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Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth #111283
04/06/09 12:41 AM
04/06/09 12:41 AM
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Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
I looked at pass discussion and I couldn't find any topic relating to this question. However if there is one, do direct me to it.

I was wondering for Christ to die at the cross, He had to be mortal. For if Christ is immortal, then He wouldn't of been capable of dying. I always heard that His divinity was "quiet-cient"(did not used his divine power). But having his immortality only in the back burner, doesn't it makes Him still immortal and uncapable of dying? I know that He died because the Bible says so. I don't question that. So there's a dimension that I don't understand.

Where in scripture it talks about Jesus divine nature covered, or taken out at the incarnation? And does it say something about His immortality?

Also, since we're talking about Jesus nature on earth, in Scripture it talks that Jesus maintain His Divine Authority for He told Satan a few time to get behind Him, and gave authority to His disciples to cast out devils in his name. So this shows that He did maintain some divine attributes.

So what did He keep and what was left behind, or it wasn't left behind, but His divinity was clothed with human nature?


Blessings
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Elle] #111285
04/06/09 02:31 AM
04/06/09 02:31 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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Originally Posted By: Elle


So what did He keep and what was left behind, or it wasn't left behind, but His divinity was clothed with human nature?


im sure others can answer this better than i. Jesus was fully God and also became fully human. He had His full divinity but never exercised it. how He was able to die and His divinity not die is a mystery we have to take on faith. some things our fallen human nature will not be able to understand this side of heaven. and we may never be able to understand it in heaven...


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: teresaq] #111291
04/06/09 02:39 PM
04/06/09 02:39 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Deep waters, Elle. A few quick thoughts. Maybe more later.

First of all, the word you were looking for is "quiescent." "Dormant" is a common English word we use to convey a similar idea.

Jesus Christ had the prerogatives of divinity, but didn't use them, is a way the thought is often put (among Adventists).

I think the following might be useful to consider:

Quote:
When Jesus was awakened to meet the storm, He was in perfect peace. There was no trace of fear in word or look, for no fear was in His heart. But He rested not in the possession of almighty power. It was not as the "Master of earth and sea and sky" that He reposed in quiet. That power He had laid down, and He says, "I can of Mine own self do nothing." John 5:30. He trusted in the Father's might. It was in faith--faith in God's love and care--that Jesus rested, and the power of that word which stilled the storm was the power of God.(DA 336)


Also:

Quote:
Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible.(5 SDABC 1113)


Regarding Scripture, a number of times Jesus was describes as "the life" and in similar terms.

The concept is similar to His taking our sinful nature upon His sinless nature. There is a blending of two natures. He takes the one while retaining the other. So while Christ, of Himself, was immortal, He became mortal, as far as His humanity is concerned, by virtue of taking our nature. Similarly Christ, of Himself, could not be tempted, but by virtue of taking our nature, He was able to be tempted in all points as we are.

Pretty mind-bending stuff you're asking about; this and "the Trinity." What's next? smile


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #111301
04/06/09 04:30 PM
04/06/09 04:30 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom
Jesus Christ had the prerogatives of divinity, but didn't use them, is a way the thought is often put (among Adventists).

Regarding Scripture, a number of times Jesus was describes as "the life" and in similar terms.

The concept is similar to His taking our sinful nature upon His sinless nature. There is a blending of two natures. He takes the one while retaining the other. So while Christ, of Himself, was immortal, He became mortal, as far as His humanity is concerned, by virtue of taking our nature. Similarly Christ, of Himself, could not be tempted, but by virtue of taking our nature, He was able to be tempted in all points as we are.

I need scriptures, however, I did find a few which I'll post later. I'm not going to base my believes elsewhere but scripture. I think I express that clearly previously. Despite, the EGW quote you posted here, does not address my question here. What's .(5 SDABC 1113)? Is that a EGW quote? It's the Bible commentary right.

This logic is very poor and that's what I was taught. This doesn't make sence to say that He's at the same time immortal and mortal. He either is one or the other when He was on earth. If Christ was a blend of divine and human, then what attributes of divinity did He possess? And which one did He not possess? We see that He did have authority over Satan and He used that Authority.

This type of reasoning would bring to the conclusion that only his body was dead and his divinity was not. The Bible says, "God is Spirit", so His spirit was not? So was He in heaven when he died? No, for the scriptures says that He haven't ascended to heaven yet when He appeared to Mary. So where was His omni-present, omniscence, omni-potent, self-existent, and immortality go once He died? All I can think, is that He didn't have it to start with. But I want to see scripture to tell me that.

According to the Bible when you are dead, you have no knowledge of what is happening, your spirit(the breath of life) goes back to God, and your body slowly decays back to dust. This is a True man's death. So if Jesus was 100% man, then He needed to die a 100% man's death. We know according to scripture that He gaved his spirit(breath of life) back to God before he died. So that shows to me that He didn't have self-existence and depended on the breath of life like any other man to be alive.

There's something that we are not grabbing, something reveal in scripture that is overlooked. If there's no better explaination than the one you gave me, then we should bring all the scriptures relating to this topic and ponder on these.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Pretty mind-bending stuff you're asking about; this and "the Trinity." What's next? smile
Tom, we need to study for ourselves. The Trinity is very foundamental as a doctrine and crusial. The Catholic based all their doctrines on the Trinity, so why wouldn't I ponder on it.


Blessings
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Elle] #111302
04/06/09 04:53 PM
04/06/09 04:53 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Tom
Pretty mind-bending stuff you're asking about; this and "the Trinity." What's next?
Tom, we need to study for ourselves. The Trinity is very foundamental as a doctrine and crusial. The Catholic based all their doctrines on the Trinity, so why wouldn't I ponder on it.


i think you misunderstood tom here. he was not criticizing you, but merely pointing out that you were delving into difficult subjects to understand.

i dont know how much "scripture" would change your mind since you seem to be clearly coming from an sda antitrinitarian position based on several of your posts. i have been to some of those websites and from what i have seen one of their tactics is to say that ellen whites writings were tampered with, and the second is to say that we are to be going by the scriptures and not the sop, anyway.

the problem with this is that they use the sop to back their conclusions. so they apparently feel they only are qualified to know which writings were not tampered with and how to "rightly" use the sop.

i would like to point out that every where you go, the people who want to say ellen whites writings were tampered with are the people who want to get around something she was very clear about.

i would also like to point out that you use the sop when it conveniences you. so it looks like you are setting yourself up as the judge of when it can and cant be used.

using logic in the case of God is not the best approach i would think.

but by all means lets go through the scriptures and use all the texts that would be relevant.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Elle] #111303
04/06/09 04:56 PM
04/06/09 04:56 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Some Bible verses which could throw light on this subject, Elle.

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1: 14) – God became human.

"’They shall call His name Immanuel,’ which is translated, ‘God with us’" (Matthew 1:23). The name implies that, when Christ became human, He didn’t divest Himself of His divinity, but was, at the same time, God and man. “God was manifested in the flesh” (1 Tim. 3:16).

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). Christ is still a man. Divinity and humanity were united in one Person forever.

“Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ ... But He was speaking of the temple of His body” (John 2:19). Christ said He would raise His own body. So, humanity died, but divinity did not die.

Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Rosangela] #111310
04/06/09 07:27 PM
04/06/09 07:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
This logic is very poor and that's what I was taught. This doesn't make sence to say that He's at the same time immortal and mortal. He either is one or the other when He was on earth.


It seems to me that it is this logic which is "very poor." By this logic, Christ could not have been both God and man;"He either is one or the other when He was on earth."

If partaking of human nature makes it possible for Christ to both be God and man simultaneously, why would there be a problem in asserting that He was both immortal and mortal? The same paradox comes up in regards to whether or not Christ could be tempted. As God, He could not be tempted, but as man, He was tempted in all points as we are.

Regarding Scriptures, I think Rosangela's is a nice list. There are, in addition, a number of references from John asserting that Christ was "the life," that life was in Him, that He is the "resurrection and the life," and so forth.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #111314
04/06/09 09:49 PM
04/06/09 09:49 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom
E:This logic is very poor and that's what I was taught. This doesn't make sence to say that He's at the same time immortal and mortal. He either is one or the other when He was on earth.

T: It seems to me that it is this logic which is "very poor." By this logic, Christ could not have been both God and man;"He either is one or the other when He was on earth.
If partaking of human nature makes it possible for Christ to both be God and man simultaneously, why would there be a problem in asserting that He was both immortal and mortal?

To me, having immortality and mortality at the same time is not possible
Originally Posted By: Tom
The same paradox comes up in regards to whether or not Christ could be tempted. As God, He could not be tempted, but as man, He was tempted in all points as we are.
That's a good point. I had brought that question a few time in the Christ Desired and Lusted to sin? thread, but no one answered me.

If we ponder on this searching scripture that would make everything harmonize, then which attributes of His divinity would prohibit Jesus to be tempted? These divine attributes wouldn't effect temptation:omni-present, omni-potent, immortality, omniescence, and self-existent.

If Jesus is stripped off of His Divine attributes, can he still be considered as Divine? For sure, if he has not the divine attributes, then He can die like a man would.

Would love, self-sacrifice, unselfish, etc... be considered Divine character as opposed to attributes? Now I see these divine natural characteristic would prevent Jesus to be tempted. If these are quiesience, then it makes if possible for Jesus to sin right? And possible for Him to die?

Now I wonder, if He even had these divine characteristics at the incarnation. At first, that's what I thought, now I'm leaning more towards post-laps in the understanding that He had 100%human natural tendencies and charactrer. I came across a text that said that had to be so but I can't find it right now.
Originally Posted By: Bible
The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Luk 1:35 (John the baptist was also filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, and now, I'm wondering if that is the same for Christ.)

So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1Cor 15:45 (that one, I still don't have a full grip)

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, Rom 8:3 (Likeness can be taken in two ways.)


What my original question was, what divine dimension Jesus had when he came on earth? I'm thinking maybe His Divine attributes was taken from Him at the incarnation so to make it possible for Him to die like a man, but He was still 100% Divine. Is that possible to be Divine without the divine attributes?
Originally Posted By: Bible
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
To me this is saying that Jesus Christ had to be mortal to put on immortality and so to give us the hope in the resurrection to come. Isn't He our example? Live like a man, Die like a man, and resurrected like a man.

And Paul says thanks be to God(Father), which gives us the victory through Jesus (death, and resurrection). It is through the Father's power who made Jesus victorious. Jesus submitted Himselft to the Father's will, so that's how He showed the Father's character to all, and was able to live the sinless life to His death, and the Father resurrect Him.

If we look at the first temptation of Jesus by the Devil, wasn't Jesus tempted concerning in using His authority. We know Jesus came with authority over the Devil and He used that and He was not sinning in doing so. The other two temptations, is typical for a man: of worship and to tempt the Father.
Originally Posted By: Bible

Luk 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.



Blessings
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: Rosangela] #111315
04/06/09 11:06 PM
04/06/09 11:06 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Some Bible verses which could throw light on this subject, Elle.

.....“Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ ... But He was speaking of the temple of His body” (John 2:19). Christ said He would raise His own body. So, humanity died, but divinity did not die.
Tx Rosangela, for bringing in Bible text. The last one you brought, was something that I wasn't clear on. John 2:19 Jesus says that "I" will raise it up. That's interesting and seem contradictory to most if not all other scriptures. Could it be that Jesus was saying "I" to mean The Father in some way. Anyway, I'm not grabbing this one because it seem contradicting all the other text below which is over 30. According to the scriptures below, it was the Father that raised Jesus from the dead.
Originally Posted By: Bible
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Cr 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
2Cr 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


When I was finding these quotes, I notice 3 text that reads "raised again"???? That's an interesting wording. Do you have any light to what it means?


Blessings
Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth [Re: teresaq] #111316
04/06/09 11:39 PM
04/06/09 11:39 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: teresaq
i dont know how much "scripture" would change your mind since you seem to be clearly coming from an sda antitrinitarian position based on several of your posts. i have been to some of those websites and from what i have seen one of their tactics is to say that ellen whites writings were tampered with, and the second is to say that we are to be going by the scriptures and not the sop, anyway.

Well Teresa, what you are saying is false. I did not come on this forum with anti-trinitarian position, and today I'm still undecided on this issue and still am studying, and won't jump in hasty position.

I came to the forum as an open book and as a student. You can go down my posts and see there was an evolution in me discovering reality of the Church and this forum. I came here initially to study prophecies with the Bible and I made that clear with everyone and within my posts is the prove.

When I came to the realization of our Church being confuse with understanding end-time prophecies, only then I started to wonder why? Then the Lord showed many of our Church weaknesses. One big weaknesses is to mainly SOP to prove doctrinal views. To prove once doctrinal views, very few are using scriptures here and seems there is more support found by using SOP which makes everyone very divided on issues, because it seems you can find SOP quotes to support almost any views.

Then I read posts concerning the tempering of EGW writings, I see it is not being in the realm of improbability. EGW says very clearly that our Church will apostasize and I'm sure you can't deny that. So why do you think, it is impossible that in the spirit of apostasie, that our leaders would of changed a few words here and there, and add chapter or take away some paragraph to go with their apostasy so that we may not be considered as a "cult"?

However, if you noticed, I'm not dwelling in this and have left it behind. It bothered me at first, but hey, what else would you expect as a tactive from the Devil. Perfect way to divide the Church on issues. Anyway, what will be will be and I'm not going to waste my little time left with this. I came here to be more grounded on Scripture according to EGW counselling to be prepared for the end-time, so using SOP never was my angle in discoving truth to start with.

However, with this discovery came a new quest, and it was to review all doctrines. So that's what I'm doing, and want to see all doctrines from the Bible alone.

Originally Posted By: Teresa
the problem with this is that they use the sop to back their conclusions. so they apparently feel they only are qualified to know which writings were not tampered with and how to "rightly" use the sop.

i would like to point out that every where you go, the people who want to say ellen whites writings were tampered with are the people who want to get around something she was very clear about.

i would also like to point out that you use the sop when it conveniences you. so it looks like you are setting yourself up as the judge of when it can and cant be used.
Concerning the people you are talking about, well I don't know them nor their motives and I won't comment on that.

However, for what you say about me, is again totally a false accusation. I used one SOP quote since I've been here, not to prove any doctrinal points or views, but just to expand the born again experience physiologically since EGW brought in nice details. And this quote was used by Pastor Liversidge in the same manner. The born again doctrine is well supported by scriptures which I have quoted when showing the importance of being born again.

Quote:
using logic in the case of God is not the best approach i would think.

but by all means lets go through the scriptures and use all the texts that would be relevant.
To understand things, you can't do it but by the means of logic or reasonings. There's a difference to use fancy logic to try to prove a point, versus trying to understand scriptures by using reasonings. I'm not using logic to point my view as if you read this thread, I have no view in this. I'm raising a question and saying there something I don't understand.

Scriptures has to harmonize and when we see things that seems contradictory, then there's some dept that we don't understand, and that dept will bring scriptures in harmony again. So that's what I'm trying to get here. I don't want to be a superficial reader and just accept poor reasoning that doesn't make sence and doesn't hold together with other truths. The Lord invites us to reason with Him.


Blessings
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