|
Forums118
Topics9,224
Posts196,102
Members1,325
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
5 registered members (dedication, Karen Y, 3 invisible),
2,537
guests, and 8
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10773
09/12/04 11:46 AM
09/12/04 11:46 AM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Guilt is the focus of a lot of the efforts in modern psychiatry and psychology. Yesterday I ran across the following points regarding guilt on the site of Pastor O'Ffill, an SDA evangalist and author, and they made me pause and think. Can I get your input on the issue in general from a Biblical perspective and also your comments on the pastor's points. quote:
1. A Christian may expect to feel guilty. We should not feel guilty about feeling guilty!
2. We should generallly regard guilt as a result and not as a cause. The Christian seeks to identify its root cause and accepts God's gift of repentance and forgiveness.
3. Guilt comes in two forms: "godly" and "worldly." Godly sorrow brings improvement and growth in the Christian life, while worldly sorrow tends to be superficial and blocks the gospel from addressing the real cause of the problem.
4. "Toxic guilt" can creep into our lives. Keeping the conscience educated by the Word of God and following through with repentance will keep guilt washed away and minimize the possibility of a warped conscience.
5. A clear conscience does not mean that we will avoid scars from our past. We may have to carry them until Jesus returns and makes all things new.
6.These points are from the book, “Expect Great Things” and are found in chapter 7, which is entitled, "Expect to Feel Guilty". You may obtain a copy of Expect Great Things online.
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10774
09/12/04 05:55 PM
09/12/04 05:55 PM
|
Posting New Member
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
U.S.
|
|
I'll take number one: 1. A Christian may expect to feel guilty. We should not feel guilty about feeling guilty! I look at the feeling of guilt as being our conscious that tells us when we have done wrong. We don't want to get rid of this as it is like the small voice from God directing us to repentance. How did Abel know so well the plan of salvation?--Adam taught it to his children and grandchildren. And the apostle says that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." After Adam had sinned, a feeling of terror seized him. A constant dread was upon him; shame and remorse tortured his soul. In this state of mind he wished to be as far removed as possible from the presence of God, whom he had so loved to meet in his Eden home. But the Lord followed this conscience-stricken man, and while he condemned the sin of which Adam had been guilty, gave him words of gracious promise. In pronouncing the curse upon the deceiver, God had said: "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." {ST, December 23, 1886 par. 4} Had he felt nothing he would never know he had done wrong in a way that tells him that doing wrong has "changed his life" and his life needs to be made right again. When one does not feel guilt any longer when he does wrong it shows that he has turned aside the promping of the Holy Spirit many times and he has become cold to feeling guilty over sin. This is a very dangerous situation to be in. ![[Pray or Praying or Prayer]](graemlins/pray.gif)
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10775
09/16/04 12:35 AM
09/16/04 12:35 AM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Excellent thoughts Marie. Please keep going to the other points if you can spare the time.
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10776
09/16/04 02:02 PM
09/16/04 02:02 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
While we’re waiting for Marie, I have a few thoughts. During the 1888 crises and in later years, for example, during the Alpha Apostasy, Ellen White pled with the brethren on both sides to humble their hearts and make deep and thorough confessions to each other. What was happening then is the same testing that God sends to each of us individually and, at times, corporately, which is this: We all are born with certain hostilities and cultivate certain hostilities to each other and to God. The men who were on the wrong side of the issue in 1888 had these tendencies just like we do. (So did Jones and Waggoner, although to some extent J&W had made greater advances towards overcoming them.) Their message was calculated by God to reveal to the rest of the brethren their deficiencies of character and the sufficiency of the righteousness of Christ. It was intended to lead to repentance by showing the glory of the character of God in contrast to their lack of love and grace. If the brethren then would have acknowledged the heaven sent message, they would have begun to see their deficiencies. Heartfelt confessions would have been made and the Spirit would have done a mighty work. I’m concerned that most of us are like the brethren who refused to see their deficiencies and continued to backbite and find fault rather than examining their own hearts. This is where guilt comes in. I’m impressed with the truth that the outpouring of the latter rain MUST be preceded by deep, heartfelt remorse and confession. In Zechariah we have this picture of the latter rain in chapters 12 and 13 (reproduced below at the end of the post): At the end, God will open a fountain of blood to cleanse the final generation. We will look on the One our sins have pierced – sins of callousness and pride and lust. If we allow the Spirit to move on our hearts, we will feel guilt to the core of our being, knowing that He suffered because of us. We will mourn bitterly as one mourns for an only child. But unlike the suffering of Christ, we will still sense that we are held close to the heart of God and that ‘underneath are the everlasting arms’. God’s message is one of repentance, but also of comfort. This is how guilt is truly dealt with. God says, “Comfort, comfort ye my people.” In our tears and sorrow over the pain and hurt our callousness has caused Christ and others, we have the assurance of comfort that our “iniquity is pardoned”. This is the only release from guilt, and the good news is that when we reach this level of repentance where we feel the pain we have caused Christ and others to the depth of our being, then we will not only be comforted but Spirit filled. The promise immediately follows – ‘the voice of one who cries in the wilderness, ‘Prepare ye the way of the Lord’ – we will be fitted to have a part in bearing the long awaited message of Elijah. quote:
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. Zech 12:9 – 13:1.
40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:1-3.
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10777
09/17/04 03:36 AM
09/17/04 03:36 AM
|
Posting New Member
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
U.S.
|
|
I can be rather dense some time so please bare with me.
In the Quote:
___________________________________
2. We should generallly regard guilt as a result and not as a cause. The Christian seeks to identify its root cause and accepts God's gift of repentance and forgiveness.
____________________________________
Quilt comes as a result of doing wrong.
Is this not the same as:
Quilt comes as a cause of doing sin?
To me they are one in the same.
But like I said, I can be rather dense sometime.
On the last part of the statement....
I once heard that there is only one difference between the sinner and the Christian. It was not that one sinned and the other did not,
(even though this should be the goal of the Christian) but the difference was that the Christian got up again and the sinner stayed down.
Now why is this?
As I see it, it is because of the most important thing we can have for a goal. It is not overcoming sin, for that is a result of the most important thing, and that is to have a real relationship with Christ. If we do have this, then like Peter we can pray for forgiveness and be so sorry and "know" that Christ loves us so much that He will indeed forgive us. If we do not have that relationship we will not feel it is worth while for us to ask for forgiveness. One reason is that we will not fully believe "in" Christ, it takes a relationship to believe, for then comes faith. The other reason is that satan will keep you down by telling you that you have done something too evil to forgive, which is a awful lie that keeps many from coming back to God.
How we respond to sinning and the temptations of satan to give up all depend on what kind of relationship we have with Jesus, because that determines the faith we have in Him as our Saviour and friend.
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10778
09/17/04 03:59 AM
09/17/04 03:59 AM
|
Posting New Member
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35
U.S.
|
|
3. Guilt comes in two forms: "godly" and "worldly." Godly sorrow brings improvement and growth in the Christian life, while worldly sorrow tends to be superficial and blocks the gospel from addressing the real cause of the problem. ==================================================================== I believe this is true. We see guilt in both Peter and Judus. One lived and one died. One did God's will and one took his life. One was forgiven and the other was not. One had a relationship with Christ with true love and the other did not. One was selfless and one was selfish. I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. (Whole Chapter: Romans 9 In context: Romans 9:1-3) 2 Corinthians 6:10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything. (Whole Chapter: 2 Corinthians 6 In context: 2 Corinthians 6:9-11) The truly repentent will have great anguish over his sin, but also know that rejoicing is just around the corner for Christ will forgive. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Many who teach that the law of God is not binding upon man, urge that it is impossible for him to obey its precepts. But if this were true, why did Adam suffer the penalty of transgression? The sin of our first parents brought guilt and sorrow upon the world, and had it not been for the goodness and mercy of God, would have plunged the race into hopeless despair. Let none deceive themselves. "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. The law of God can no more be transgressed with impunity now than when sentence was pronounced upon the father of mankind. {PP 61.3} The mourning here brought to view is true heart sorrow for sin. . . . As one is drawn to behold Jesus uplifted on the cross, he discerns the sinfulness of humanity. He sees that it is sin which scourged and crucified the Lord of glory. He sees that, while he has been loved with unspeakable tenderness, his life has been a continual scene of ingratitude and rebellion. He has forsaken his best Friend, and abused heaven's most precious gift. He has crucified to himself the Son of God afresh, and pierced anew that bleeding and stricken heart. He is separated from God by a gulf of sin that is broad and black and deep, and he mourns in brokenness of heart. Such mourning "shall be comforted." God reveals to us our guilt that we may flee to Christ, and through Him be set free from the bondage of sin, and rejoice in the liberty of the sons of God. In true contrition we may come to the foot of the cross, and there leave our burdens. . . . {SD 302.2}
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10779
09/17/04 09:49 AM
09/17/04 09:49 AM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Marie, above you say that the most important goal is not overcoming sin but having a relationship with Christ. In my mind, when I'm faced with a temptation, I resist not because I want to overcome, but because I know about the damage it will do to my relationship with Christ. A very wise old lady once said something like this: 'One small sin persistently cherished will eventually nutralize all the power of the gospel'. But in your last post I think your quote by that same person captures well what I was getting at above, which is that we should expect our sense of guilt to intensify over time as we come to better understand what our actions have caused Christ: quote:
He [the sinner turned saint] sees that, while he has been loved with unspeakable tenderness, his life has been a continual scene of ingratitude and rebellion. He has forsaken his best Friend, and abused heaven's most precious gift. He has crucified to himself the Son of God afresh, and pierced anew that bleeding and stricken heart. He is separated from God by a gulf of sin that is broad and black and deep, and he mourns in brokenness of heart. Such mourning "shall be comforted".
We should also expect our gratitude and praise to intensify as we see the mercy of God in our lives. "He who is forgiven much, loves much".
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10780
09/17/04 10:02 AM
09/17/04 10:02 AM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Note the prophesy below regarding the experience of those who escape the false doctrines of spiritual Babylon. quote:
31:7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
. . . .
31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn. Jeremiah 31:7, 9.
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10781
09/23/04 03:12 AM
09/23/04 03:12 AM
|
Posting New Member
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 38
Australia
|
|
quote:
Marie
When one does not feel guilt any longer when he does wrong it shows that he has turned aside the prompting of the Holy Spirit many times and he has become cold to feeling guilty over sin. This is a very dangerous situation to be in.
Mm, an interesting concept. I guess it depends on how one defines guilt. In my case, the only time I feel guilty is when I deliberately sin, which through the guidance of the Holy Spirit does not tend to happen very often. When I make a mistake or lose my temper etc, I do not feel guilty. It was not pre-meditated; for various reasons it just happened. This does not mean that I have turned aside the prompting of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the Holy Spirit “GENTLY” convicts my spirit of the wrong that I have done. He does this ever so gently, in a way that is not condemning or blaming. As a result, I do not feel guilty. As a result, I admit that I have done wrong, take His advice and thank Him for His guidance and continuing presence in my life. Maybe I am weird, but I feel so blessed when the Lord is by my side guiding me in the direction that He wants me to go.
I grew up in an environment where physical and mental abuse was the norm and I have had more than my share of toxic guilt and shame. I cannot describe the awesome feelings I had when I realised that I had a Heavenly Father who really loved “me”, a Father who was interested in me, a Father who was not a harsh disciplinarian, a Father who would not heap shame and guilt upon His child, a Father who was just and merciful.
quote:
Mark
In Zechariah we have this picture of the latter rain in chapters 12 and 13 (reproduced below at the end of the post): At the end, God will open a fountain of blood to cleanse the final generation. We will look on the One our sins have pierced – sins of callousness and pride and lust. If we allow the Spirit to move on our hearts, we will feel guilt to the core of our being, knowing that He suffered because of us.
Where does it say in the Bible that we should feel “guilt to the core of our being knowing that He suffered because of us?” Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I do not feel guilty that Christ suffered for me. I do however, cry and feel grieved in my spirit during communion and when I reflect on the suffering that Jesus went through. On the other hand, I feel extremely grateful to Jesus for who He is and what He has done for me.
Hope this all makes sense
|
|
|
Re: Guilt - What does the Bible have to say.
#10782
09/24/04 11:57 PM
09/24/04 11:57 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Hi Shelley:
"Remorse to the core" rather than "guilty to the core" might be a better way to put it. I was basing it on the passage above that says we will look on the one we have pierced and mourn bitterly.
Wouldn't you say that the picture in Zech is one of intense grief? Call it what you like, the feelings Zechariah describes are deep, intense and unpleasant in one way but comforting in another. The mourning part indicates comfort I think. Have you ever been emotionally distressed but unable to cry, and then later on finally had the relief of weeping? For me, it's much more tolerable to be able to express and/or vent the grief I feel through tears than it is to feel it without any release.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
