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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: dedication]
#114654
06/12/09 04:58 AM
06/12/09 04:58 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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It's surprising how many people see God the Father with a character very different from Christ Jesus. This is a point I've been making often for awhile now. Jesus said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father," but few seem to believe it. Most don't see God as being very different than what Jesus Christ lived and taught during His ministry.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: dedication]
#114655
06/12/09 05:19 AM
06/12/09 05:19 AM
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So it seems to me the philosophers got things wrong because their focuse was on a physical unity, (which we don't agree with) and too often seemed to have missed the true unity, or oneness that exists in Godhead.  amazing the different places we pick up information from that we then add to our understanding.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: teresaq]
#114658
06/12/09 06:43 AM
06/12/09 06:43 AM
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Died February 12, 2019
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 Looks like it's hard to keep within this topic. There's 3 pages talking about the humanity of Christ, and now, there's a few pages on the Trinity subject. I understand there's Godhead concept that needs to be discussed as Christ submission or equality to the Father is within this topic. Anyway, let's try to keep within the topic.
Blessings
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: Rosangela]
#114659
06/12/09 09:14 AM
06/12/09 09:14 AM
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Colin,
Since we have discussed these EGW quotes in the past, in the Trinity threads, I’m not understanding your insistence in my commenting about them. Of course you know that I consider these expressions as figurative. I don’t think the word “begotten” can mean that God literally gave birth to Christ and, as to the expression “brought up with him,” it is also highly figurative, as the whole chapter of Prov. 8. As I said in the past, there never was a time when God existed and His wisdom didn’t, so how can anyone take anything in that chapter as implying a beginning? Sorry, didn't see that earlier discussion: This isn't just about what anyone or the church itself believes, today. This is about what we've ever believed as a church, and individually, what we believe, and why. Of course you know I believe Christ's eternal Sonship is real (thus Jn 3:16 means God gave his actual Son), but I'm well aware of the objections today to that...: yet, are we actually thinking about the issue as we should be?? Are we supposed to understand how "only begotten" could be literal?! Are we supposed to try to understand and thereby cancel that option?? - as we have done, generally - individually, as the reasoning of church and other literature has taught us to, for it cannot be understood. Do we try to fathom the incarnation?...Our church used to leave that enquiry - of how, etc - off the agenda! EGW led the way, taking Christ's Sonship, begotten of God, as simply true, and the church belief was that he was, not how he was: we didn't speak to whether it was possible, just that it was true because the Bible said so. EGW wrote a whole lot more about Christ's divine Sonship than just using Prov 8: the church today isn't ever citing her other statements on Christ being the only begotten of God, like before Lucifer fell - least not in defence of the trinity! - and I haven't seen her Sonship statements when reading church teaching of Jesus' as God. They are not used by anyone who would claim they are figurative, since they could very easily be read literally. That's uneasy, I know, so whose problem is Ellen White's apparent position on Christ's only begotten Sonship? But what I still wasn’t able to understand was your position. “Coeval” means “of the same age.” In relation to God, doesn’t this mean co-eternal (since God has always existed)? The point is, the Father did not exist before Christ, and Christ did not derive His life from the Father. This is what the Church believes. Do you agree or disagree with this position? This, as I said, excludes a literal father-son relationship, so I understand you don’t agree with this position, although you are saying now that Christ didn’t have a beginning. A literal father-son relationship presupposes a beginning, but the concept of eternity presupposes that there wasn’t a beginning. Could you please clarify? Ellen White speaks of "Christ's existence before" Bethlehem - ie. as God's pre-existent Son - being incalculable in human reckoning: in context, of him personally claiming God's name, she's saying he's God's actual, pre-existent Son, isn't she. - as her fellow church members believed, too. The Word was in the beginning with God and was God: the church is myopic in not studying the Word of God alongside the Son of God, from either the Bible or the SOP; there should perhaps be a study on that here, to make up for the church's reluctance. EGW is crystal clear on the Son of God's co-eternity with "his Father", but equally consist with him being the Son "begotten of God",...till she died; she never changed from that: there was no purported break, no change, in The Desire of Ages. The Bible itself uses this language, principally Jn 3:16. Yes, these two paragraphs thus far teach that God and the Word go back all the way together, and God's Son is God's "only begotten" Son, so that leaves the church supporting the Biblically revealed Word but not the "only begotten" Son, as literal readings. 'Our' messenger of the Lord does both, when you read everything she says. Is the church safe from criticism in its stance now, given we all still uphold the SOP? Three persons of the Godhead never was an issue for the church itself - the church is now dishonest on that point!!  - but Jesus' begotten Sonship is now, the issue: how safe is the church's Biblical stance, given Ellen White is 'still' the messenger of the Lord for us. I mean, how many in the church have dumped or stripped her of Biblical authority...? You equate co-eval with co-eternal: you shouldn't, given the literal family relationship it excludes - even if you want to - which "co-eternal" by itself doesn't exclude. Co-existent excludes a real Sonship, given there is then no co-eval factor. In that mystery of original Godliness, it would appear from Scripture that the Word of God was given the form of God as the Son of God, thus begotten of God. That's all we're told, by Bible and SOP: do we believe it? - or how much of it should be figurative since it's unexplainable?...
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: Elle]
#114661
06/12/09 12:38 PM
06/12/09 12:38 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Looks like it's hard to keep within this topic. There's 3 pages talking about the humanity of Christ, and now, there's a few pages on the Trinity subject. I understand there's Godhead concept that needs to be discussed as Christ submission or equality to the Father is within this topic. Anyway, let's try to keep within the topic. Yes, was wondering for a few days now: so this Godhead discussion fits in, you think. I'm conscious of skirting on the edge of the topic.
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: Colin]
#114662
06/12/09 12:41 PM
06/12/09 12:41 PM
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As Elle has requested us to stick with the topic of Jesus' divinity while on earth, let's try to keep to that.
If we were to summarize on the the aspects of Jesus' divinity discussed thus far, I think we might all agree (except for Colin) on the following points:
1) Jesus has always existed.
2) Jesus and God the Father are equal. Therefore, the divinity of the Father and the divinity of the Son must also be equal.
3) Divinity cannot die. God cannot die. (As I understand.)
Colin is trying to say that Jesus has always been God's son. This would imply that God and the Son are not equal, that Jesus has not always existed, and that Jesus did not become a son in Bethlehem, for He already was a son. This basically denies the divinity of Christ as outlined in the three points above.
Elle, these are all aspects of divinity, and understanding them can help us understand exactly what must have happened on the cross.
If we accept that God cannot die, that divinity is everlasting, then it should be clear that Jesus' divinity could not have died. If Jesus was not God, then He would have had no divinity. If, however, He was both God and Man, then Jesus' divinity was still present inside Him.
As someone earlier pointed out, the first temptation of Christ came to His divinity. If He were not God, then He would have been unable to change stones into bread with a single command, and therefore, it would have been no temptation to Him to try. Satan, here, gives us the proof of Jesus' divinity. Satan knew exactly who Jesus was. Although He had allowed His divinity to become imprisoned in a frail human body, and although He had voluntarily subjected His will to that of His Father, He still possessed His divinity, and could be tempted to use it.
On the cross, that divinity was again tempted...one of the last temptations of Christ. "If you are the Son of God, save yourself!" He could have done it. He could have proven to everyone His real identity. It is hard to take that kind of mocking and remain silent, when it is within your power to prove someone else wrong. Had it been me, this would have been a greater temptation than to turn the stones into bread. Someday, perhaps, we will know from Christ just which temptations were hardest for Him. I'm so thankful, however, that He did not use His divine power at that moment.
Once He was near death, He exclaimed with finality, "It is finished!" After His human body had died, the conflict with Satan was over. Perhaps had He sinned, His divinity would have perished. This is speculation. Thankfully, it never happened. Since He had never sinned, there was no need for His divinity to perish. I believe it remained alive. However, I also believe that this is not an important doctrine for us to discuss.
Whether or not Christ's divinity would have perished, makes no difference to my understanding of the Plan of Salvation. Until I'm safely on that Sea of Glass, the trivial things that are a mystery beyond human understanding should not require much of my time or focus.
A note for Colin: Naturally, Jesus' divine Sonship is eternal; but do not forget that there are TWO eternities: one past and one future. Jesus' future is to always be that of a human, for He has accepted this sacrifice for us. Jesus' past, however, did not include being human, and yet He has always existed. That is what it means to be divine: omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, and, above all, God is love.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#114666
06/12/09 02:11 PM
06/12/09 02:11 PM
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Active Member 2012
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E. Oregon, USA
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Green, you're early in the day for most of us! You're even ahead of me  Elle said the Godhead fits in this topic, but we can do these together. I agree with all three, points there, since Jesus, a name 2000-odd years old, has always been the Word of God. Yes, I sound a little different, but Jesus isn't just the Son of God! - Being Son of God is just his main identity. His deity doesn't rest on His Sonship, but his Sonship rests on being truly Son of the living God. His deity rests on being the Word of God, per Jn 1:1. A simple truth, but that's what it says: he has been with God and is himself fully "God" since the beginning - the quotes for personal distinction. That's the best we can do with Biblical relevation: more than that is speculation. Equally speculative, and somewhat unimportant, is what happend to Christ's divinity when he died, since he died for our sin and for us, and that's the clincher! Your end note for me - ta - is agreeable, tho Jesus' eternal future is, like on earth, divine and not just human (of course) - now vested, again, with all power and authority. Can we take his "only begotten" Sonship literally, next to Jn 1:1, with EGW's comments about both, and still believe him fully divine in eternity past? She did, didn't she? Also, having read this interpretation of the famous Bible texts about Jesus' deity from Ellen White, I've noticed she comments that with the incarnation he became a Son in a new sense: there was a change, a huge change, so his divine Sonship took on a new sense. Central to this thread: since divinity cannot die, who died for our sins?? That's a critical question! It's a Godhead concept issue as to whether God himself can die, since his nature is immortal. Only by God becoming flesh in the person of his Son can God personally die, being found in mortal flesh. I mean: God had to die, not just human flesh. It's another study as to whether the Father could have become flesh instead of the Son: I'd say not. On the avoidance of sinning, yes, Jesus would have lost his divinity had he sinned, but those greatest temptations were suffered by the man, Christ Jesus. He lived by faith, not by divine insight: yes, he resisted the temptation to use his divine powers, but he resisted as a man. The real trick with this issue - so thank you very much, Green, for raising it! - is what would have happened to the Godhead had Jesus sinned? Essentially, the trinity doctrine would have had a lack of numbers to make up its definition. The Godhead would have survived in the Father, so God himself would not have ceased to exist had God's Son sinned as man, but the trinity God would theoretically have ceased to exist, not so? This is indeed a critical question for the meaning and make up of the Godhead in their plan of salvation...
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: Colin]
#118823
09/06/09 12:20 AM
09/06/09 12:20 AM
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OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019
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The real trick with this issue - so thank you very much, Green, for raising it! - is what would have happened to the Godhead had Jesus sinned? Essentially, the trinity doctrine would have had a lack of numbers to make up its definition. The Godhead would have survived in the Father, so God himself would not have ceased to exist had God's Son sinned as man, but the trinity God would theoretically have ceased to exist, not so? This is indeed a critical question for the meaning and make up of the Godhead in their plan of salvation... Good point Green! Yes, if we believe that Christ had the posibility of sinning, then the trinity would had lost it's meaning, but the Godhead would still remain valid. However, to stay within the subject of this thread, let me review some texts and their meanings. 1. "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;" (John 5:26, KJV) --To me this is saying that Jesus's life was given to Him. 2. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."(Heb 2:9) --Jesus was made 100% man so He could die a death like any other man. If His divine nature was to stay afloat apart from his body, then what is the purpose of this text. To accept that His 100% divine did not die, seems very unbiblical to me which is expanded below. 3. "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who(refering to the Father) only(G3441 = alone, without a companion) hath immortality(G110 = undying, everlasting, deathlessness), dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see:(by this statement we know we are talking about the Father. Jesus said that no man has seen the Father.Jn 1:18) to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:14-16, KJV) --This text clearly tells me that the Father only has immortality. 4. "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." (Isaiah 53:10, KJV) "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:12, KJV) --Both these texts says that Christ's SOUL had to die. That means also his SPIRIT. 5."And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:46, KJV) --Jesus gave up the ghost and died like any other man, having his breath going back to His Father. 6. "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31, KJV) --Jesus's soul was in hell! 7."Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth." (Psalms 88:8, KJV) --This text tells me that Jesus couldn't raise himself. Plus I provided over 30 texts in the NT that assert that the Father raised Jesus. 8."I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." (Revelation 1:18, KJV) --Jesus assert he was dead and have the keys of death.
Blessings
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: Elle]
#118827
09/06/09 01:15 AM
09/06/09 01:15 AM
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Brazil
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Both these texts says that Christ's SOUL had to die. That means also his SPIRIT. Elle, when the soul dies, the spirit doesn't. The spirit is just the life of God in the creature (human or animal), and it returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. However, Jesus' life wasn't given to Him by God the Father. It was sustained by His own divinity. And that's why it remained at the sepulcher. "Jesus said to Mary, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.' When he closed his eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to Heaven, as many believe, or how could his words be true--'I am not yet ascended to my Father'? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher; and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again." {3SP 203.2} I marvel at Ellen White's coherence. Jesus trusted His spirit to His Father's care, but it didn't return to heaven as part of the Father's life.
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Re: Immortality and Jesus Death on the Cross & Jesus Divine Nature on Earth
[Re: Rosangela]
#118833
09/06/09 01:53 AM
09/06/09 01:53 AM
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Died February 12, 2019
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E: Both these texts says that Christ's SOUL had to die. That means also his SPIRIT.
R: Elle, when the soul dies, the spirit doesn't. The spirit is just the life of God in the creature (human or animal), and it returns to God.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. You know that "Spirit" H7306 has a very broad application. To avoid confusion and to make a distinction of meaning, I specified that Jesus' breath return to God. So therefore, I was referring to spirit as being His thoughts, emotions, and etc... The activities that goes on in his brain that died. Job 14:21; Ps 146:4; Eccl 9:5 However, Jesus' life wasn't given to Him by God the Father. It was His own. And that's why it remained at the sepulcher. Are you refering to his Immortality that remain in the sepulcher? Are you saying, because he had immortality that Jesus raised Himself up? To me scriptures clearly says differently here's where : 1. "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who(refering to the Father) only(G3441 = alone, without a companion) hath immortality(G110 = undying, everlasting, deathlessness), dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see:(by this statement we know we are talking about the Father. Jesus said that no man has seen the Father.Jn 1:18) to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:14-16, KJV) --This text clearly tells me that the Father only has immortality. 2. ."Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth." (Psalms 88:8, KJV) --This text tells me that Jesus couldn't raise himself. 3. "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;" (John 5:26, KJV) --To me this is saying that Jesus's life was given to Him. 4. " I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." Jn 5:30 5. 30+ Bible Texts that says the Father raised Jesus up : Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Cr 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
2Cr 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. For Jesus to have immortality and die and bring his immortality in his Tomb.... it doesn't make sence. It's very contradictory to have immortality and being dead. Was Jesus dead or not? Where was His immortality/life when he died?
Blessings
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