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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Rosangela] #100106
06/19/08 09:17 PM
06/19/08 09:17 PM
Tom  Offline
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TE: No one is suggesting that a person's ignorance is due to a lack of competence on God's part.

MM: How long does it take a person to understand what God is trying to communicate to them?

 Quote:
As long as it takes. Let's take Rosangela's self-pity as an example. The very first step is she had to recognize what was happening. Self-pity can easily be understood as being something else. (pride is another example of this; we are phenomenal at misdiagnosing pride). This involves a mental perception. Our ability to perceive things is dependent upon many factors.


 Quote:
Are ingrained habits really the source of one's inability to grasp what God is clearly telling them?


That may be possible, but it wouldn't be the primary reason. It could be a contributing factor, which is easy to see. For example, if a bad habit one has is not getting enough sleep, that could easily be a source of one's inability to grasp what God is saying.

 Quote:
Please post inspired statements to support this idea. Thank you.


There are many statements which talk about how important it is that we have a clear mind to understanding God. I'm sure you're aware of them. Anything that impacts our ability to have a clean mind would impact our ability to understand what God is telling us.

 Quote:
The following insights do not encourage me to agree with your observations. God does not hold back revealing certain truths because it would be too painful. He lays it out clearly and plainly. There is no room for doubt or confusion. The only question is - This is the way, will ye walk therein?


I think you're misinterpreting the statement you cited. We've already talked about this. There are many things we don't know about ourselves. God can't reveal them to us all at once or we'd be undone (which is what happens to the wicked). So instead He reveals things to us bit by bit, as we are able to deal with them. The more willing we are to cooperate with God, the quicker He can heal us. But if we miss something, He'll bring us around to the same point until we get it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Rosangela] #100171
06/25/08 04:10 PM
06/25/08 04:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Ok, but how would you classify then Peter's prejudice, the use of makeup by that girl, and my self-pity? In other words, things that you didn't see as sins for a time but afterwards came to regard as such?

Sins of ignorance, right? That is, thoughts and feelings they did not regard as sinful. So, why didn't they seem sinful to these people? Why were they ignorant of them? Especially in light of the SC quote quoted above?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #100173
06/25/08 04:45 PM
06/25/08 04:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
TE: No one is suggesting that a person's ignorance is due to a lack of competence on God's part. Our minds work in certain ways. It takes time for certain ways of thought to change. When one is accustomed to think in a certain way, it can be very difficult for the mind to think of things in a different way. If we were robots, God could just zap something, and our thought processes would change. But we're not. God has to work with our perceptions such as they are, and make appeals to us that we can understand. Indeed, it's rather amazing that God can make any progress at all.

MM: How long does it take a person to understand what God is trying to communicate to them?

TE: As long as it takes. Let's take Rosangela's self-pity as an example. The very first step is she had to recognize what was happening. Self-pity can easily be understood as being something else. (pride is another example of this; we are phenomenal at misdiagnosing pride). This involves a mental perception. Our ability to perceive things is dependent upon many factors.

MM: Are ingrained habits really the source of one's inability to grasp what God is clearly telling them?

TE: That may be possible, but it wouldn't be the primary reason. It could be a contributing factor, which is easy to see. For example, if a bad habit one has is not getting enough sleep, that could easily be a source of one's inability to grasp what God is saying.

You said, “It takes time for certain ways of thought to change. When one is accustomed to think in a certain way, it can be very difficult for the mind to think of things in a different way.” Is this the “primary reason” why people have such a hard time understanding God’s will? Is it their habitual thought patterns that make it hard for God to get through to them, to reveal to them their sinful habits?

 Originally Posted By: Tom
MM: Are ingrained habits really the source of one's inability to grasp what God is clearly telling them? Please post inspired statements to support this idea. Thank you.

TE: There are many statements which talk about how important it is that we have a clear mind to understanding God. I'm sure you're aware of them. Anything that impacts our ability to have a clean mind would impact our ability to understand what God is telling us.

Are mind-clouding habits the reason why God is unable to get through to them? Is this the reason why they are dull of hearing, why they continue to practice certain sinful behaviors and habits? Would it be too painful for God to plainly tell them before they experience the miracle of rebirth? Is this the reason why people are born again with certain sinful habits still in tact, still uncrucified?

6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

 Originally Posted By: Tom
TE: The following insights do not encourage me to agree with your observations. God does not hold back revealing certain truths because it would be too painful. He lays it out clearly and plainly. There is no room for doubt or confusion. The only question is - This is the way, will ye walk therein?

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

TE: I think you're misinterpreting the statement you cited. We've already talked about this. There are many things we don't know about ourselves. God can't reveal them to us all at once or we'd be undone (which is what happens to the wicked). So instead He reveals things to us bit by bit, as we are able to deal with them. The more willing we are to cooperate with God, the quicker He can heal us. But if we miss something, He'll bring us around to the same point until we get it.

The insights quoted above do not agree with your observations. She does not portray God as unwilling to reveal certain defects or deformities because it would be too painful. On the contrary, she says the exact opposite. “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.” How could she put it any clearer? The truth is - God does not wait until after people are born again to lay bare the defects and deformities of their character.

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #100175
06/25/08 04:53 PM
06/25/08 04:53 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
You said, “It takes time for certain ways of thought to change. When one is accustomed to think in a certain way, it can be very difficult for the mind to think of things in a different way.” Is this the “primary reason” why people have such a hard time understanding God’s will?


It's certainly a primary reason people have difficulty understanding truth. One can present the truth, explain it clearly, and yet it is not understood.

 Quote:
Is it their habitual thought patterns that make it hard for God to get through to them, to reveal to them their sinful habits?


Not so much that the thought patters are habitual, but that they fall along certain lines. For example, if you are used to thinking of a certain thing as literal when it's really a metaphor, it may take you quite a long time to realize the meaning of the metaphor.

Regarding our minds not being clear, that can certainly be a factor. I gave an example of that.

Regarding your interpretation of the statement from SC 29, I don't think it is accurate. You are suggesting an interpretation, to my mind, which agrees with neither what EGW has written elsewhere, with common sense or reason, with the Scriptures, or with anyone's actual experience. I agree with Rosangela's explanation of this statement.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #100297
06/27/08 09:08 PM
06/27/08 09:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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TE: For example, if you are used to thinking of a certain thing as literal when it's really a metaphor, it may take you quite a long time to realize the meaning of the metaphor.

MM: Is this an example of a sinful habit the Holy Spirit is unable to reveal because the person is so accustomed to seeing it in the wrong light?

Also, if SC 29 does not mean what it plainly says, why did she write it? Where does she articulate your idea - that God cannot reveal certain sinful habits until after a person is born again because their sinful habits and thought make it impossible for them to grasp the truth.

The following passages reiterate SC 29:

 Quote:
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on “kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.” (SD 300)

We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. (5T 47)

But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defective traits of character] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein. (RH 10-5-1897)

You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. (SC 49)

In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ has given a definition of true sanctification. He lived a life of holiness. He was an object lesson of what His followers are to be. We are to be crucified with Christ, buried with Him, and then quickened by His Spirit. Then we are filled with His life. (3SM 202)

The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. (DA 172)

In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then “the righteousness of the law” will “be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:4. And the language of the soul will be: “O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day.” Psalm 119:97. (GC 468)

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #100316
06/28/08 04:18 AM
06/28/08 04:18 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
TE: For example, if you are used to thinking of a certain thing as literal when it's really a metaphor, it may take you quite a long time to realize the meaning of the metaphor.

MM: Is this an example of a sinful habit the Holy Spirit is unable to reveal because the person is so accustomed to seeing it in the wrong light?


No.

 Quote:
Also, if SC 29 does not mean what it plainly says, why did she write it?


It means what it says, just not what you think it says. I agree with Rosangela's explanation to you regarding this passage.

 Quote:
Where does she articulate your idea - that God cannot reveal certain sinful habits until after a person is born again because their sinful habits and thought make it impossible for them to grasp the truth.


Since you didn't express my idea quite accurately, I can't give you an answer to your question. However, in regards to what I actually have said, Rosangela has cited passages for you and explained their meaning in a way I agree with.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #100367
06/30/08 05:01 PM
06/30/08 05:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, are you saying you do not agree with the following - "God cannot reveal certain sinful habits until after a person is born again because their sinful habits and thoughts make it impossible for them to grasp the truth."

If you disagree with this insight, then what do you believe? And, please, just answer the question. Do not expect me to go back over this thread and piece it together for myself. It would be a lot easier for me if you would simply, clearly, and plainly state what you believe. Thank you. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you.

PS - Just in case you are unclear as to what I'm asking you to do, here it is: Does God wait until after a person is born again to reveal certain sinful habits and thoughts? If so, why does God wait to reveal them?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #100373
06/30/08 06:02 PM
06/30/08 06:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
To answer your question, no, I do not agree with the statement in quotes.

I believe God can reveal sinful habits anytime, but we may not understand what He is saying, for reasons which both Rosangela and I have mentioned.

Before we are born again, God reveals to us representative sins, not as an arbitrary requirement God has, but because it is necessary that we understand and accept that we have been forgiven. That's the only way healing can happen. It's no different than in a relationship between people. If I do something wrong, and the wrong thing that I've done has caused me to misunderstand your actions and misjudge you, it's necessary that I see that truth in regards to what you really did, and that I recognize my error, and understand and accept your forgiveness in regards to it in order for our relationship to be healed.

God reveals to us what is necessary in order for our relationship with Him to be healed. After we are born again, He continues revealing more things to us. It's not necessary, or even possible, for God to reveal everything to us at once. For one thing, we couldn't bear it. For another, we wouldn't understand what He was saying. In order to understand some truths, it's necessary to understand other truths first.

Have you studied developmental psychology? Are you familiar with Piaget? If so, you are familiar with experiments which Piaget did which demonstrated that as one matures, one things about things differently.

So in a spiritual sense. When one can recognize as a sin later on in one's development, would not have even been recognized as a sin earlier. Rosangela gave the example of self-pity. God could have revealed the behavior to her, but she would not have recognized it as sin, because her mind wasn't working that way; she had not yet matured to that place, similar to how a child doesn't understand conservation of mass until the child reaches a certain level of maturity.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #100405
07/01/08 11:18 PM
07/01/08 11:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Quote:
MM: Does God wait until after a person is born again to reveal certain sinful habits and thoughts? If so, why does God wait to reveal them?

TE: I believe God can reveal sinful habits anytime, but we may not understand what He is saying, for reasons which both Rosangela and I have mentioned. . . . God reveals to us what is necessary in order for our relationship with Him to be healed. After we are born again, He continues revealing more things to us.

Is sinful self-pity an example of a habit God waits to reveal until after rebirth?

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #100407
07/02/08 12:36 AM
07/02/08 12:36 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM: Does God wait until after a person is born again to reveal certain sinful habits and thoughts? If so, why does God wait to reveal them?

TE: I believe God can reveal sinful habits anytime, but we may not understand what He is saying, for reasons which both Rosangela and I have mentioned. . . . God reveals to us what is necessary in order for our relationship with Him to be healed. After we are born again, He continues revealing more things to us.

Is sinful self-pity an example of a habit God waits to reveal until after rebirth?


It's an example of a sinful habit He can reveal anytime, but of which we might not understand what He is saying.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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