision, which stood for the entire law of Moses, was no longer necessary. For example:

Tom, we are still not on the same page. The laws you have lumped together as "the Law of Moses" can be further subdivided. I divide these into these groups:

1) Ceremonial laws
2) Health laws
3) Civil laws

Or, to make it simpler, we could simply say:
1) Ceremonial laws
2) All other statutes

The only ones fulfilled by Christ's sacrifice, and therefore no longer needing to be followed, were the Ceremonial Laws.

While all of these laws may be popularly called "the Law of Moses," Ellen White makes clear from whence they came:



Let us seek to be wise.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.