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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: scott] #100279
06/27/08 06:33 AM
06/27/08 06:33 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: scott

I agree 100% that God doesn't murder and I agree that the word used in the Exodus 20 is "murder" not "killing". There is nothing immoral about swatting a fly.

You made a point that murder has been defined, in the scripture, as "confined to 1) people, and 2) a premeditated, unjustified act". I agree, by definition, that murder can only apply to people. But you might want to separate "premeditated" and "unjustified" into two categories. I disagree that murder has to be premeditated. One can murder by simply getting angry and, in an act of passion, hit someone hard enough to kill them without any premeditation at all.

Also "unjustified" doesn't fit because according to your definition I can kill anyone as long as there is justification. An example would be for the United States military to decide that there are too many illegal immigrants so they start gunning them down as soon as they cross the boarder.

So I reject your definition of murder on two of the three qualities you mention. I would say that murder has more to do with motive. There are several legal considerations of murder. A few are self defense, manslaughter, and pre-meditated murder. The only difference between them is motive.

The bible mentions some of the motives defining murder as anger, jealousy, revenge, wrath, acts of violence, and selfish motives. And several of these motives are given to God as justification for killing . . . people. God wanting a certain land for Israel so He commissions them to kill whole nations every man woman and child. Anger, jealousy, and even revenge are contributed to God’s motives by the Bible writers.

Basically you put me in a position that I have to reject the motives that the Bible writers apply to God’s killing people or I have to accept the motive given and declare that God is above His law and can act any way He wants because He is the biggest and strongest and who are we to argue with God.

scott

Alright, for some additional clarity here:

I don't define "premeditated" in the same manner as does the US government. The government will also tell many people that they can get divorced, and can "legally" marry someone new. I don't define marriage the way the government does either. God's definitions are different.

"Premeditated," in my usage here, is as opposed to "accidental." If you choose to do it, then you made a decision before you acted. The killing, then, is not accidental. Biblically, this is murder. However, an accident, where no one had deliberately chosen to kill, was not considered murder. The Bible speaks of this as killing "unawares."

However, having thought about my use of the term "premeditated," perhaps a better choice might be "deliberate." That is what I meant.

As for "unjustified," the justification I speak of here, again, means Biblical justification. Again, I do not conform to the world's definitions here. This is a Bible discussion, using Bible terms, and as such, let us not waste time bringing the world into it when the Bible itself can be clear.

God defined the possible reasons for a legal (moral) killing. One was to execute justice on a murderer. It was the job of a kinsman of the one murdered to be the avenger. However, if they carried out their duty with hatred and hot emotion, God said they were themselves become murderers, and were to be killed by the same process. Their "revenge" could not be in a vengeful spirit. God claims vengeance as His own domain, not ours.

Another justified reason for killing would be as a witness to crime worthy of death penalty. The witnesses were to be the first to cast stones at the guilty one, following fair trial, and all the congregation would then join the witnesses in executing the judgment.

There were other reasons...but perhaps this is enough to clarify.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100280
06/27/08 06:56 AM
06/27/08 06:56 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Do you know who was the very first being to kill?

Yes. Satan.


And who/what did Satan kill first?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa

I didn't hear back on this one yet.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100284
06/27/08 03:09 PM
06/27/08 03:09 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding post #100278 you say

 Quote:
The only ones fulfilled by Christ's sacrifice, and therefore no longer needing to be followed, were the Ceremonial Laws.


If this were true, wouldn't it follow that we should still be stoning people for breaking the Sabbath, and cutting off women's hands? (to just name 2 things).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100285
06/27/08 03:14 PM
06/27/08 03:14 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
T:GC, if Abraham had killed Isaac, would that have been immoral? I mean actually killed him, not just the preparations to do so. I'm guessing you would say yes, because of God's actions to prevent it. But if God had not taken action to prevent it, then there would have been nothing immoral about it (Please correct me if I'm guessing wrong regarding your thoughts here).

Assuming these guesses are correct, there is nothing inherent in the act itself, such as killing, which is moral or immoral. All that matters is what God says to do. So if God commanded us to kill someone walking down the street (not threatening anyone), I'm talking about now, today, we would be dishonoring him if we didn't kill that person. Have I understood you correctly?

GC:It would have been sin for Abraham not to follow God's command. God knew what He would do...and what Abraham would do. God knew that Abraham would not complete the act because God would prevent it. But in his heart, Abraham fulfilled the Divine commission. Had he rebelled, and refused the orders, it would have been sin. It would have been sin for Abraham to mistrust God, or doubt that God knew what was best. Too often today, we question God. We have come to feel in our society that this is "higher reasoning." But it is NOT faith. God used Abraham to teach us a lesson in faith. And Abraham fulfilled the command perfectly.


You didn't answer the question I was asking. I am asking about the act itself. Would it have been an immoral act for Abraham to actually kill Isaac?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100286
06/27/08 03:17 PM
06/27/08 03:17 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding who Satan killed first: himself.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100287
06/27/08 06:39 PM
06/27/08 06:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
Here’s how I explain it – God described His will regarding this matter in the Law of Moses. Jesus said, “Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.”


You realize Jesus wasn't speaking literally here, don't you? Assuming you do, I'm not understanding why you would explain a statement of Jesus Christ's which is not literal to explain one from the law of Moses which is literal.

Also, I still don't know the answer to my question, which is why God would want a woman's hand to be cut off, or how you could think God would want such a thing.

 Quote:
Tom, Scott did not address this question. Why is it so hard for you to answer the question? Either God expected Moses to obey Him or He did not, right? So, did God expect Moses to stone the Sabbath-breaker to death or not? Was God testing Moses, and did Moses fail the test?


I just liked the approach Scott is taking (better than what I would have said), and he's already talking about this.

By the way, I did address the question. I addressed it by saying I'm deferring to Scott.

 Quote:
TE: You wrote: “None of the insights outlined herein support Tom's assertions that the Law of Moses does not illustrate God's will.” What I wrote is very clear. I'm saying the law of Moses does not represent God's ideal will, and that Jesus Christ does. What you wrote makes it sound like I don't think the law of Moses illustrates God's will in any way. Can't you see the difference? If you can't, please just play it safe and quote me.

MM:In what way do you believe polygamy, as it exists in the Law of Moses, illustrates God’s will?


I didn't say this either, did I? You're really good at this!

 Quote:
So, are you saying God permitted polygamy under specific circumstances because (1) the Jews were ignorant? If so, then, (2) what were they ignorant of? And (3) why were they ignorant of it?


Quoting from Roy Gane again:

 Quote:
4. I agree with Larson that we need to trace the trajectory of Scripture in order to follow the direction it is leading, even when this means moving beyond (but never contrary to, I would add) explicit statements of Scripture. For example, in the Bible there are no explicit divine commands prohibiting everyone from practicing all forms of slavery or polygamy under all circumstances. However, we see in Scripture that God did not initiate these institutions and did not like them. He undermined them by teaching the value of each human being, and regulated them to mitigate their worst effects in an age when completely abolishing them would have resulted in starvation for debt-servants and for rejected women. We correctly deduce that in harmony with the biblical message, Christians must never practice slavery or polygamy.(http://spectrummagazine.typepad.com/the_spectrum_blog/2006/09/reaction_to_dav.html)


Regarding what the Jews were ignorant of, one thing, particularly germane here, is regarding how women should be treated.

 Quote:
Does this mean you agree it was not a sin (a violation of the Law of God) for a Jew to have more than one wife at a time in accordance with the Law of Moses?


Ellen White wrote:

 Quote:
Polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God. (PP 145)


A violation of the law is sin, right?

 Quote:

TE: Not at all! Jesus Christ represented the ideal will of God. She is clear about that, as is Scripture. John, for example, says that the law came through Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. What do you think he meant by that?

How can you agree with what she wrote above and yet also believe there is tension (contradiction, discrepancy) between what Jesus commanded Moses to write and what Jesus said while He was here in the flesh?


Because she's saying the same thing I am. The law of Moses was an accommodation for a backward and stiffnecked people. God was counseling them regarding the 10 commandments as best He could, given their ignorance and hardened hearts. However, Jesus Christ was not constrained by either ignorance nor a hardened heart. His revelation was perfect.

That there is tension, as you put it, is clear by the fact that Jesus said repeatedly on the Sermon on the Mount "you have heard" (quote from Law of Moses) "but I say unto you" (an explanation from Jesus). Why do you think Jesus did this?

 Quote:
Do you really think Jesus contradicted the Law of Moses?


No, not contradicted. He explained more clearly the principles of which the Law of Moses was given to explain. The Law of Moses was one explanation, Jesus Christ's was another. Jesus Christ's was better.

 Quote:
Do you think grace and truth undermines the Law of Moses?


I don't know what you're asking here. Undermining wasn't an issue in John's statement. It doesn't have anything to do with undermining.

 Quote:
I think John’s comment about law and grace and truth means – Moses merely gave us the law and the truth,


No, not the law and truth, just the law. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 Quote:
but only Jesus can make it effectual in our life. There is no contradiction.


Contradiction of what?

John said that grace and truth came through Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ showed us what God is really like (see vs. 18, just a couple of verses later).

 Quote:
TE: Obedience to the 10 commandments are the conditions of blessing, and that's not an arbitrary rule, but just a description of reality. As we live in harmony with the principles of God's character, principles of agape, blessings will follow. The law of Moses was an accommodation for a backward and stiffnecked people. It was the best directions God could give to these people, in the condition in which they found themselves. However, it's clear that these instructions are different than what Jesus revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. Why the difference? Because Jesus was neither backward nor stiffnecked. Jesus understood the love of God, and knew His ideal will, which He perfectly revealed. How do you explain the difference between the law of Moses and Jesus' teaching? If the law of Moses was God's ideal will, then there should be no difference between it and what Jesus taught.

Tom, aren’t you treading on dangerous ground?


It depends. If God is as you think He is, then I'm on dangerous ground. If God is as I think He is, then I'm not.

 Quote:
Is it safe to say things that undermine the laws of God?


Not the moral law. The law of Moses is no longer binding, so I don't see how I could undermine it.

 Quote:
Insisting that the Law of Moses contains certain ordinances and judgments that apply only to people who are in darkness and are ignorant of God’s “ideal” will for them is tricky business at best, right? Who am I to decide what applies to me and what does not?


The law of Moses is no longer binding. It was nailed to the cross. That should help you decide.

 Quote:
I agree things are different under a Theocracy versus under the Church. Certain aspects, like the death penalty, can no longer be acted upon if the ruling government forbids it. But this doesn’t mean they were never God’s ideal will. Do you see what I mean? Jesus never taught us to disregard the laws of Moses as if they were faulty and did not represent God’s ideal will for the children of Israel.


What I said was that Jesus Christ was a better revelation of God's ideal will than the law of Moses.

Do you think if the law permitted it that stoning Sabbath-breakers would be a good idea? Do you think it would be a good idea to cut off women's hands?

1. Cutting off a woman's hand or stoning the Sabbath-breaker to death was commanded by God. The Law of Moses represented God's will for the COI. He gave it to them to help them obey His law. It does not, as you seem to believe, reflect God compromising to accommodate sinful practices or hardhearted sinners. It does not make sense to me to say God commanded cutting off a woman's hand or stoning to death Sabbath-breakers because the COI were too sinful to grasp His ideal will. The idea that some people have that the COI could not respect and obey God if He was merciful and loving, instead of enforcing capital punishment, is absurd.

2. So, did God expect Moses to stone the Sabbath-breaker to death or not? Was God testing Moses? And, did Moses fail the test? What thinkest thou? PS - Ignoring this question is not going to make it go away.

3. You wrote, "What you wrote makes it sound like I don't think the law of Moses illustrates God's will in any way." So, do you believe polygamy, as it exists in the Law of Moses, illustrates God’s will in some way?

4. You wrote, "A violation of the law is sin, right?" So, does this mean you believe it was a sin for a Jew to have more than one wife at a time in accordance with the Law of Moses? Did God permit sinning in the Law of Moses?

5. "Do you really think Jesus contradicted the Law of Moses?" In response to this question, you wrote, "No, not contradicted. He explained more clearly the principles of which the Law of Moses was given to explain. The Law of Moses was one explanation, Jesus Christ's was another. Jesus Christ's was better." Jesus didn't say anything that wasn't already written in the Pentateuch. “The truths which Christ presented were the same that had been taught by the prophets, but they had become obscured through hardness of heart and love of sin.” (MB 55) Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

6. You wrote, “The law of Moses is no longer binding. It was nailed to the cross.” But Jesus said, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus taught the “same truths” Moses taught; He didn’t present something new or better or different or contradictory.

MB 55
Through Moses the Lord had said, "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart. . . . Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:17, 18. The truths which Christ presented were the same that had been taught by the prophets, but they had become obscured through hardness of heart and love of sin. {MB 55.2}

"... they had become obscured through hardness of heart and love of sin." You, on the other hand, seem to be saying the laws of Moses were given because of the hardness of their hearts. So, which is right?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100288
06/27/08 06:59 PM
06/27/08 06:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
Regarding who Satan killed first: himself.

As to who killed first, where did God get the animal skins to cover A&E? Did He kill animals?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100293
06/27/08 08:21 PM
06/27/08 08:21 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Regarding who Satan killed first: himself.

As to who killed first, where did God get the animal skins to cover A&E? Did He kill animals?


According to Jesus, Satan was a liar, murderer and a thief from the beginning, so he wins as first killer.

Regarding the animals, God could have gotten the skin from a live animal (the Hebrew is inconclusive as to the covering; there are animals that can provide coverings without having to die) or the animal could have already been dead, so it isn't necessary to assume that God killed an animal to provide a covering for Adam and Eve.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100299
06/27/08 09:23 PM
06/27/08 09:23 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
1. Cutting off a woman's hand or stoning the Sabbath-breaker to death was commanded by God. The Law of Moses represented God's will for the COI. He gave it to them to help them obey His law. It does not, as you seem to believe, reflect God compromising to accommodate sinful practices or hardhearted sinners. It does not make sense to me to say God commanded cutting off a woman's hand or stoning to death Sabbath-breakers because the COI were too sinful to grasp His ideal will.


I still don't know the answer to my question, which is why God would want a woman's hand to be cut off, or how you could think God would want such a thing.

 Quote:
The idea that some people have that the COI could not respect and obey God if He was merciful and loving, instead of (acting in some other way), is absurd.


I agree with this (with the change in parenthesis). God was, of course, merciful and loving, as that is His nature.

Regarding 2, I'll wait for Scott.

 Quote:
3. You wrote, "What you wrote makes it sound like I don't think the law of Moses illustrates God's will in any way." So, do you believe polygamy, as it exists in the Law of Moses, illustrates God’s will in some way?


I wrote "in any way," not "in every way." The SOP tells us:

 Quote:
God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance. It is contrary to His will.(SR 76)


I'm having a hard time comprehending why you're having so much difficulty understanding this. Perhaps you could explain the difficulty. It says, "it is contrary to His will." Why isn't this clear?

Regarding 4, I asked you a question. Rather than just ask me 3 new questions, it would be nice if you would answer my question. In response to your questions, they would be the same as I've been saying, the same answer as 3, the same quote.

Regarding 5 you claim:

 Quote:
Jesus didn't say anything that wasn't already written in the Pentateuch.


Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You've been arguing on another thread that no one could read the Pentateuch and know about Christ. Christ spoke about Himself, right? That being the case, it must follow, according your assertion that He didn't say anything that wasn't already written in the Pentateuch that the Pentateuch speaks of Christ as well. So you're contradicting yourself.

Regarding 6, that's speaking of the 10 commandments. I already addressed this in a previous quote. Here's the statement I quoted:

 Quote:
In trying to meet this argument early Sabbathkeepers explained that Paul was referring to the ceremonial law which was fulfilled at the time that Christ was nailed to the cross.(Woman of Vision 246)


This is referring to Col. 2:14.

Regarding the law of Moses, do you think we should still be cutting off women's hands and stoning people for Sabbath-breaking?

 Quote:
Jesus taught the “same truths” Moses taught; He didn’t present something new or better or different or contradictory.


Jesus said:

 Quote:
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt 5)


Where is this truth found in the Pentateuch?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100301
06/27/08 09:57 PM
06/27/08 09:57 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Quote:
By Tom: Regarding 2, I'll wait for Scott.


 Quote:
By MM: 2. So, did God expect Moses to stone the Sabbath-breaker to death or not? Was God testing Moses? And, did Moses fail the test? What thinkest thou? PS - Ignoring this question is not going to make it go away.


Hi Tom,

I’d be glad to comment on this. There is much debate that the laws of Moses were dictated to him by God and therefore represent the way God would handle things. Jesus was confronted with this in terms of divorce and his answer was that God wanted no part in divorce, but allowed them to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.

I believe that Jesus’ assessment applies to all the laws. They are not God’s ideals, but represent the hardness of the hearts of the people. Not only do the actual laws represent where the people were at, but the punishment did also. Jesus demonstrated this with the woman caught in adultery. Yes, according to the law you can stone a woman, but it is God’s heart to forgive and set free!

Therefore I would say that all the laws of Moses reflected the hard hearts of the people and not God at all. The sin in our hearts is exposed not only in the law, but in the punishment.

Here is a question for you: Do you think that Jesus’ words, to those who caught the woman in adultery, would have been the right words in Moses’ time to someone who caught a woman in adultery?

If your answer is yes then you have the answer to your #2.

I wouldn’t say that God was testing Moses, but revealing what was in the hearts of Israel by both the law and the punishments dictated in the law. Neither reflects God’s heart, but both reflect our hard hearts.

scott

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from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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