|
Forums118
Topics9,200
Posts195,678
Members1,324
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
7 registered members (TheophilusOne, Karen Y, daylily, Kevin H, dedication, 2 invisible),
2,229
guests, and 2
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Justification
#11139
10/15/04 07:47 PM
10/15/04 07:47 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
When Satan tempted Eve, he induced her to doubt God’s character. He incited her to believe God did not have her best interests at heart. He was withholding something better from her. Satan flat out declared that God was lying. When Eve believed Satan, and Adam chose to join her, the human race became rebels whose hearts were filled with doubt.
When God presented Adam and Eve with the animal skin, representing the righteousness of Christ, something very important happened of which we should take note. God presented them with His gift before they had done anything, other than run and hide from Him. This shows that the giving of salvation is independent of anything we do. It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance.
Since the wages of sin is death, Adam and Eve would have died had God not intervened. The entire human race would have perished. But God did intervene (“as soon as there was sin, there was a Savior”) by instituting the Plan of Salvation. Because of this intervention, the human race was saved. Christ in the gift of Himself to the human race gave it an existence out of Himself. God united the fallen human race with divinity and thus reconciled it with Himself. God treats everybody, not just those who believe in Him, but everybody, as though they had never sinned. He treats them as well as He treated His own Son. God does not condemn them. He does not count their sins against them. This is legal justification.
Jesus in prayer to His Father said that knowing God is eternal life. He said He finished His work by glorifying God and magnifying His name. This is another way of saying that Jesus made God’s character known. He did this by healing others and proclaiming the Good News about God. God is not the harsh, arbitrary taskmaster Satan has made Him out to be. God would rather die than allow His children to. Jesus gave the gift of eternal life to the world by revealing God’s true character to it.
The revelation is that God in Christ reached out to rescue sinners while they were still in their sins. While hating sin, God loves the sinner. In the same prayer mentioned above, Jesus said God loved us as God loved Him. This shows that God’s love is independent of our sinfulness. Knowing that God loves us as we are, speaks to our hearts that the doubts Satan snuck into our souls are false; God can be trusted.
We are saved by the revelation of God’s character, which is the same as saying we are saved by grace, since God’s grace is His goodness lavished upon its unworthy recipients. We become partakers of eternal life when we see and believe the picture painted by Jesus Christ. This experience transforms us, regenerates us. We are brought into harmony with God and His holy law. Rebellion is removed from our heart. This is justification by faith.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11140
10/15/04 10:25 PM
10/15/04 10:25 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, while it is true the love of God saves us, it is also true that the blood of Jesus saves us. Both are necessary. Both go hand in hand. God did not force Adam and Eve to take off their fig leaf garments and put on the blood stained garments of His choosing. They had to make a choice. Which they did. No love, no justification; no blood, no justification. No justification, no salvation.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11141
10/16/04 01:31 AM
10/16/04 01:31 AM
|
|
|
My take on this verse:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The minute that Adam and Eve disobeyed...they did die spiritually. They seperated themselves from God and needed to be "born again". they were then subject to the first natural death and without rebirth, destined to the second.
Just my take.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11142
10/16/04 06:18 AM
10/16/04 06:18 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" means exactly what it says. But Jesus died in our place that day instead Adam and Eve. He is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8. Sister White put it this way:
1 BC 1104
The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned. After the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed, but were definitely arranged and expressed to meet man in his fallen condition. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God. {1BC 1104.5}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11143
10/16/04 07:54 PM
10/16/04 07:54 PM
|
|
|
Like Tom said...."As soon as there was sin, there was a saviour".
Exactly what i said above in other words.
adam and Eve sinned....broke the law God had given them and that severed the conection between God and man.
The Desire of Ages----PG- 764
"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."
Adam, chose to sin knowing the result, according to the warning given him by the angel. Their sin...resulted in spiritual death.
Repentance was needed [rebirth] in order to reinstate them in their conection to God, but they had forfeited their innocence for a "fallen nature" which no longer could stroll through Eden together. They were now destined to suffer the first death....
However, the plan of salvation was in place and in God's mercy, if His plan is/was excepted, the free gift/believed, their life could be a spiritual walk with their Creator and escape the penalty of their sin ....the second death/eternal death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Praise God for His sacrifice/spilled blood to redeem this fallen mess of humanity.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11144
10/17/04 12:25 AM
10/17/04 12:25 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Charlene, I beg your pardon. I thought you were implying that the warning - "In the day ..." - referred to the spiritual death they suffered, whereas Sister White makes it clear God was referring to instant and eternal death. Thanx for the clarification.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11145
10/17/04 12:28 AM
10/17/04 12:28 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Was the death of Jesus necessary in order for God to justify forgiving our sins? Did God require the death of Jesus before He was willing or able to pardon our sins?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11146
10/17/04 12:49 AM
10/17/04 12:49 AM
|
|
|
Yes,
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald--- 09-21-86
Christ Our Sacrifice
"Many have expressed wonder that God demanded so many slain victims in the sacrificial offerings of the Jewish people; but it was to rivet in their minds the great truth that without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. A lesson was embodied in every sacrifice, impressed in every ceremony,
solemnly preached by the priest in his holy office, and inculcated by God himself,--that through the blood of Christ alone is there forgiveness of sins. How little we as a people feel the force of this great truth! How
seldom, by living, acting faith, do we bring into our lives this great truth, that there is forgiveness for the least sin, forgiveness for the greatest sin!"
God is good.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11147
10/17/04 02:44 AM
10/17/04 02:44 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Yes, the blood of Jesus makes pardon and salvation possible. But why? Why was the death of Jesus necessary? Why doesn't God simply forgive the truly penitent? Why is death the wages of sin? Is God blood thirsty?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11148
10/18/04 02:53 AM
10/18/04 02:53 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
The "blood of Christ" is synonomous with "the death of Christ" which is synonomous with "the cross" so that asking why the blood was necessary is equivalent to asking why Christ died on the cross.
The cross reveals to us the truth about:
1) God (He would rather did than see us die; He prefers risking the loss of His Son for all eternity than to see us lost)
2) Sin (The wages of sin is death; Christ was made to be sin, which resulted in His death)
3) Satan (Satan was demasked as a murderer)
4) Us (We are all would-be murderers of God)
Without the death of Christ, which is an integral part of the Plan of Salvation, the whole human race would have been lost. Thus the Spirit of Prophesy tell us that "to the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life" and "never one saint or sinner partakes of his daily blood, but he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ." "Christ by His wonderful work in giving His life restored the entire race of men to favor with God."
The death of Christ is not only necessary for the salvation of those who choose to respond to God's grace, but gives physical life ("justification of life" in Rom. 5:18) to all.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11149
10/18/04 05:22 AM
10/18/04 05:22 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Again, I agree the death of Christ on the Cross was needful and necessary, but why?
1. Why didn't God just pardon Adam and Eve and then simply restore their sinless nature?
2. Why is death the penalty for sin?
3. Why is God going to resurrect sinners and kill them in the lake of fire?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11150
10/19/04 03:12 AM
10/19/04 03:12 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
The first why question (not numbered) is what my post immediately above yours was addressing. On question 1., this is exactly what the Plan of Salvation does. God did pardon Adam and Eve, and by the Plan of Salvation, including Christ's Second Coming and the Resurrection, Adam and Eve will be receive sinless natures, assuming they're in the first resurrection. How else could God have done this? Once Adam and Eve sinned, human nature was fundamentally changed. They had believed Satan's lies, and those lies became entombed in their soul, in their psyche. The resurrection became necessary a necessary stage for the complete restoration of man. For God to make their nature sinless directly, without the resurrection, would have involved bypassing their free will. On 2, the wages of sin is death. Death is the penalty for sin because sin causes death. It's not an arbitrary penalty, but the sting of death is sin. Calvary is the oak of the acorn of sin. On 3, that would be worth a thread of its own. It's a great question! In fact, I asked that very question on another SDA forum, which you might be interesting in reading. If you would be interested, you can PM me, and I'll give you the link. If you'd like to start a thread here on it, I'd be happy to respond to it. ====== Removed quoting of post immediately previous to this one. - Daryl ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) [ October 19, 2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11151
10/18/04 04:13 PM
10/18/04 04:13 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
But, Tom, sinful nature isn't the reason why we sin, so why would the plan of salvation focus on eliminating it? I thought the main purpose of redemption is to empower us to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings sinful nature produces.
Matthew
1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
1 John
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Regarding sin and death, I believe the Bible makes it clear that the punishment for sin is death, not the natural consequence. We die because God will not let us eat the fruit of the tree of life, otherwise, sinners could live forever, the same as angels. God is responsible for death, for eliminating sin and sinners in the lake of fire - not death, not sin, not self, not Satan, not natural law.
Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Regarding death and the resurrection, I agree it needs to be studied further, perhaps on the "Hell Fire and Brimstone" thread?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11152
10/19/04 12:00 AM
10/19/04 12:00 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
But, Tom, sinful nature isn't the reason why we sin, so why would the plan of salvation focus on eliminating it? I thought the main purpose of redemption is to empower us to recognize and resist the unholy thoughts and feelings sinful nature produces.
The purpose of the Plan of Salvation I would say is primarily involved with the vindication of God in the Great Controversy. A part of the Plan of Salvation involves restoring the human race to that which was lost in Eden, which of course includes having a sinless nature.
Similarly the main purpose of redemption, I would say, is the vindication of God's character. This was accomplished for the entire Universe, except for the human race, on the cross, as the chapter "It Is Finished" eloquently explains. (From Scrpture, Col. 1:20, John 12:32, and Eph. 1:10 deal with this theme.) It is our privelege to cooperate with God in His plan to make the truth about Him be known.
To know God is life eternal, and in Christ we have a perfect revelation of Him. As we are restored to His image, and learn more and more what God is like, we have the privelge to share that knowledge with others, and to be restored to the same image, as by beholding we become changed.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11153
10/19/04 12:16 AM
10/19/04 12:16 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11154
10/23/04 04:36 PM
10/23/04 04:36 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
1SM 366
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.
1SM 397
Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11155
11/03/04 10:34 PM
11/03/04 10:34 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Bumping this, especially for DenBorg.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11156
11/04/04 05:05 PM
11/04/04 05:05 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I'm going to break a rule, about quoting a post, and see if I get away with it. I'm quoting your remarks, and honoring the request to consider them here in this thread, as the appropriate place to consider them. I don't see how else to do this, so I hope the administrator will let this slide. quote:
Greetings, Tom. Thank you again for your comments.
While I agree with your statements on Oct 12, I don't think I can agree with this statement. If all of humanity is seen as sinless in His eyes, then all of humanity would be saved. While God does not instantly destroy the wicked, all are not justified nor seen as sinless in the eyes of God.
Throughout the Bible we are told how we can be the sons and daughters of God. Throughout the Bible, the distinction is made between the sons and daughters of God and the sons and daughters of men. (Gen 6:2,4; Deut 32:8; Hosea 1:10; Job 35:8; Ps 11:4;14:2;53:2; Is 51:12; Romans 8:14,19;9:26; Gal 4:6)
Nowhere does the Bible say that all of humanity is justified. Rather the Bible talks about justification by faith. Do all of humanity have faith in Christ? No! (Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Rom 3:24,28;10:10; Gal 2:17; James 2:24)
I agree, God does not immediately wipe out sinners; otherwise you and I would have been destroyed immediately. Actually, we may never have existed because Adam and Eve would have been immediately destroyed. But who would have tempted them? For then God would have immediately destroyed Lucifer in heaven.
The reason the wicked are not immediately destroyed is not because all are justified before God. No, instead God extends grace to both the wicked and the righteous, "for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45)
I agree that further discussion on justification should be continued in the other tread you mentioned.
If you agree with the Oct. 12th statement, you should agree with the other, because they are saying the same thing. The key thing to keep in mind is that "justification" does not always mean "justification by faith." You are correct that not all are justified by faith, but the Bible does say that all are justified.
First of all, Rom. 3:23 says that "all" sinned and are justified. Rom. 5:18 says the same thing. As condemnation and judgment came upon "all men", so "justification of life" came upon "all men."
You write that if God saw all as sinless, then all would be saved. This would only be true if the reason that people were lost were because of how God saw them. But the reason people are lost is not due to how God treats them, but with how they actually are. God treats everyone as if they were righteous, as righteous as His own Son, in the sense that He gives them air, and sunshine, and all the blessings needed for life when what should happen is they should be dead. They should be dead because of sin. The wages of sin is death, and the only reason that anyone is not dead is because God graciously gives them life by virture of the death of Christ.
The following quote from the Spirit of Prophesy explains this at length:
quote:
Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son. (FW 21)
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11157
11/05/04 03:24 AM
11/05/04 03:24 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
I'm not DenBorg, so hopefully no one will mind me butting in here:
Tom, I see your point, but it's just that I'm not used to someone using the word justified in the context of secular, temporal needs. The most common use refers to justification by faith as it relates to sin and salvation.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11158
11/05/04 04:01 AM
11/05/04 04:01 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
The phrase "legal justification" is often used, although it is not in the Bible. Legal justification refers to how God regards us, not to the change that happens within the believer. There are those who believe legal justification is related to, or even the same thing, as justification by faith. For example, Desmond Ford taught that justification was legal justification by faith and denied that justification by faith had anything to do with what happens in the believer.
While "legal justification" is not used in the Bible, it does speak of "justification of life" (Romans 5:18). This justification is not justification by faith because it applies to all men, and clearly not all are justified by faith.
The Spirit of Prophesy expresses the concept in a less theological way. She says, "to the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life." "Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily food but he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ." "Christ by His wonderful work restored the entire race of men to favor with God." (from memory; maybe not perfect, but close)
The important point is that God has done something for everyone by giving them Christ. Thus the message of justification by faith is not one of "this is what God will do for you if you do such and such first" but "this is what God has done for you." For example, the emancipation proclamation legally freed the slaves, but they had to hear the good news and believe it in order to become experientially free. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that Christ signed the emancipation papers of the human race with His blood.
Jesus Christ is presented in Scripture as "the Savior of the World." When we present the Good News we tell of the one who IS the Savior of the one to whom we are speaking. He is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11159
11/13/04 05:10 AM
11/13/04 05:10 AM
|
|
|
I see a problem in some of the posts above. Tom quoted Romans 6:23 as saying the wages of sin is death. But he followed it immediately with the statement that "death is the penalty for sin." How can he equate "wages" with "penalty?" When he gets his wages at the end of the week, does he feel he is being punished? Wages are something earned, not some evil we are punished for. He even says so in the rest of the sentence started above when he says "because sin causes death." Death is caused by sin, it's an effect of sin, not a punishment for it.
The problem seems to be in the definition of "sin." There are two distinct categories of sin in scripture (see I John 5:16, 17): the things we do and the type of person which we are. There are also two distinct types of law: legislated laws and natural or scientific laws. Legislated laws are temporary, changeable, and usually man made (though God made a few such laws back in Exodus - Deuteronomy). These laws try to regulate the things we do and as Mike suggests in his post, they are arbitrary. And they carry punishments. Natural law, on the other hand, is eternal, unvariable, and not made by anyone. They describe the way the universe works. These laws are discovered, not legislated. Furthermore, there are no punishments involved. They cannot be "kept" or "broken." One either cooperates with them or suffers the consequences or effects. Obviously, the two kinds of sin derive from the two types of law. The sins we do (usually called crimes) reflect the temporary, arbitrary laws inflicted on us by a legislature, judge, parent, society, etc. Sometimes this kind of law requires the death sentence, but more often the punishment is something more mundane such as a fine, jail sentence, whipping, withholding of privileges, etc. The sins for which the wages is death are defined in I John 3:4. But here we hit a second misunderstanding. The original text in the Greek says "sin is lawlessness," an attitude reflecting the second type of law and sin outlined above. But the KJV translators rendered the text "sin is the transgression of the law," an action reflecting the first type of law and sin outlined above. Since the KJV has been the standard by which most doctrines have been derived, this mis-translation has probably caused more misunderstanding (as noted from previous posts) than any other verse in scripture. But by going back to the original of John 3:4 and making a more careful examination of Romans 6:23 should clear up the confusion on this point.
Bob Lee
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11160
11/13/04 05:11 PM
11/13/04 05:11 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Bob Lee, I like the way you explained the difference between man-made laws and natural laws and the corresponding results when we violate either one. But it wasn't clear to me where the law of God fits in, and how it relates to death and punishment.
Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
From this passage it seems pretty plain to me that we die because God barred access to the fruit of the tree of life. Was this action, on God's part, a form of punishment? Maybe. But in another sense it appears to be a blessing in disguise. Living 70-80 years in a world full of sin is difficult enough, I can't imagine living forever in such a state. So, it seems that our first death is merely a resting state until the resurrection.
Before our first parents sinned, while they were still innocent and sinless, God commanded them not to eat the forbidden fruit, and this command was couched with a warning, an implied promise and punishment. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." In other words, obey and live, disobey and die, which is also reminiscent of the blessings and cursings God issued and outlined in Deuteronomy 28.
Did God's prohibition in the Garden of Eden imply punishment or natural consequences? Well, since death is the natural consequence of not eating the fruit of life, and since it was God who denied them access to the fruit, it would seem that both apply, both natural consequences and punishment. We die because God will not let us eat the fruit, which if eaten, prevents us from dying. Thus God, and not natural law, is accountable for our first death. That is, we wouldn't die, even in a sinful state, if we were allowed to eat the fruit of life, unless, of course, someone lopped off our head.
What about the second death? Is it the result of punishment or natural consequences? Well, I suppose it depends on what we think about the resurrection, whether it is natural or supernatural. Since it is obviously a supernatural event, it stands to reason that God is accountable for our final demise, whether eternal life or eternal death. In the case of those who are resurrected to perish in the lake of fire, the second death, it would appear that more than natural consequences are at work.
Yes, fire can burn someone to death if no one intervenes to rescue them. So, if we can determine the origin of the lake of fire, and how people end up in it, and why no one rescues them, then we should be able to learn the truth regarding the nature of their death, whether it was punishment or natural consequences. Again, the answer should be obvious. Both are at work, both punishment and natural consequences. Thus God, and not natural consequences, is accountable for the final demise of the unsaved.
If all these observations are true, then we are forced to ask the question – Are the wages of sin death? Is sin really the sting of death? If so, then what can we learn about the nature of sin and death? Is death merely the natural consequence of sin? Or, is there more to it? And how does any of this relate to the doctrine of justification of life and justification of salvation?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11161
11/14/04 12:31 AM
11/14/04 12:31 AM
|
|
|
Mike,
I see much more to the story than either of us have related. To start with, the "big picture" involves a great controversy or what one well known writer labeled her book on the subject, "The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan." But notice, the controversy is not between God and humans, or between Satan and humans. Humans are not part of the controversy. We are, to quote contemporary news releases, collateral damage. We are the civilians, the bystanders, and to a great extent the prize for which the battle is being fought.
From this perspective, some of the words used to describe the battles are misleading. You used the word "command" in reference to the fruit of a tree in the garden (you said: "God commanded them not to eat the forbidden fruit"). Perhaps, however, God put that tree in the garden to feed the birds or squirrels much as we might plant a holly tree for the same purpose. But holly berries are toxic to humans and if you notice, God told Adam that the "forbidden fruit" was also toxic ("for when you eat of it you will surely die"). It seems obvious to me that when Adam ignored that information, any illness or death would be an effect about which God warned Adam, not a punishment of any kind.
As for the lock-out from the garden, I see that as "damage control" more than either an effect or a punishment. Like putting a fence around a well.
As for the "second death," that is a separate subject. But briefly, I see that as a man-made event. After the millinium and after the sheep and goats are seperated, Mrs. White states and the Bible implies that evil forces will surround the City in an attempt to destroy it. Have you ever wondered how a bunch of unarmed people could possibly expect to destroy a city that can "come down from heaven?" Maybe they weren't unarmed. We are not told how long this event occurs after the millinium ends, but it could be many years. Plenty of time for those evil forces to dig up or recreate the weapons we have today (atom and hydrogen bombs, toxic chemical bombs, and biological weapons) or for antediluvian people to recreate the weapons they had before the flood. They could also rebuild the missiles or aircraft it would take to deliver those weapons. When those weapons were deployed, where do you suppose they would go when they bounced off the walls or roof of the city? It wouldn't take many of them to create the "lake of fire" we refer to as hell. And the humans created it themselves--God had nothing to do with it except, maybe, to put up some kind of force field.
Bob Lee
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11162
11/14/04 04:32 AM
11/14/04 04:32 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Bob Lee, you've quite an imagination. Can you support these ideas from the Bible or the SOP? And, can you show it relates to the topic of this thread?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11163
11/14/04 04:34 AM
11/14/04 04:34 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Boblee, I think I'm in agreement with what you're writing. I'll take a back seat and let you explain your thinking some more, but so far I'm in total harmony, as far as I can tell, with what you're saying.
When I wrote that death was the punishment for sin, I did not mean as an arbitrary event, but as a consequence. My use of the phrase "the wages of sin is death" was simliar. A certain version translates this verse thus: "Sin pays its wages: death."
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11164
11/15/04 12:21 AM
11/15/04 12:21 AM
|
|
|
There is a cause and effect.
Man's disobedience resulted and still results in God's punishments.
When God pronounces judgment, He executes that judgment Himself in the same way He brought about the world-wide flood in which only Noah and his family were saved, in which Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by fire and brimestone, in which the all the forstborn of Egypt were slain, etc.
In like manner, God will rain down fire from heaven which will devour all the wicked, the fallen angels and humans alike. This isn't any ordinary fire, nuclear or otherwise, but a fire that even consumes the wicked angels and wicked men and women.
God, however, doesn't want anybody to perish, therefore, He made a way of escape through Jesus Christ. That is what this topic is really all about.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11165
11/15/04 01:15 AM
11/15/04 01:15 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 763, 764)
The second paragraph points out:
1) The judgement is not an arbitrary act of power of God.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3) God is the fountain of life. The wicked die because they choose to separate themselves from God.
4) The wicked die because they are out of so harmony with God that God's presence to them is a consuming fire.
5) The glory of God destroys the wicked.
Daniel, I have trouble seeing how the picture you gave corresponds to the above.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11166
11/15/04 02:38 AM
11/15/04 02:38 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
No, Tom, your problem is with the Bible, which says the fire comes down from God, and your problem is with the SOP, which says the same thing. It's no ordinary fire, for it consumes people according to their sinfulness. Only God can kindle such a selective fire.
Revelation
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
GC 672, 673
Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11167
11/15/04 03:17 AM
11/15/04 03:17 AM
|
|
|
It is an act of God, a judgment act of God.
The lake of fire isn't formed as a result of nuclear weapons launched by the lost and then bouncing off the walls of the New Jerusalem.
One thing though is that it is called God's strange act as He came to seek and to save the lost, not to destroy them.
They, the lost, in effect, have really destroyed themselves by their choices.
They rejected His love, His mercy, and His grace.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11168
11/15/04 03:38 AM
11/15/04 03:38 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
The Bible says many things, including that God killed Saul even though Saul commited suicide. It says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It says the God created evil. It says that God moved David to number Israel. It says that God sent lying spirits to deceive Ahab. God has given us minds and powers of reason to understand inspiration. The Bible says that Lazarus and the rich man were separated by a wide gulf, with Lazarus being in heaven and the rich man in hell. It also says that Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in paradice" and yet, in spite of these declarations, we are able to come to a true understanding as to what inspiration teaches regarding the State of the Dead. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that the wicked are destroyed because they separate themselves from God, who is the source of life, and the glory of God destroys them. She says it is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. In the Great Controversy she writes: quote:
But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)
A little earlier in the same chapter we read
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.
We are considering important questions here. What is the true nature of sin? Does it really cause death? Does God warn us against sin because it will destroy us, or is sin in reality benign, and it is only because of God that the wicked will die? Is God telling us "Do what I say, or I'll destroy you?" Or does he tell us, "Sin will destroy you. Allow Me to save you from it."
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that compelling force is not to be found in God's government. This is how Satan does things. God's government is moral, and its governing principles are love and truth.
No Mike, I don't have a problem with the Bible. John wrote down what he saw. So did Ellen White. It's up to us to figure out what these things mean.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11169
11/15/04 03:44 AM
11/15/04 03:44 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
EDIT: this post is in response to Daryl's post.
Yes, but we need to stop apologing for God. The wrath of God is love. We will be shouting, Amen, when the wicked are destroyed. Check it out.
EW 295
Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
Concerning the seven last plagues, here's what the unfallen beings are saying:
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11170
11/15/04 04:10 AM
11/15/04 04:10 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Why will the righteous be shouting "Amen!"
When your sister, or brother, or mother, or wife, or child is being destroyed, how loud will your shouts of "Amen" be? Do you think God loves your loved ones any less than you do? Do you think it's possible that God will actually be crying when His children are destroyed? Or we?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11171
11/15/04 04:17 AM
11/15/04 04:17 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, this thread is dealing with justification. God has been working for 6,000 (give or take) to justify destroying sin and sinners in the lake of fire, and yet you want us to believe sin and sinners will destroy themselves? The history of how God has dealt with sin and sinners in the past cannot allow such a conclusion. Yes, yes, yes, I know God has been working hard to save sinners, but it doesn't discount the other side of the same coin. We should probably discuss this in more detail on a different thread.
By the way, when David wept for the death of Absalom it was considered a sin against the people of God.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11172
11/15/04 04:41 AM
11/15/04 04:41 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
You can start another thread if you like, asking if God and the righteous will be glad to see their loved ones destroyed.
Sin does destroy, and everything God has done for 6,000 years testifies to His desire to bring sin to an end as quickly as possible. God hates sin because He loves us, and sin destroys us.
I don't know what other side of the coin you are referring to. The two sides I know about are 1) God is good, 2) Sin is bad.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11173
11/15/04 05:05 AM
11/15/04 05:05 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
The two sides of the coin I'm talking are: 1) The love of God saves, and 2) The love of God destroys. The wrath of God is love. God is in control, not sin, self, Satan, or death. God will receive the credit for eliminating sin and sinners in the lake of fire - not sin, self, Satan, or death.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11174
11/15/04 06:29 AM
11/15/04 06:29 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.
God's love in the principle of life. To know God is life eternal. Sin causes death because it separates itself from God, who is the source of life. We see in the quote above that the wicked separate themselves from God, cutting themselves off from life. That's why they die. Their destruction is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God.
Sin causes death. Not God. Sin doesn't need any help from God to cause death. The sting of death is sin, not God. The wages of sin, not God, is death.
Christ said, "all they that hate Me love death." This is not because Christ would kill those who didn't love Him, but because Christ is the source of life, and all those who separate themselves from Him will die.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11175
11/15/04 08:21 AM
11/15/04 08:21 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
"There is a cause and effect.
Man's disobedience resulted and still results in God's punishments."
Are the punishments arbitrary? That is, is the only reason sin is bad because God punishes it? If God didn't punishment it, would there be any negative consequences to sin?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11176
11/15/04 10:08 AM
11/15/04 10:08 AM
|
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Why will the righteous be shouting "Amen!"
When your sister, or brother, or mother, or wife, or child is being destroyed, how loud will your shouts of "Amen" be? Do you think God loves your loved ones any less than you do? Do you think it's possible that God will actually be crying when His children are destroyed? Or we?
Amen meaning "verily, truly, amen, so be it" does not necessarily imply joy.
/Thomas
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11177
11/15/04 03:40 PM
11/15/04 03:40 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, if life comes from God, then how can death take it? If only God can give life, then only God take it. Death is an enemy, and the last enemy to be destroyed in the lake of fire is death and hell.
If death is the natural consequence of sin, then why don't we die the moment we sin? Why did God have to bar access to the tree of life? If God is able to circumvent the rule of sin and death, then how can you say death is the natural consequence of sin? If this were true, then the reason we die is because God “arbitrarily” withholds life saving measures.
I do not believe our first or second deaths are arbitrary. Our first death is the natural consequence of not eating the fruit of the tree of life. Again, not arbitrary, but by the decree of God. He placed an angel in the Garden of Eden to prevent us from gaining access to the tree of life, as a result, we gradually die. We sleep.
But then God resurrects us, and we are alive again. Why? If death is the natural result of sin, why bring us back to life? We stand in judgment before the Great White throne, admit our guilt, declare God’s justice, and then we are burned alive in the lake of fire, the result of God calling fire down from heaven above and from beneath the earth.
We, that is, mankind, don’t die a natural death, because each person burns up according to their sinfulness. There is nothing natural about it. Neither is there anything arbitrary about it. Our death in the lake of fire is calculated to serve a purpose, and that purpose is justice. It is punishment. Yes, punishment. The wrath of God is love.
RC 58
Before Christ's first advent, the sin of refusing to conform to God's law had become widespread. Apparently Satan's power was growing; his warfare against heaven was becoming more and more determined. A crisis had been reached. With an intense interest God's movements were watched by the heavenly angels. Would He come forth from His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity? Would He send fire or flood to destroy them? All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebellious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, "Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion." {RC 58.4}
But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." God might have sent His Son to condemn, but He sent Him to save. Christ came as a Redeemer. No words can describe the effect of this movement on the heavenly angels. With wonder and admiration they could only exclaim, "Herein is love!" {RC 58.5}
TDG 152
The outlook in our world is indeed alarming. God is withdrawing His Spirit from the wicked cities, which have become as the cities of the antediluvian world, and as Sodom and Gomorrah. The inhabitants of these cities have been tested and tried. We have reached a time when God is about to punish the presumptuous wrongdoers, who refuse to keep His commandments and disregard His messages of warning. He who bears long with evildoers gives everyone an opportunity to seek Him and humble their hearts before Him. {TDG 152.1}
Matthew
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
LDE 241
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}
Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}
4T 370
But few realize the sinfulness of sin; they flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the offender. {4T 370.1}
5T 601
We are nearing the end. God has borne long with the perversity of mankind, but their punishment is no less certain. {5T 601.1}
1T 429
I saw that we are now in the shaking time. Satan is working with all his power to wrest souls from the hand of Christ and cause them to trample underfoot the Son of God. An angel slowly and emphatically repeated these words: "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" {1T 429.1}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11178
11/15/04 03:50 PM
11/15/04 03:50 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
quote:
If God didn't punishment it, would there be any negative consequences to sin?
Yes, it would cast an unholy reflection upon God Himself. In the same way David wept over the death of Absalom was deemed treason, so God would be found sympathizing with sin and sinners if He cowered or recoiled from punishing it and them.
COL 307, 308
The householder, on seeing his invitation slighted, declared that none of the men who are bidden should taste of his supper. But for those who had done despite to the king, more than exclusion from his presence and his table is decreed. "He sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." {COL 307.3}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11179
11/16/04 04:47 AM
11/16/04 04:47 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Tom, if life comes from God, then how can death take it?
"God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." (DA 764)
quote:
If only God can give life, then only God take it.
God has given us free will, so we can take life.
quote:
Death is an enemy, and the last enemy to be destroyed in the lake of fire is death and hell.
Yes.
quote:
If death is the natural consequence of sin, then why don't we die the moment we sin?
Good question! Because of the grace of God.
"To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life." "Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ." (DA 660)
"Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son." (FW 22)
quote:
Why did God have to bar access to the tree of life?
He didn't want to perpetuate sin. For the same reason He did not prohibit meat eating after the flood.
quote:
If God is able to circumvent the rule of sin and death, then how can you say death is the natural consequence of sin?
God can circumvent the rule of gravity and falling, but that doesn't mean the natural consequence of gravity isn't falling.
quote:
If this were true, then the reason we die is because God 'arbitrarily' withholds life saving measures.
"Christ says, 'All they that hate Me love death.' Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice." (DA 764)
quote:
I do not believe our first or second deaths are arbitrary. Our first death is the natural consequence of not eating the fruit of the tree of life. Again, not arbitrary, but by the decree of God. He placed an angel in the Garden of Eden to prevent us from gaining access to the tree of life, as a result, we gradually die. We sleep.
The first death is a conseqence of Adam's sin. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12).
The second death is a consequence of our own choice. "The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." (DA 764)
quote:
But then God resurrects us, and we are alive again. Why? If death is the natural result of sin, why bring us back to life?
This is an excellent question, and one I've thought a great deal about. Without going into specifics, which would merit a thread of its own, I'll answer it simply by saying that the reasons for the ressurection of the wicked must be in harmony with God's character as it is revealed in Jesus Christ. If you want to start a new thread, I'll be happy to discuss this question in detail.
quote:
We stand in judgment before the Great White throne, admit our guilt, declare God’s justice, and then we are burned alive in the lake of fire, the result of God calling fire down from heaven above and from beneath the earth.
"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is 'alienated from the life of God.' Christ says, 'All they that hate Me love death.' Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." (DA 764)
Your description does not appear to me to be in harmony with what EGW says here. It points out that the second death is:
1) Not an arbitrary act of power from God (your description seems to be just this)
2) The rejectors of mercy reap that which they have sown (this implies cause and effect)
3) Death is the result of separating oneself from God, the fountain of life.
4) The presence of God is a consuming fire to the wicked.
5) The glory of God destroys the wicked.
quote:
We, that is, mankind, don’t die a natural death, because each person burns up according to their sinfulness. There is nothing natural about it. Neither is there anything arbitrary about it. Our death in the lake of fire is calculated to serve a purpose, and that purpose is justice. It is punishment. Yes, punishment. The wrath of God is love.
Again, your description appears to me to be out of harmony with what DA 764 says.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11180
11/16/04 11:20 AM
11/16/04 11:20 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
God created life; he too created death, nothing under the sun which is not his creation, even life and death.
How can Tom Ewall believe that death is not God creation?? Even good and evil is God creation.
Men has just made a choice, to live the evil way or to live the good way.
Once they were created without this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil, just simply living and doing things because they were created in perfection, holiness and the love of God ruled their heart. But due to their free will choice, they choose to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in order to have wisdom as God, knowing good and evil. And once they knew, the choice to live the good way or the evil way is theirs, but God wants all men to live the good way in order they might live.
Killing men is against God’s love, but he must do it in order to abolish sin and sinners forever from his universe, otherwise sin and sinners would live forever side by side with holiness and righteousness. The wages of sin is death and the executioner of death is God.
First death we inherit from Adam and Eve who were sentenced to death due to their sin, they deserve to die for it is their sins, but not us. But the second death is the wages of sin, those who live in sin and died in sin would die the second death as the wage of his own sin in spite Christ had saved him trough his redemption work.
In Hs love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11181
11/17/04 04:30 AM
11/17/04 04:30 AM
|
Charter Member
SDA
Active Member 2020
Senior Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by James Saptenno:
God created life; he too created death, nothing under the sun which is not his creation, even life and death.
How can Tom Ewall believe that death is not God creation?? Even good and evil is God creation.
What is this concept? God "CREATED EVIL?"
-I DON'T THINK SO.
maybe Satan would like us to think that God is the source of evil???
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11182
11/16/04 05:29 PM
11/16/04 05:29 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
Hi James,
Daniel has a very valid point as well as a concern. God is love, so he did not create evil.
GOd Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11183
11/16/04 06:57 PM
11/16/04 06:57 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
God doesn't kill sinners. They kill themselves by separating themselves from God. "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." (DA 764)
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11184
11/16/04 08:06 PM
11/16/04 08:06 PM
|
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
|
|
I have to disagree with youthere Tom. God will infact kill sinners.
The flood, the israelites who made a golden calf, and also the army of 185 thousand soldiers.
Jesus said those who are not with me are against me, and that will result in the opposing force losing.
God Bless,
Will
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11185
11/16/04 08:17 PM
11/16/04 08:17 PM
|
|
|
The punishment and killing aspect seems to be taking over this topic, therefore, those of you who want to continue to discuss the punishment aspect, then I suggest a new topic be started.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11186
11/19/04 04:43 AM
11/19/04 04:43 AM
|
|
|
I apologize for diverting this thread to another subject. It is a good discussion, but I mentioned it only as a side line which, as Daryl suggested, should have taken off on another thread.
Meanwhile:
In relation to my previous post, I was asked, "where the law of God fits in, and how it relates to death and punishment" and "can you show how it [what I suggested about penalty] relates to the topic of this thread?"
The topic of this thread is justification which is usually thought of as one-third the plan God provided for our salvation. The plan is usually presented in a ditty like this:
Justification: Saved from the penalty of sin,
Sanctification: Saved from the power of sin, and
Glorification: Saved from the presence of sin.
The penalty of sin is seen as a one-time act (the cross) at which God paid the penalty for and forgave all sin. When we accept that forgiveness, we are henceforth saved. God then gives us the power to overcome all sin in our lives. This will probably take a lifetime and then some to accomplish. Finally, at death or at Jesus' second coming, He removes us from the very presence of sin.
The problem that bothers me is that word "penalty." There are penalties connected with laws that come from legislatures, judges, parents, and other authority figures, but except in extreme situations, that penalty is not death. But I believe God's laws are natural laws such as those of gravity, momentum, inertia, and electromagnetism. They are not the fickle, temporary, changeable, laws that come from legislatures. In His proclamation on Sinai, I believe God did us a favor by revealing a few of the natural laws that would have taken a long time for us to discover. As we learn to cooperate with the Sinai laws as we learn to cooperate with gravitational fields (don't jump from that high up), inertial laws (don't drive around a corner so fast), electric fields (don't stick your finger in the light socket), etc., our lives will be much safer. In fact, with God's guidance we can learn to live forever. On the other hand, ignoring natural principles can be dangerous, even deadly (that's where ALL death comes from). Not because of anything God does, but because we've been careless.
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11187
11/19/04 07:41 PM
11/19/04 07:41 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I used the word "penalty" in the sense of natural consequence, as I explained. I used the word because it's often used. I agree that it can give the wrong idea. I certainly don't think that God arbitrarly punishes people, which I think I've made clear.
In the very first post I discussed both the "penalty" and "power" aspects of salvation. I attempted to do so without using theological terminology. I would be interested in your comments of it.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11188
11/20/04 03:35 AM
11/20/04 03:35 AM
|
|
|
Tom,
When you stated "I used the word "penalty" in the sense of natural consequence," I believe you put your finger on the main problem that causes misunderstanding in our discussions. Almost every "buzz word" we use in our theology has at least two and sometimes many different usages. When I use a word in one sense but you are thinking of a different meaning of that word, it's difficult for us to understand each other. One time when I was discussing the gospel, for instance, a friend of mine asked "which gospel?" He went on to say "the gospel according to Desmond Ford is ..." and proceeded to give a short synopsis of Ford's concepts. He continued by naming at least a dozen prominent Adventist theologians and outlined each of their concepts of the gospel. And all were different. As I say, most of our theological buzz words have similar problems. So it's not surprising that the word "punishment" would have several usages. Most non-scientists have no concept of "natural law" and the difference between it and the legislated laws with we are all familiar. So theologians would assume that the natural laws, including in particular the laws of God, are legislated laws generated by God. In my posts, I was trying to differentiate between the results of disobeying a legislated law and ignoring a natural law. Even the translators of I John 3:4 in KJV seem to have missed that distinction. Maybe if I used the word correction or reproof or discipline instead of punishment for disobedience to a legislated law, my meaning would have been clearer.
In any event, you seem to be echoing thoughts similar to what I was trying to express. In that first post, I like the way you explained the results of sinning and the power play that a sinful life develops in us. You also made an interesting statement that resonates with me. You said, "Jesus in prayer to His Father said that knowing God is eternal life. He said He finished His work by glorifying God and magnifying His name. This is another way of saying that Jesus made God's character known. He did this by healing others and proclaiming the Good News about God." This presents a different paradigm of salvation than that which we usually hear. It puts the emphasis on helping others and glorifying God rather than persuading people to accept some doctrinal principles. Particularly those principles which make God out to be some kind of tyrant. I appreciate your post.
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11189
11/20/04 05:14 AM
11/20/04 05:14 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I agree that language is a problem. Surely noone has been as skilled at this as Jesus Christ. How wonderfully He was able to communicate with any class!
To try to get around this problem, I often ask a lot of questions and try to keep posts short to get an idea of where the other fellow is coming from. To those who are familiar with legal language, I will often try to communicate concepts that way, as the concepts are, I'm thinking, more likely to be understood. There is certainly a lot of legal language used in inspiration.
Ellen White often communicates the plan of salvation without legal language (although she often uses legal language to). Two chapters that come to mind where she wonderfully communicates the Gospel are chapters 1 and 79 ("It is Finished") in the Desire of Ages.
I look forward to more of your posts.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11190
11/26/04 08:46 AM
11/26/04 08:46 AM
|
|
|
.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11191
11/27/04 01:26 AM
11/27/04 01:26 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom and Boblee, both of you are dead wrong regarding the penalty phase of judgment (please ignore the pun). The idea that sin and sinners eliminate themselves in the lake of fire implies that God just stands by wringing his fingers mumbling, My, oh my, oh my.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11192
11/27/04 06:51 AM
11/27/04 06:51 AM
|
|
|
Mike,
Your question regarding the penalty phase of judgment is interesting. First of all, what action on the part of "sinners" requires "punishment?" The Bible clearly specifies that the sin which is unto death (I John 5:16,17) brings wages (Rom 6:23), not punishment. So it seems obvious that the sins which are punishable are not the ones which lead to death. That sinners die is undeniable, but where do we find that God does the killing?
Second, let's look at the record of havoc in Earth's history. First of all, we know that humans have always attributed to God almost anything that they do not understand. Even today in our official language we speak of "Acts of God" when we refer to hurricanes, tornados, floods, fires, wars, accidents, and other trauma which God obviously has no part in producing. We also know that the Jews around the time of Ezra gathered the various manuscripts and oral traditions to make up what we know as the Old Testament. At the same time, they probably redacted much of it to fit their contemporary understanding. For instance, the role of women was modified to fit their belief that women were unimportant to God (otherwise why don't the second and tenth commandments apply to women?). If, perchance, you object to the concept that the Bible was redacted, tell me why the we have two different versions of the ten commandments which were written by God Himself on tables of stone (Exodus 20 and Deut. 5)? Since they still had the stone with them, it seems that they should have translated both versions the same way.
It seems obvious that God didn't cause Adam to eat the apple or Cain to kill Abel. Every aspect of the flood story would be a direct consequence of a meteor or bolide striking Earth. We don't know what their capabilities were, but the flood could well have been caused by the humans themselves, perhaps in an attempt to put another moon in their sky. From then until around 700 BC, there were a series of disasters which occurred about 55 years apart every 605 years or so. These include the Tower of Babel, Sodom, the Exodus, Joshua's long day, the destruction in David's day, (I Chron 21, II Sam 24), the disaster of Joel's and Amos' day, and the destruction of Sennacherib in Isaiah's day. One can argue that God caused all these, but the regularity with which they occurred seems to indicate that they had a natural cause. Donald W. Patten in several of his books suggests that at that time Mars was in a 2:1 synchronous orbit with Earth and crossed Earth's path closely enough to cause the observed havoc.
In other cases, Er and Onan (Gen. 38) could have died from natural causes, Uzzah may well have died from an electric shock (the ark was built like a big capacitor), and Ananias and Sapphira from heart attacks.
What I'm pointing out is that there is very little evidence that God ever killed anyone! When we insisted on killing each other as in Moses' and Joshua's time, He set down parameters for such activity, but just as He told the Israelites that He would drive out the Canaanites with hornets (Exod 23:28) and hornets are not lethal, God does not seem to be in the killing business. So why is it assumed that God gets in the killing business in the end when there is much reason to believe the wicked will try to destroy the City and subsequently reap the consequences of that imprudence?
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11193
11/27/04 07:02 AM
11/27/04 07:02 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
The idea that sin and sinners eliminate themselves in the lake of fire implies that God just stands by wringing his fingers mumbling, My, oh my, oh my.
You can't help but know this is a mischaracterization of our position. Why would you do this Mike?
It's fine to disagree, but disagree with what we actually say and believe. Please. That's only decent.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11194
11/28/04 04:32 AM
11/28/04 04:32 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Boblee, the expression “wages of sin” is a metaphor. Not only is sin punishable by death, it’s the worst death imaginable. “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment… there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Mat 25:46, 30. “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.” Rev 14:11. They suffer the pangs of every sin they have ever committed until they die. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Mat 10:28.
The notion that God has never killed anyone is totally unbiblical. It forces us to read the Bible like a fairytale. If we cannot take God at His word, if we cannot read the Bible the way it’s written, if it is left with us to figure out what plain speech means, as if it contains hidden meaning not obvious – then we are more than all people most miserable. No, the Bible means what it says. God is in control, not death or natural law. Whether He causes or permits death and disaster the results are the same – God is responsible for everything that happens. Why? Because He possesses the power to prevent everything that happens, without violating our freedom to choose.
EW 289, 290
My attention was again directed to the earth. The wicked had been destroyed, and their dead bodies were lying upon its surface. The wrath of God in the seven last plagues had been visited upon the inhabitants of the earth, causing them to gnaw their tongues from pain and to curse God. The false shepherds had been the signal objects of Jehovah's wrath. Their eyes had consumed away in their holes, and their tongues in their mouths, while they stood upon their feet. After the saints had been delivered by the voice of God, the wicked multitude turned their rage upon one another. The earth seemed to be deluged with blood, and dead bodies were from one end of it to the other. {EW 289.3}
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11195
11/28/04 04:36 AM
11/28/04 04:36 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, I did not say that's what you believe. I said what you believe implies it. But please set the record staight. If sin and sinners destroy themselves, what is God doing in the meantime?
EDIT - Tom, do you actually agree with everything Boblee is saying about the OT and how people died? and about the NT and how people will die? What about the way he attempts to explain how things happened and will happen? That is, do you believe the Flood was the result of natural law? that the lake of fire is the result of bombs bouncing off a force shield around the New Jerusalem?
[ November 27, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11196
11/27/04 07:57 PM
11/27/04 07:57 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Tom and Boblee, both of you are dead wrong regarding the penalty phase of judgment (please ignore the pun). The idea that sin and sinners eliminate themselves in the lake of fire implies that God just stands by wringing his fingers mumbling, My, oh my, oh my.
quote:
Tom, I did not say that's what you believe. I said what you believe implies it.
I'm not getting that you wrote what we believe "implies" what you wrote. It looks to me like you were representing what we believe by what you wrote, which is obviously a caricature. This is what I was taking issue with. This part is particularly offensive: "God just stands by wringing his fingers mumbling, My, oh my, oh my."
If you want to write something like: "Guys, I don't understand what you're saying. This sounds to me like God just stands by wringing his fingers mumbling, My, oh my, oh my," that would be OK. This would represent how you are understanding what we're saying. But what you wrote represents us as believing something you know we don't.
It would be as if I represented your position on overcoming sin as you believing that God does nothing but stand by while we work ourselves to heaven and we gain heaven by our own merits.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11197
11/27/04 08:03 PM
11/27/04 08:03 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Regarding what Boblee has written, I'd rather reserve my thoughts to what happens at the destruction of the wicked for the time being. We're discussing that on the thread Daniel has started for that purpose.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11198
11/27/04 09:07 PM
11/27/04 09:07 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
If God does not take an active role in the destruction and punishment of the unsaved, then what will He do while they are perishing in the lake of fire? Will He be rejoicing with the holy angels, and with the rest of us?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11199
11/28/04 06:58 AM
11/28/04 06:58 AM
|
|
|
Mike
It's interesting that you would say, "if we cannot read the Bible the way it's written, if it is left with us to figure out what plain speech means, as if it contains hidden meaning not obvious – then we are more than all people most miserable;" but when I take the Bible the way it's written (the wages of sin is death), you call it "a metaphor."
You may be right, of course; the "crime/punishment" paradigm may indeed be correct. There is much in Scripture to support it. But there is also much in Scripture which supports a cause/effect paradigm which I am exploring. Part of the problem, of course, is the multitude of meanings each of our buzzwords contains. Can we really define "wages" as a "punishment?" For that matter, what is "punishment?" Is the splat at the bottom a punishment for falling off a cliff? And what is "sin?" Is falling off a cliff a sin God can't just forgive or overlook? God forgave Moses for striking the rock. Or maybe that wasn't really a sin! If not, then why didn't God let Moses go into the promised land? If so, how could God resurrect and take him to heaven, long before Calvary. So just how do sin and salvation and punishment fit together. To me, it's not nearly as clear using the traditional crime/punishment paradigm as it is in the cause/effect paradigm.
You also said, "the Bible means what it says." I agree. But what does the Bible actually say? We don't take the parables literally, nor much of the poetry (like the attitude of the psalmist in Psalm 137:8,9), nor many of the prophecies (remember water=peoples, a day=a year, beasts=nations, etc.?). We teach, for instance, that the dead righteous stay in their graves until Jesus comes. But Paul tells us that God brings the righteous with Him when He comes for His people (I Thess 4:14). Then there's that "great multitude" John saw in heaven between the sixth and seventh seals (Rev 7:9) and again just before the seven last plagues were poured out (Rev 15:2). If the righteous don't go to heaven when they die, where did all those people come from? On the present subject, you claim that "the notion that God has never killed anyone is totally unbiblical." There are texts which support that notion, but as I pointed out, almost all those texts can be interpreted in other ways that to me make a lot more sense. I believe it is SIN that kills, not God. To paraphrase Paul (Romans 6:23 again), Sin causes Death. Why is that so hard to believe?
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11200
11/29/04 04:46 AM
11/29/04 04:46 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
quote:
Is the splat at the bottom a punishment for falling off a cliff?
Well, it would depend on why and how someone ended up falling off the cliff. If he was found guilty of some crime that warranted the death penalty, and the judge and jury sentenced him to be pushed off a cliff, then the splat at the bottom would be the result of punishment. Yes, it is also the result of natural law, the law of gravity, but natural law is impartial, whereas pushing him off the cliff is deliberate. The responsibility for the death of the criminal rests with the judge and jury and, of course, the executioner, the one who actually pushes him off the cliff.
But in reality, since God has the power to prevent the criminal from going splat at the bottom, from dying on impact, then God is ultimately responsible. Which is also why God is accountable for everything that happens in heaven and on earth, and throughout His far flung universe. In fact, if we back up far enough, to the beginning, before anything was created, when there was only the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, when sin and death were impossible, then we can say with certainty that God is responsible for the existence of sin and death.
No, God didn’t cause created beings to sin and die, but He did create free moral agents capable of sinning and dying, knowing that they would eventually choose to sin and rebel, knowing that Jesus would have to do die on the cross to redeem them from death, knowing all these things, God, nevertheless, chose to create them anyhow. Sin and death would have never happened if God hadn’t created beings who would eventually choose to sin and rebel. Thus, in one sense, God is responsible for the existence of sin and death.
If we can agree that God is responsible for the existence of sin and death, then we should also be able to agree that the responsibility to eliminate sin and death rests solely with God. We have already seen on Calvary that God took it upon Himself to deal with the sin problem by becoming sin for us and by dying to redeem us from sin and death. When Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death He thereby earned the right to own our sin and second death. He is the lawful owner of the keys of hell and of death.
As the rightful owner of hell and death, it rests with Jesus to eliminate them once and forever. The way God proposes to do this is by eliminating sin and sinners in the lake of fire. Both hell and death are also eliminated in the lake of fire. The same fire purifies the earth by consuming all traces of sin, and then eventually it goes out, and God recreates the earth anew. To suggest that this fire is something other than literal fire just doesn’t make sense to me, especially when there is no reason for me to think otherwise. One of the rules for studying the Bible is to take it literally unless it is absurd to do so.
quote:
I believe it is SIN that kills, not God. To paraphrase Paul (Romans 6:23 again), Sin causes Death. Why is that so hard to believe?
It is hard to believe because I am still alive and well, in spite of the fact I have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11201
11/29/04 04:53 AM
11/29/04 04:53 AM
|
|
|
Mike,
Now I see where you're coming from. My cousin also believes that God is the author of sin. He believes that this planet and its humans are a new and distinct creation which God designed for the specific purpose of demonstrating the results of sin to the universe. You seem to have picked up a similar paradigm, and if so, the rest of what you are saying makes sense.
I find much in Scripture which is contrary to that view and very little Scripture to support it, but there is enough support that I can't really argue about it.
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11202
11/30/04 06:29 AM
11/30/04 06:29 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
"Nothing is more plainly taught in
Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given." (GC 493)
Doesn't this mean that God is not responsible for the existence of sin?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11203
11/30/04 06:38 AM
11/30/04 06:38 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
"The way God proposes to do this is by eliminating sin and sinners in the lake of fire."
"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power.
It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe....
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law." (DA "It is Finished")
Sorry the quote is so long.
What this brings out is that God could not eliminate sin by force, as your paradigm seems to indicate. First of all, God does not use compelling force, as it is not according to His character. Secondly, sin cannot be eliminated by force. It's not destroyed by brute power, but by love and truth, the governing principles of God's government.
It is the truth of God's character that places the universe in a state of eternal security. Sin will not arise again because all will know the truth of who God is. To know God is life eternal.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11204
12/01/04 04:00 AM
12/01/04 04:00 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
quote:
Doesn't this mean that God is not responsible for the existence of sin?
In one sense, yes, it does mean that God is not responsible for the “entrance” of sin. But does “entrance” and “existence” mean the same thing? Here’s what makes sense to me, the entrance or existence of sin was not possible until God created free moral agents capable of sinning and dying. Taking into consideration that God knew sin would enter the picture, and that creating beings capable of sinning and dying was not a requirement, that is, the Godhead could have continued living as they had been for zillions of years without the existence of created beings, taking these things into consideration – I think it is obvious that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable. That’s it, maybe the word “inevitable” is better than the word “existence”.
Here again, though, I think it is also obvious that God did not make or cause created beings to sin or rebel. He gave them the ability to choose to be willingly loyal or deliberately rebellious. But by virtue of the fact He knew in advance that they would sin and die, and that Jesus would make salvation available to them by living and dying the perfect life and death, God is not only responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable, He is also responsible for eliminating sin and death, the onus rests with Him alone.
Admittedly, the DA quote you posted seems to suggest that what destroys and exterminates sin and sinners is the glory of God, which is a consuming fire. But a closer look at the bigger picture, taking into account everything Sister White wrote, and what the Bible writers penned, it is obvious to me that God also employs literal fire to “destroy” the unsaved. Yes, His glory is a consuming fire, but He also uses literal fire to exterminate sin and sinners. Otherwise, we must twist and tweak the inspired statements that describe the fire, the lake of fire, wherein the wicked are destroyed according to their evil works.
DA 759, 764
God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. {DA 759.1}
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. {DA 761.3}
Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." {DA 763.4}
Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}
Well, then, might the angels rejoice as they looked upon the Saviour's cross; for though they did not then understand all, they knew that the destruction of sin and Satan was forever made certain, that the redemption of man was assured, and that the universe was made eternally secure. {DA 764}
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. {EW 295.1}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11205
11/30/04 08:21 PM
11/30/04 08:21 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
In one sense, yes, it does mean that God is not responsible for the “entrance” of sin. But does “entrance” and “existence” mean the same thing? Here’s what makes sense to me, the entrance or existence of sin was not possible until God created free moral agents capable of sinning and dying. Taking into consideration that God knew sin would enter the picture, and that creating beings capable of sinning and dying was not a requirement, that is, the Godhead could have continued living as they had been for zillions of years without the existence of created beings, taking these things into consideration – I think it is obvious that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable. That’s it, maybe the word “inevitable” is better than the word “existence”.
I think the Spirit of Prophesy is right in what she wrote. God is in no way responsible for the entrance, or existence, of sin. Sin is 100% Satan's invention, and God never intended for it to occur.
Mike: "I think it is obvious that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable."
EGW: "Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin."
I think it's obvious what you wrote is not agreeing with what EGW wrote. If God created a situation where sin was inevitable, then He is responsible for sin occuring. That's as clear as sunlight.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11206
11/30/04 08:37 PM
11/30/04 08:37 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Admittedly, the DA quote you posted seems to suggest that what destroys and exterminates sin and sinners is the glory of God, which is a consuming fire. But a closer look at the bigger picture, taking into account everything Sister White wrote, and what the Bible writers penned, it is obvious to me that God also employs literal fire to “destroy” the unsaved. Yes, His glory is a consuming fire, but He also uses literal fire to exterminate sin and sinners. Otherwise, we must twist and tweak the inspired statements that describe the fire, the lake of fire, wherein the wicked are destroyed according to their evil works.
It appears to me you're "closer-looking" in the wrong direction! You're saying that DA gives the impression that what causes the destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of power on the power of God where He destroys them by a literal ball of fire, but when you look closer, that's what it is. In reality it's the other way around.
Here's the statement from the Desire of Ages:
"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe." (DA 764)
Is this not clear? Sin would have destroyed Satan immedieately had God allowed them to reap the full result of what they had done, but had God allowed this to happen a seed of doubt would have remained. It would have appeared that God was arbitrarily destroying them, rather than sin. The very accusation of God you are making -- that Satan's destruction comes about as an arbitrary judgment on the part of God rather than being the "inevitable result of sin" -- is the very thing God was trying to prevent!
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11207
11/30/04 09:10 PM
11/30/04 09:10 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
quote:
"Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin."
Yes, that’s right, of course. God did not force His free moral agents to sin. I believe that’s what she means in this quote. Do you agree that sin and death were not possible before God created free moral agents? Do you believe God foresaw the entrance of sin? and that He planned for it? If so, then you must also agree that God orchestrated a situation where sin and death was inevitable.
DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}
AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11208
11/30/04 09:22 PM
11/30/04 09:22 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, I couldn't help but noticing you did not respond to Sister White's description of hell fire in Early Writings. Yes, of course, there is nothing arbitrary about the glory of God consuming the wicked at the end of time. But when we take into account all the inspired insights concerning hell fire, we cannot avoid the conclusion that it involves both the glory of God and literal flames. And there is absolutely nothing arbitrary about the death of the wicked in a lake of fire. God will win the great controversy, Satan will lose, and then the destruction of the wicked will seem like the loving thing to do. All of us, who will be standing there watching them die a painful and hideous death, will say, Amen! righteous and holy are thy ways, O Lord. A strange act, yes, but a loving one nonetheless.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11209
11/30/04 09:37 PM
11/30/04 09:37 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Mike, she wrote what she saw in vision. Later on she explained what she saw meant. Symbolic texts should by interpreted in the light of non-symbolic ones, not the other way around.
In addition, we have the whole of Scripture, and especially the life of Christ, which reveals to us the character of God. How God treats the wicked must be in harmony with the revelation God gives of Himself in Christ.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11210
12/01/04 02:31 AM
12/01/04 02:31 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
... and in the OT, where Jesus executed hundreds and thousands of people for resisting His will, His way, and His chosen people. Yes, executing people is a strange act for a loving God, but the wrath of God is love. Just because we cannot relate to it or comprehend it, doesn't give us the right to twist the truth about it. What Sister White saw in EW, regarding hell fire, was not symbolic.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11211
12/01/04 06:47 AM
12/01/04 06:47 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I'm not sure why this thread is continue to deal with the wrath of God when Daniel specifically started a new thread to deal with that. Well as long as this is going on in two fronts, I'll post what the OT has to say about God's wrath in a moment, but would like to ask the question what makes you so sure the fire in Revelation is literal? How do you reconcile that with DA 764 which points out that God is the consuming fire and it is His glory which destroys the wicked, and that it is not an arbitrary act of power of God?
OT texts on wrath:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)
"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)
"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 King 17:17-20)
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)
"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)
"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)
"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)
"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11212
12/01/04 07:05 AM
12/01/04 07:05 AM
|
|
|
Mike Two details bother me in what you say. You say: "maybe the word ‘inevitable' is better than the word ‘existence.'" but to me that is backward. There is only one reason to believe that sin is inevitable which you introduced in a later statement where you say "But by virtue of the fact He knew in advance that they would sin and die, ..." How could God "know" they would sin and die? There is no Biblical evidence that God knows anything in advance except that which He Himself planned and/or caused to happen. Even then some of the things He prophecied never happened (Nineveh was NOT destroyed in 40 days; Ezekiel 40-48 never happened nor ever will; God did NOT return to heaven as He said He would in Exodus 32:33-35 and 33; shall I go on?). Your concept that God knew in advance that sin was inevitable is apparently based on the concept that God knows the intimate details of the future. But that concept makes a mockery of "free choice." It should be obvious that if it can be known by any manner or means whatever what I am going to do in the future, then I have no choice in the matter. If God actually gave humans free choice or free will, then by definition, God cannot know the future in that detail. He only knows what choices He has made. I admit, if God knew which being or which world was going to rebel against Him and He made that being or world anyhow, then God must be responsible for sin as you suggested. But you may notice I would use your argument in reverse to prove that God cannot know all of the future which is another, but related subject. Maybe it's time to take Ellen White seriously when she says: "There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error." R & H, Dec 20, 1892. RL code:
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11213
12/02/04 04:52 AM
12/02/04 04:52 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Boblee, do you see a contrast or a contradiction between the following quotes?
"I admit, if God knew which being or which world was going to rebel against Him and He made that being or world anyhow, then God must be responsible for sin as you suggested. But you may notice I would use your argument in reverse to prove that God cannot know all of the future which is another, but related subject." {Boblee}
DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11214
12/02/04 04:59 AM
12/02/04 04:59 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
You're right, Tom, this thread has gone astray. In light of the wrath of God, the punishment and destruction of the wicked, He is justified is killing them in the lake of fire because they refused and/or rejected to live in harmony with His law, because they despised the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. Whether it is His exceeding brightness that kills them or literal fire, or both, the main thing is that God is just and loving for eliminating them forever.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11215
12/01/04 11:04 PM
12/01/04 11:04 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
In light of the love of God revealed on the cross, demonstrating the lethalness of sin, regarding the punishment and destruction of the wicked, God is justified in destroying them by allowing them to reap the consequences of their own choice because they refused and/or rejected to be in harmony with His character, because they despised the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. The main thing is that God is just, loving and merciful for bringing sin to an end in such a way that all can see His goodness.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11216
12/02/04 01:04 AM
12/02/04 01:04 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Okay. But do you really believe God is loving? What kind of God walks onto the scene and kills everybody because He chose not to hide the brightness of His glory? Just how just is that? Why not send Jesus instead?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11217
12/02/04 05:59 AM
12/02/04 05:59 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I find this to be a very odd question. You seem to think Jesus and God are different. Sending Jesus, as you put it, wouldn't change a thing. When Christ comes the second time the wicked call for the mountains to fall upon them. They would rather have rocks fall on their head then to see the eyes of their Redeemer who loves them with unlimited love. "This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." (DA 764) In answer to your question, do I think God is loving, I answer yes, more than I can think or imagine. In answer to your question, "What kind of God walks onto the scene and kills everybody because He chose not to hide the brightness of His glory?" I answer it appears to me you are not looking at things in the same way they are being described in the above DA quote. The glory of Him who is love destroys them because the wicked choose to separate themselves from God, not because "He walks on the scene and kills them." ====== Quote removed as it is from the immediately preceding post. - Daryl [ December 03, 2004, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11218
12/02/04 07:29 AM
12/02/04 07:29 AM
|
|
|
Mike,
As you quoted Mrs. White, "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought." I didn't say it was. When God gave free will or freedom of choice to His creation, there was indeed the possibility that somewhere, sometime, somehow, some form of rebellion would arise. The plan of salvation was an obvious preparation on God's part before He created any sentient beings to counter the possibility that sin would arise. But there is no reason to believe it was inevitable. Or for that matter, that Lucifer would be the one to start it. Nor is it obvious that Earth would be the place where it would continue.
So where's the contradiction? The only contradiction I see is with those who claim that God knows the future but also say God didn't start sin. I understood you to resolve the dilemma by suggesting God did start sin; while I resolve it by suggesting that God does not claim to know all the details of the future (only those things which He intends to control).
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11219
12/02/04 08:29 PM
12/02/04 08:29 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, I agree with you that the Father and Jesus are equal. Sorry for the confusion. When Jesus walked among men His brightness did not kill sinners. When Jesus appeared unto Moses on the mount His brightness did not kill him. That’s what I meant when I posted – Why not send Jesus instead? In reality, when Jesus does return, the man of sin, and no doubt many others, will be destroyed by His brightness. quote:
The glory of Him who is love destroys them because the wicked choose to separate themselves from God, not because "He walks on the scene and kills them."
I don’t think I made my point clear. I thought you have been saying all along that the wicked are destroyed because God of the brightness of countenance. Well, it seems logical to me, that if God chose to conceal His brightness, or chose to stay away from the wicked, that they would continue to live and, if they had access to the tree of life, they would live forever. Since these things are so, then it stands to reason that the wicked will be destroyed the moment God “walks on the scene”, unless, of course, He chooses to conceal His brightness. Thus, whether or not they die depends on whether or not God conceals His glory, which means God is ultimately responsible - which is a good thing, because I'd rather God in control.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11220
12/02/04 08:37 PM
12/02/04 08:37 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Boblee, please reread this quote. Do you really think it implies God did not foreknow that Satan would rebel and that mankind would sin? Also, your assessment of my thoughts on the origin of sin are not accurate. Saying that God created the potential for sin and death is not the same thing as saying God forced Satan or mankind to sin.
DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11221
12/02/04 09:15 PM
12/02/04 09:15 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
I don’t think I made my point clear. I thought you have been saying all along that the wicked are destroyed because God of the brightness of countenance. Well, it seems logical to me, that if God chose to conceal His brightness, or chose to stay away from the wicked, that they would continue to live and, if they had access to the tree of life, they would live forever.
God's purpose is to do away with sin as quickly as possible. That's always been His purpose, as soon as there was sin. God keeps the wicked alive (that includes us -- yay!) so that they (we) may have the opportunity to choose to live according to the principles of His government (love for others, truth) rather than the principles of Satan's government (love of self, compelling force).
God has always done all He can to bring sin to an end, not perpetuate it. The 1,000 years are necessary to answer all of the questions of the redeemed. After these questions are answered, God can turn to the questions of the wicked. After those questions are answered, all the questions have been answered. There's no reason for sin to continue to exist.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11222
12/02/04 09:37 PM
12/02/04 09:37 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Yes, that's all well and fine, but you didn't comment on the most important point of my last post to you - the conclusion of the whole matter. quote:
Since these things are so, then it stands to reason that the wicked will be destroyed the moment God “walks on the scene”, unless, of course, He chooses to conceal His brightness. Thus, whether or not they die depends on whether or not God conceals His glory, which means God is ultimately responsible - which is a good thing, because I'd rather have God in control.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11223
12/02/04 10:10 PM
12/02/04 10:10 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
God has chosen to put us in control. We decide whether we live or die. quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
This makes it as plain as can be stated that it is by the choice of the wicked that they die. God would rather they live, but they choose to die, and God respects their choice. Here's another statement that brings out the same principle:
quote:
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11224
12/03/04 02:06 AM
12/03/04 02:06 AM
|
|
|
Mike,
We are getting into the area of study where two parties can easily disagree and both be technically correct. The relevant quote says, "From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate." Tell me, what "beginning?" The way you refer to it makes it sound like you believe she means all the way back at the beginning of God, whenever that was. But there is no reason to go back that far. It more likely means God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan at the moment Satan began to apostatize and of the fall of man at the moment Adam took the "apple" out of Eve's hand to eat it. There is no possible way God could have known where apostasy would originate before it actually happened. Unless you've found some reference I've missed; that seems to be one of the "concepts of men" we're told to ignore, not a truth from God. That is unless you believe God deliberately made Satan for the purpose of rebelling and made Adam to provide a medium to demonstrate the problem of sin to the universe (like my cousin believes).
You did try to differentiate between God creating the potential for sin and death (which I believe) and God forcing Satan or mankind to sin, but you didn't add the third option that God could possibly know of Satan's and Adam's actions in advance without influencing that action. As you may surmise, I see foreknowledge of an action as identical to forcing that action. There are many who don't see it that way and I get the impression you are one of them. At this stage of our spiritual development, there isn't much way to tell which of us is correct if either.
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11225
12/03/04 04:18 AM
12/03/04 04:18 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
"I see foreknowledge of an action as identical to forcing that action."
I think you can tell if you are following our discussions that I in general agree with your point of view, but I disagree with the above sentence. I think your thinking in general is correct, but your statement is IMO inaccurate.
First of all, I have foreknowledge of my wife, and I'm not forcing her action. I know if I call her around quitting time she will say to me, "Vem para casa." (Come home). She always says that. I'm certainly not forcing her to do so.
Certain individuals have fixed their characters having either settled into truth or error, so God knows what they will do. For example, God knows exactly what Satan will do. He's told us in great detail. But God is not forcing Satan's actions.
I think a more accurate way of putting things is that if God has exhaustive definate foreknowledge (EDF) then the future must be fixed and if the future is fixed then we cannot have free will. Hence EDF is logically imcompattible with free will. However God's foreknowledge of actions does not cause our actions.
At least that's not how I see it. I'll await your response.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11226
12/03/04 05:36 AM
12/03/04 05:36 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Jesus cannot justify forgiving someone who refuses to crucify known sin.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11227
12/03/04 05:42 AM
12/03/04 05:42 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11228
12/03/04 06:35 AM
12/03/04 06:35 AM
|
|
|
,
[ January 01, 2005, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11229
12/03/04 03:48 PM
12/03/04 03:48 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, are you implying Jesus will justify the wicked, who refuse to repent, who refuse to crucify their known sins, who cling to their pet sins? If not, then what are the conditions upon which Jesus can justify sinners? justify them unto salvation and eternal life?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11230
12/03/04 10:04 PM
12/03/04 10:04 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I'm not following you Mike.
I wrote:
"God has chosen to put us in control. We decide whether we live or die."
To which you replied:
"Jesus cannot justify forgiving someone who refuses to crucify known sin."
What's your train of thought? Where did your comment come from? How did you get from what I wrote to what you wrote? Or was your response meant for someone else?
I responded that Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." This shows that forgivenss is in God's heart (Jesus was God). Forgiveness springs from God. Certainly those crucifying Christ were not "crucifying known sin," yet Jesus prayed for God to forgive them. Was Jesus praying contrary to God's will. Was His theology confused?
To this you responded, "Tom, are you implying Jesus will justify the wicked, who refuse to repent, who refuse to crucify their known sins, who cling to their pet sins? If not, then what are the conditions upon which Jesus can justify sinners? justify them unto salvation and eternal life?"
I can't follow this jump any more than the other. Please explain your reasoning for both jumps.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11231
12/04/04 12:14 AM
12/04/04 12:14 AM
|
Posting New Member
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 14
US
|
|
We are to forgive those that do evil to us even as thy are doing it. Christ forgive everyone but not everyone asked to be forgive. He has done His part now it is up to us to do our part. As long as we hang onto sin Christ forgiveness will do us no good.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11232
12/04/04 05:11 AM
12/04/04 05:11 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, I was addressing the topic of this thread - Justification. Your response seemed to imply you believe Jesus has forgiven everyone. I was hoping you would clarify.
Edison, I agree with your post.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11233
12/04/04 06:18 AM
12/04/04 06:18 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Sin is selfishness, and selfishness kills because it cuts itself off from God, who is the source of life.
- - - - - Quoted from Tom Ewall post - - - - - -
But Satan and his gangs are alife now and would remain alife forever even they were cut off from the Source of life for thousands of years, they are immortal in spite of their selfishness, where Lucifer is the creator.
Unless God take action, they remain alife forever and sin and sinners remain in God’s universe forever and ever.
I think you really must change your view; it is God who kill, it is God who execute the death upon sinners including Satan and his gangs, it is God who create death in order sin and sinners would not live forever.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11234
12/04/04 07:00 AM
12/04/04 07:00 AM
|
|
|
.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11235
12/05/04 04:25 AM
12/05/04 04:25 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
But Satan and his gangs are alife now and would remain alife forever even they were cut off from the Source of life for thousands of years, they are immortal in spite of their selfishness, where Lucifer is the creator.
Unless God take action, they remain alife forever and sin and sinners remain in God’s universe forever and ever.
This isn't true. Noone has life in and of themselves. God doesn't need to kill them. If they cut themselves off from God, the source of all life, they did:
quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
quote:
God is the fountain of life, and we can have life only as we are in communion with Him. Separated from God, existence may be ours for a little time, but we do not possess life...If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. (MB 61,62)
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11236
12/06/04 04:07 AM
12/06/04 04:07 AM
|
|
|
Tom
In your reply to me, you are indeed correct from my perspective. If anything, we differ in semantics, not in concept. I have always understood "foreknowledge" to be what you call "exhaustive definate foreknowledge (EDF)." If, because of some unusual circumstance, some day your wife says something different than "Vem para casa," she would have made my point. But she would not have negated your point. We were just using different words to express the same concept.
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11237
12/06/04 05:29 AM
12/06/04 05:29 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I agree Boblee that's it's a matter of semantics, but I think it's an important distinction. I've been careful to say that God's foreknowledge does not force our actions, which I believe is accurate. I think accuracy is important here, as the subject matter is difficult enough to communicate, even in the best of circumstances.
God's having EDF implies a fixed future, which is not compatible with our having free will. I think we both agree with this. However, God's having EDF would not, in and of itself, cause us to do anything -- it would imply a condition in which our free will would be a logically impossibility.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11238
12/07/04 04:22 AM
12/07/04 04:22 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
We wouldn't have the freedom to choose were it not for the plan of salvation, were it not for our second probation. Before we are born again we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. As such, we do not have freedom of choice. We cannot not sin. God restores our freedom to choose the moment we are born again. But our ability to choose is limited.
As born again believers, abiding in Jesus, we cannot choose not to sin, we cannot choose to be good instead of bad, no, our choices are limited to one choice - Jesus. All we can do, when we are tempted to be unChristlike, is choose Jesus. By choosing to keep our eyes on Jesus, by choosing to stay connected to Him, to abide in Him, we ally ourselves to the only source of power that can bring us off more than conquerors.
If we refuse to choose Jesus, we sin by default. We do not have to choose sin in order to sin, all we have to do is refuse to choose Jesus, and then all we can do is sin. The choice to be Christlike rests with us, but the power to be Christlike rests with God. When we choose to cooperate with God, to keep our eyes on Jesus, God chooses to empower us to resist temptation and to imitate the example of Jesus.
Our justification is based on this cooperation. If we choose to cooperate with Jesus, then the blood of Jesus justifies us, that is, God is just in justifying our pardon and power to obey. If we refuse to repent and forsake our sins, then God will not and cannot pardon us or empower us to obey. We are the slaves of Satan if we refuse to consent and cooperate with the plan of salvation, we forfeit our freedom to choose Jesus, to choose salvation.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11239
12/07/04 06:14 AM
12/07/04 06:14 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Before we are born again we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. As such, we do not have freedom of choice.
Mike, I can't help but noticing that a lot of your thought sounds Calvisitic. I can't believe this is a coincidence. I'm curious as to what the reason is.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11240
12/07/04 11:16 AM
12/07/04 11:16 AM
|
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
|
|
quote:
Romans 3
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11241
12/07/04 03:46 PM
12/07/04 03:46 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, I believe the following passages makes it clear that we are the natural born slaves of sin, self and Satan. God cannot justify anyone who does not surrender his will to the control of Christ.
Matthew
6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans
6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Galatians
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
5T 515
But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: ‘Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure.’ When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ’s character. {5T 515}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11242
12/07/04 11:42 PM
12/07/04 11:42 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
None of the statements you quoted implies we do not have freedom of choice. Seventh-day Adventists to not teach this. Calvinists believe the will is held in bondage until God frees it, which is a unilateral action on His part. Is your thinking like this? Or is it different? IMO your statement is so obviously not true given normal parlance regarding "freedom of choice" ( that is, your statement that we don't have freedom of choice before being born again) that you must have some restricted meaning in mind for "freedom of choice." For example, an unbeliever can be tempted to commit adultery, and has the freedom of choice to resist the tempation. To be clear, here is your statement: quote:
Before we are born again we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. As such, we do not have freedom of choice.
What do you mean be saying unbelievers don't have freedom of choice?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11243
12/08/04 12:54 AM
12/08/04 12:54 AM
|
|
|
.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11244
12/08/04 01:03 AM
12/08/04 01:03 AM
|
|
|
Glad ta see ya around bro Doug...sheesh, it's been awhile. ![[Pray or Praying or Prayer]](graemlins/pray.gif)
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11245
12/08/04 04:13 AM
12/08/04 04:13 AM
|
|
|
Mike,
In your post of Dec 6, 12:22 pm, you made some statements that sound strange to me. For instance, just how do you define sin in such a way that you can say, "Before we are born again we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. As such, we do not have freedom of choice. We cannot not sin" or "If we refuse to choose Jesus, we sin by default. We do not have to choose sin in order to sin, all we have to do is refuse to choose Jesus, and then all we can do is sin?"
The way you say it, it sounds like all the people who lived before Jesus came to Earth are automatically lost as well as people who have never heard of Him. Is that what you meant to say? If so, what excuse did God use to take Enoch, Moses, and Elijah to heaven? I would appreciate it if you would clarify your thinking on this point.
Incidentally I notice when you posted a number of references on Dec 7 in an attempt to answer this question, you omitted Romans 2 which basically negates your apparent interpretation of the references you posted. It's not really fair to post only the texts which agree with your concept, it would be better to quote all relevant texts and explain why you reject the ones which disagree with the concept you're trying to develop.
RL
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11246
12/08/04 04:54 AM
12/08/04 04:54 AM
|
|
|
If humans since the Fall are truly born without freedom of choice, then the whole human race is doomed, every single individual, and Jesus took on humanity and died for nothing.
If we were born without freedom of choice, then it would be impossible for us to choose to serve Christ at any subsequent time.
It's true that we can't repent without God leading us to that point by the conviction of His Spirit. But if we didn't have freedom of choice, all that convicting would be for naught. Conversion itself is the result of a choice we ourselves make.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11247
12/08/04 05:42 AM
12/08/04 05:42 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Yes, that's it, John, that's my whole point. We only have one choice, to choose Jesus, if we do not choose Jesus then we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. Without Jesus, we have no choice but to serve sin. We have one choice, not one chance. Repentance restores our ability to choose Jesus again and again. God cannot justify anyone who refuses to choose Jesus.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11248
12/08/04 05:48 AM
12/08/04 05:48 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Boblee, yes, you are right. There are exceptions to the rule. God will save those Gentiles, who lived in harmony with their convictions and conscience, even though they never knew the law or the Lord. In judgment, God determines who is safe to save, knowing that if they had known the truth they would have embraced it faithfully. In other words, it is evident to God that they would not have refused to choose Jesus if they had known the truth about Him. Thus, they are justified.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11249
12/08/04 07:10 AM
12/08/04 07:10 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” – Romans 8:4.
“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,…………..which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe….” – Romans 3:21,22.
By walking after the Spirit, the righteous demands of the law is fulfilled in us.
Living by faith in Christ, God righteousness without the law is manifested in our life.
From both verses I see that Christ’ believers that is led by the Spirit might achieve a righteous-ness that fulfill the demands of the law WITHOUT being under the law’s jurisdiction. Being under the law’s jurisdiction means we are oblige to keep and obey the law and would be judge by the law.
Thus, being not under the law means, the law has no authority whatsoever upon us, in other word we may say, there is no law for us to keep and to obey. We are a free man, we are not subject to obedience of any law. At the end, there is no law that would judge us, that stands as a standard of judgment and righteousness. The only judgment against us is: Do we have the love of God in our heart and fruit of the Spirit in our life?? And those love / fruits of the Spirit is the evidence of living by faith.
“Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Romans 3:30.
Justification by faith is based on a judgment without the law. God doesn’t need the Ten Commandments to judge us whether we are his faithful believer or not, God doesn’t need the Ten Commandments to judge us whether we are FIT for heaven or not.
If this idea is true, than why SDA enforced so many laws to be kept and observed??
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11250
12/09/04 04:06 AM
12/09/04 04:06 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, you're right, we cannot work our way to heaven by keeping the law without faith, without righteousness by faith. If we attempt to experience the "righteousness of the law" without Jesus, we are condemning ourselves in judgment, because without Jesus all our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags, nothing but condemnation, fuel for the fires of hell. We cannot live in harmony with the principles of the law without faith in and through Jesus.
The only way we can experience the "righteousness of the law", unto the honor and glory of God, is through faith that works by love and purifies the soul. By faith in the righteousness of Jesus we are justified, we are forgiven, it is as though we have never sinned. But more than this, through faith in Jesus we are empowered to partake of the divine nature, to partake of His holiness, to experience the "righteousness of the law" through faith.
In judgment, the example of Jesus, who perfectly obeyed the law, is the standard of judgment. No one will be rewarded with eternal life if their record reflects they refused to imitate the law-abiding example of Jesus. If we insist the law plays no part in judgment we are in essence saying the example of Jesus means nothing.
But the truth of matter is, the example of Jesus is proof that, by faith, it is possible to live in harmony with the requirements of the law, that the law is holy, just and good. In judgment, the law serves as an unbiased, impartial witness as to whether or not we imitated the law-abiding example of Jesus, and our eternal destiny is based on its testimony. God cannot justify anyone who refuses to imitate, by and through faith, the example of Jesus.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11251
12/08/04 05:13 PM
12/08/04 05:13 PM
|
|
|
Being "under the law" means being under its condemnation. Those who obey the law aren't under the law. They're under grace, having been forgiven of past transgressions.
But those who continue to break the law, continue to be "under the law."
SDAs talk about observing laws because God does.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11252
12/08/04 06:39 PM
12/08/04 06:39 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Yes, that's it, John, that's my whole point. We only have one choice, to choose Jesus, if we do not choose Jesus then we are the slaves of sin, self and Satan. Without Jesus, we have no choice but to serve sin. We have one choice, not one chance. Repentance restores our ability to choose Jesus again and again. God cannot justify anyone who refuses to choose Jesus.
People make choices all the time that do not involve serving Jesus or not. For example, they choose what they'll have for lunch. They can choose this or that. They have freedom of choice.
When you say people do not have "freedom of choice" you are using that phrase in an unusual way. Perhaps what you mean to say is they cannot overcome sin on their own with Christ, but saying people do not have freedom of choice is an odd way of saying that if that's what you mean.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11253
12/08/04 07:00 PM
12/08/04 07:00 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Boblee, yes, you are right. There are exceptions to the rule. God will save those Gentiles, who lived in harmony with their convictions and conscience, even though they never knew the law or the Lord. In judgment, God determines who is safe to save, knowing that if they had known the truth they would have embraced it faithfully. In other words, it is evident to God that they would not have refused to choose Jesus if they had known the truth about Him. Thus, they are justified.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that for those who have not explicity had the Gospel preached to them:
1) God will look not at what their life record actually was, but what it might have been had the Gospel been explicitly preached to them.
2) They did not know the Lord.
3) They did not know the law.
I think this is wrong on all 3 points. First of all, God does not have different forms of judgment for different people. There's only one standard. The law of God. Is a person's character in harmony with that law? Everyone will be judged by the "law of liberty" without exception.
When a person dies, their character is not changed, regardless of whether they have had the Gospel explicitly preached to them or not. Their actual character is what will be considered in the judgment.
Regarding knowing the Lord, everyone in heaven will know the Lord. They might not have known His name, but they have known Him.
Regarding the law, they have known the law after a fashion, as Romans 2 points out, and they will judged according to the light they had, exactly as any other person will be.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11254
12/09/04 01:34 AM
12/09/04 01:34 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Yes, Tom, I'm referring to the freedom to choose in the context of salvation. Regarding judgment, I believe certain people will be saved based on the life they would have lived had they known all truth. Otherwise, alot of Sunday keeping Christians will not be in heaven.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11255
12/09/04 06:20 AM
12/09/04 06:20 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Regarding judgment, I believe certain people will be saved based on the life they would have lived had they known all truth.
I'm having trouble understanding this. Which "certain people" would this be? Aren't people saved on the basis of faith in Christ? Isn't the judgment based on people's actual characters? If a person's character is in harmony with the Law of God, then they are safe to save -- doesn't this apply without respect of persons to everybody?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11256
12/09/04 07:18 AM
12/09/04 07:18 AM
|
|
|
.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11257
12/09/04 03:33 PM
12/09/04 03:33 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, essentially I agree with you, that is, our reward in judgment is based on the traits of character we develop in this lifetime. But what about those people who did not keep the sabbath, or who ignorantly worshipped false gods and idols? Or, who held false views regarding hell?
You see, since the law is the standard by which our eternal reward is determined, none but justified and sanctified believers can be saved. The uninformed Gentiles Paul talks about in Romans 2:13-15 would not survive the test of scrutiny. In other words, even though they unwittingly obey certain facets of the law, they do not, however, obey every facet of it.
This being the case, how then does God justify rewarding them with eternal life? Are they saved on the merits of their good works, or their good characters, or their unblemished obedience, or their perfect likeness to Christ, or what?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11258
12/09/04 06:00 PM
12/09/04 06:00 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Being "under the law" means being under its condemnation. Those who obey the law aren't under the law. They're under grace, having been forgiven of past transgressions.
But those who continue to break the law, continue to be "under the law."
- - - - -- Quoted from John post - - - - - - -
How could “being under the law” mean only under condemnation?
Some one is condemned by the law because he breaks the law, which mean he is under the law’s jurisdiction. And the law judge him as guilty.
So, “under the law” means: under the law jurisdiction, judgment and if you break the law, you are condemned.
Are there anyone who obey the law perfectly? Only Jesus Christ! That’s why he was the only Person ever born that received the law’s justification that brought life, he was resurrected from the death as a reward for his perfect righteousness in keeping and obeying the law.
All of Adam’s descendants who were under the law, were all guilty of breaking the law and are all under condemnation (Romans 3:19).
That’s why, Christ believers were not under the law in the real sense; they were not under the law’s jurisdiction, judgment and of course condemnation. Only those who thinks and accept the law’s jurisdiction, would be judge and condemned by the law.
How about Paul? Was he under the law?
To the Jews I became like a Jew………………To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) – 1 Corinthians 9:20
Who are those who were under the law? They are those people who must do whatever the law says, who were under the jurisdiction of the law and under it’s judgment – Romans 3:19.
Of course I follow Paul, I myself am not under the law WRITTEN ON STONE TABLETS, a law that kills, a ministry that brought death – 2 Corinthians 3:6-9.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11259
12/10/04 03:29 PM
12/10/04 03:29 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, the moment you sin, the moment any of us sins, we are under the law, the law written on stone tablets. Thus, the only way to avoid the condemnation of the law is to obey it. The law does not condemn the obedient. And, the only way to obey the law is to abide in Jesus. Without Him, our righteousness is condemned by the law. But, without the law, condemnation is impossible. God cannot justify forgiving us if we refuse to obey the law, if we refuse to abide in Jesus.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11260
12/10/04 07:47 PM
12/10/04 07:47 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Mike: Tom, essentially I agree with you, that is, our reward in judgment is based on the traits of character we develop in this lifetime. Tom: Not just rewards, but being in heaven at all is based on one's character. God in deciding who goes to heaven does not act in any way an arbitrary fashion. Consider, for example, the following: quote:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." ... The Lord bears long with their [the wicked's] perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543)
Mike: But what about those people who did not keep the sabbath, or who ignorantly worshipped false gods and idols?
Tom: Those who will be in heaven will have the characterstics of having a just conception of God's qualities and will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes.
Mike: Or, who held false views regarding hell?
Tom: Same answer. God will take all those to heaven for whom He will not be a consuming fire.
Mike: You see, since the law is the standard by which our eternal reward is determined, none but justified and sanctified believers can be saved.
Tom: This is correct. Light always into consideration.
Mike: The uninformed Gentiles Paul talks about in Romans 2:13-15 would not survive the test of scrutiny.
Tom: They survive the test of scrutiny or not in the same way as anyone else.
Mike: In other words, even though they unwittingly obey certain facets of the law, they do not, however, obey every facet of it.
Tom: The law is exceedingly broad. Nobody obeys every facet of it. (excepting Christ, and for a time the 144,000)
Mike: This being the case, how then does God justify rewarding them with eternal life?
Tom: The same way He "justifies" rewarding anyone with eternal life. There's no difference between how God judges these and anyone else. Would they be happy in heaven? Or would they long to flee that holy place?
Mike: Are they saved on the merits of their good works, or their good characters, or their unblemished obedience, or their perfect likeness to Christ, or what?
Tom: They are saved on the same way anybody else is saved. Nobady is saved on their merits. Everybody is saved by grace.
I highlighted above in bold a particularly relevant part to what we are discussing. We note the following points: ("they" and "their" refers to "the wicked")
1) A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven.
2) Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them.
3) The glory of God would be a consuming fire for them.
4) They would long to flee from that holy place.
5) They would welcome destruction.
6) Not being hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them causes them distress.
7) Their destiny is fixed by their own choice.
8) Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.
9) Their exclusion is just and merciful on the part of God.
All those to whom the above list does not apply, God will take to heaven. (with the exception of those who are not resurrected, like slaves and children before the age of accountability, etc.)
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11261
12/10/04 08:32 PM
12/10/04 08:32 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Amen. On this we agree. Thank you for organizing everything so nicely. Strong work. God is good.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11262
12/11/04 06:24 AM
12/11/04 06:24 AM
|
|
|
.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11263
12/20/04 10:57 AM
12/20/04 10:57 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Doug.
The reward is according to what you have done.
May I ask; What can you do? The bible said that you can not do a good thing, all what you did is by default a sin.
Through faith in Christ, you may now do the good things, which are nothing else than fruits of the Spirit, none of yours.
Therefore, justification to enter life eternal is by faith in Christ for those who had done the good things as evidence of their faiths.
So, what is God standard to justify a man for his faith? His doing, right? What has he done? Loving God and loving his fellowmen. IOW, what is God standard to justify this man? Love, which is heaven principle; God’s very nature.
But according to your opinion it is the law of the Ten Commandments, unfortunately this is against Romans 3:19,20 and Galatians 2:16; 3:11.
You seem to believe that the Ten Commandments is = LOVE, but I think, you are wrong. They are NOT the same.
If any one thinks that the Ten Commandments is = LOVE, then please convince me, proof it!
In His love
James S
[ December 20, 2004, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: James Saptenno ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11264
12/21/04 04:52 AM
12/21/04 04:52 AM
|
|
|
.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11265
12/21/04 06:15 AM
12/21/04 06:15 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, the law is a transcript of God's character, and since God is love, it stands to reason that law and love share common ground.
FLB 130
The question you need to put to yourselves is, "Am I a Christian?" To be a Christian is to be far more than many understand. It means more than simply having your name upon the church records. It means to be joined to Christ. It means to have simple faith, unwavering reliance upon God. It means to have childlike confidence in your heavenly Father through the name and merit of His dear Son. Do you love to keep the commandments of God, because the commandments of God are God's precepts, the transcript of His character, and can no more be altered than can the character of God? Do you respect and love the law of Jehovah? {FLB 130.4}
PP 52
The law of God is as sacred as God Himself. It is a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, the expression of divine love and wisdom. The harmony of creation depends upon the perfect conformity of all beings, of everything, animate and inanimate, to the law of the Creator. God has ordained laws for the government, not only of living beings, but of all the operations of nature. Everything is under fixed laws, which cannot be disregarded. But while everything in nature is governed by natural laws, man alone, of all that inhabits the earth, is amenable to moral law. To man, the crowning work of creation, God has given power to understand His requirements, to comprehend the justice and beneficence of His law, and its sacred claims upon him; and of man unswerving obedience is required. {PP 52.3}
UL 126
The law of God is the transcript of His character. Those who profess to keep this law, but who fail to show that they love God with heart, mind, and strength, who do not devote themselves unreservedly to His service, [and who] keep neither the first four commandments, which enjoin supreme love for God, nor the last six, which enjoin unselfish love for one another, are not obedient children. "By their fruits ye shall know them." {UL 126.2}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11266
12/22/04 07:33 AM
12/22/04 07:33 AM
|
|
|
.
[ January 01, 2005, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11267
12/30/04 01:45 AM
12/30/04 01:45 AM
|
Senior Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by James Saptenno:
You seem to believe that the Ten Commandments is = LOVE, but I think, you are wrong. They are NOT the same.
If any one thinks that the Ten Commandments is = LOVE, then please convince me, proof it!
In His love
James S
James, the Bible says that the Ten Commandments is the same as LOVE.
Romans 8:13
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Matthew 22:
37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38: This is the first and great commandment.
39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus clearly said that all 10 of the commandments hang on these two: Love God, and Love thy neighbor. The first 4 commandments involve your love for God, the last six, your love for neighbor.
...there you have it both from Jesus and from Paul.
Also, you mention Galatian 16, you need to realize that the Bible not only says that we are not justified BY the law. Allright that is true.
Galatians 2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But the Bible says that those who DO the law will be justified, though the law does not justify you.
Rom:2:13: (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Also though not justified BY the law, those who DO GOOD WORKS will be justified.
Jms:2:21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jms:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jms:2:25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
The Law cannot justify you. Only Jesus can justify you. You are justified by faith. But clearly the Bible explains that you prove you have no faith if you have no good works and if you are not a DOER of the law. It's that simple.
Jms:2:18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
You also mention that its the fruits of the Holy Spirit... and that you yourself can do nothing. The Holy Spirit isnt going to force you to do anything unless you submit to the Spirit. You've got a choice to make every moment.
Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom:6:19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
You really ought to take time to ponder over the Chapter 6 of Romans:
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Notice that if you do not stop yielding yourself to sin (which the Bible clearly defines as transgression of the law) then the end for you will NOT be everlasting life.... THOUGH eternal life is a gift (see the last two verses).
(see verse 21) if you do not yield the fruit of rightoeusness then the end for you is DEATH and not eternal life. and the Holy Spirit does not do the yielding for you.
Heb:3:15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Claudia
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11268
12/31/04 08:53 PM
12/31/04 08:53 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Moses, Jesus, James, John and Paul (at least) all explicitly relate the law to love. God is love, and His law is fulfilled by love. The essence of sin is selfishness.
How can man be cured of his selfishness and learn to live in a Christ-centered way, rather than self-centered? The answer is, by beholding the truth of the cross!
The cross reveals the truth about God the Father, Christ, sin, Satan and ourselves. The cross proves that God so loved us that He gave us His Son; that Christ so loved us that He gave us Himself; that sin is so insidious that it causes the death of those who are identified by it; that Satan really is a liar, theif and murderer, just like Jesus said; and that we would murder our Creator apart from the grace of God.
As we perceive the heigh and depth and length and breadth of the love of God, by beholding we become tranformed into the same image.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11269
01/01/05 07:47 PM
01/01/05 07:47 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
I agree that the Ten Commandments is a transcript of God’s character, a holy, good and righteous law, a law that gives freedom from sin and condemnation for those who could keep and obey it perfectly and fulfill it demands, which in return would reward him with eternal life (Leviticus 18:4,5; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:12).
We have a perfect example of a man that never sinned his whole life, who kept and obeyed the law perfectly and fulfill it demand, which is love that seeks no self. He has proven his love by dying for us to redeem us from our sins.
But is there any other man in earth history since Adam till the cross?
From what the bible told us, there was no other man, otherwise Christ didn’t need to come and die for us (Romans 3:19,20; Galatians 2:16; 3:21).
So, if no man was just and righteous before the law, it means that they were all sinners condemned by the law to die. Therefore, Christ came to redeem those who were under the law; those who were under an obligation to keep and obey the law, under it’s judgment and under it’s condemnation (Galatians 4:4,5).
So far, I believe I have spoken the truth.
After the cross, did God ask the same obligation from Christ believers in obeying the Ten Commandments? If he did ask it, for what? Knowing that no one could be justified by the law and that they all would only come under condemnation of the law, because even though the law was intended to bring life (Romans 7:10) but practically, it brought only condemnation and death (Romans 3:19; 2 Corinthians 3:6-9). Would God keep us under the law’s condemnation forever?
Why? Why should God ask us again to come under jurisdiction of the Ten Commandments, or are we really still under the law’s jurisdiction for it goes beyond the cross?
One solid proof that Gentiles believers are not under the Ten Commandments’ jurisdiction, which mean is not oblige to keep and obey the Ten Commandments might be known from this verse;
Romans 3:21,22.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe;
This righteousness of God that came through faith in Jesus Christ is a substitute of the righteousness of the law that once was a requirement to obtain through obedience to the law. It is a substitution because the law could justify no man due to the weakness of the flesh (Romans 8:3).
Now, if the requirement to obtain righteousness has been changed from obedience to the law to faith in Christ, why should we take the Ten Commandments a law that has authority over us, that has the right to judge us in Judgment Day? Is it really God instruction or is the law’s jurisdiction over Christ believers goes beyond the cross?
Are those verses in John 14:15,21; Romans 13:8-10; Mathew 22:37-40; James 2:8-11, telling us that Christ’ believers must keep and obey the Ten Commandments for they were under it’s jurisdiction and that this law would stand as the standard of judgment and righteousness?
My study says none of those verses above tells us about Jesus commanded us to keep and obey the Ten Commandments, nor that this law stands as a standard of judgment and righteousness.
It is LOVE, the law’s principle that was asked from Christ’ believers to have it and to keep it in their hearts. And love is not obtained through obedience to the law, not by keeping and obeying it love would grow in our hearts, but through faith and a walk after the Spirit, the love of God would fill our hearts, replacing our self-love nature. Just then we have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4); just then, we have the righteousness of God in us, which both are expressed in deeds that are in harmony with the laws in the Ten Commandments.
It is LOVE, as a principle – the principle of heavenly Kingdom that stands as our standard of judgment and righteousness. Those who has this love in their hearts are FIT and WELCOME to enter heaven and live there for eternity, those who hasn’t are rejected, their hearts remain selfish no matter how hard they try to keep and obey the law perfectly.
Why is it LOVE that stands as the standard of judgment and righteousness? Because many who are FIT for heaven and live there for eternity, are not FIT and would pass the law’s judgment if the Ten Commandments is the standard of judgment and righteousness. Because many of them has not the deeds of the law, many of them were non Sabbath keepers, and the most important thing is that all who were under the law’s jurisdiction were under the law’s condemnation as mentioned in Roman 3:19, where only Christ, the Son of Man was an exception.
Now, if we say that “in Christ there is no condemnation”, then the same must be applied to all those great saints, patriarch and prophets till the cross because they too have put their faith “in Christ.” But, in fact they all were guilty before the law and were under condemnation for Christ came to redeem them.
But, don’t miss understand me. Even though this is my idea, but I didn’t say that being not under the law’s jurisdiction I have the liberty to sin and still go to heaven. On the contrary, I believe that when the love of God rules in our hearts, we would have deeds that is in harmony with every single law in the Ten Commandments, including the 4th commandment.
I just do not like the idea that the Ten Commandments is the standard of judgment and righteousness, and my study proof it. There is a great danger of becoming legalistic if we accept the law as God’s standard of judgment and righteousness, and I have seen it all around me.
We are saved by the grace of God, through redemption and through justification by faith, which means, it is all his love that forgives our sins without standing against the claim of the law for our transgression (s) because we are not under jurisdiction of the law.
Love is not the same as the Ten Commandments; LOVE is not = Ten Commandments.
Love is the principle of the Ten Commandments, love fulfilled the demands of the Ten Commandments, but perfect obedience to the Ten Commandments could not fulfill the whole aspect of love. Only when love ruled and filled our heart we may have deeds that are in harmony with every single law in the Ten Commandments, but not the contrary, not by perfect obedience to the Ten Commandments love may grow in our hearts.
LOVE forgives, the LAW condemns!
This is my idea, which I think doesn’t contradict the Gospel of Christ. If I’m wrong, I am happy to find the truth.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11270
01/01/05 08:14 PM
01/01/05 08:14 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, do you think the following quotes teach that the law of God merely condemns, that it is completely divorced from the love of God?
1BC 1105
The ten commandments, Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not, are ten promises, assured to us if we render obedience to the law governing the universe. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Here is the sum and substance of the law of God. The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined (MS 41, 1896). {1BC 1105.1}
The ten holy precepts spoken by Christ upon Sinai's mount were the revelation of the character of God, and made known to the world the fact that He had jurisdiction over the whole human heritage. That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, "This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan." There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO, and Live (Letter 89, 1898). {1BC 1105.2}
HP 144
There is full assurance of hope in believing every word of Christ, believing in Him, being united to Him by living faith. When this is his experience, the human being is no longer under the law, for the law no longer condemns his course of action. . . . {HP 144.4}
RC 55
But while Christ saves the sinner, He does not do away with the law which condemns the sinner....The law shows us our sins, as a mirror shows us that our face is not clean. The mirror has no power to cleanse the face; that is not its office. {RC 55.4}
So it is with the law. It points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us. We must come to Christ for pardon. He will take our guilt upon His own soul, and will justify us before God. And not only will He free us from sin, but He will give us power to render obedience to God's will. . . . {RC 55.5}
1SM 371
The law is to be presented to its transgressors, not as something apart from God, but rather as an exponent of His mind and character. As the sunlight cannot be separated from the sun, so God's law cannot be rightly presented to man apart from the divine Author. The messenger should be able to say, "In the law is God's will; come, see for yourselves that the law is what Paul declared it to be--'holy, and just, and good.' "It reproves sin, it condemns the sinner, but it shows him his need of Christ, with whom is plenteous mercy and goodness and truth. Though the law cannot remit the penalty for sin, but charges the sinner with all his debt, Christ has promised abundant pardon to all who repent, and believe in His mercy. The love of God is extended in abundance to the repenting, believing soul. The brand of sin upon the soul can be effaced only through the blood of the atoning Sacrifice. No less an offering was required than the sacrifice of Him who was equal with the Father. The work of Christ--His life, humiliation, death, and intercession for lost man--magnifies the law, and makes it honorable. {1SM 371.1}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11271
01/03/05 06:32 AM
01/03/05 06:32 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
RC 55
But while Christ saves the sinner, He does not do away with the law which condemns the sinner....The law shows us our sins, as a mirror shows us that our face is not clean. The mirror has no power to cleanse the face; that is not its office. {RC 55.4}
So it is with the law. It points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us. We must come to Christ for pardon. He will take our guilt upon His own soul, and will justify us before God. And not only will He free us from sin, but He will give us power to render obedience to God's will. . . . {RC 55.5}
- - - - - - - Quoted from Mike post - - - - - -
It is really weird and doesn’t make sense to me, the law condemns but Christ believers must keep and obey the law. Why? What for?
Why should we keep and obey and be under jurisdiction of a law written on stone tablets that could only condemn us, kill us. A ministration of condemnation, a ministration of death, which Paul said no longer exist for it has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:6-11). Therefore, Paul was no longer under the law, the same as Christ believers should be, at least me.
Is EGW teaching not against the Gospel of Christ????
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11272
01/04/05 04:23 AM
01/04/05 04:23 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, I'm glad you see the difference between what you're saying about the law and what Sister White says about it. Now, we have to decide who is right - James Saptenno or Ellen White. Who is in agreement with the Bible? You and Sister White both believe and teach that the Holy Spirit empowers born again believers to live in harmony with the precepts and principles of the ten commandments. I agree. But...
1. You believe born again believers are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law, but she says the entire human race is, and has been, since the beginning of time.
2. You believe born again believers are no longer obligated to obey the law, but she believes they, and the entire human race, are.
3. You believe born again believers are no longer under the condemnation of the law because they are no longer under its jurisdiction, but she says it's because their past sins are pardoned AND because Holy Spirit empowers them to obey the law, to live in harmony with it. The law only condemns law breakers, not law keepers.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11273
01/04/05 12:03 PM
01/04/05 12:03 PM
|
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
|
|
Very clearly stated, Mike! I agree with you.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11274
01/06/05 05:37 PM
01/06/05 05:37 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
So, who is right and who is wrong?
But please prove it with the bible only and not with what EGW said because no denomination in the world believe in EGW teaching’s except SDA’s. Some denomination believe that EGW is the false prophet, therefore, how could I defend SDA’s doctrine against a counter attack when only EGW teaching is my defense. I must defend our doctrine with the bible only.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11275
01/06/05 05:38 PM
01/06/05 05:38 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Meanwhile….
3. You believe born again believers are no longer under the condemnation of the law because they are no longer under its jurisdiction, but she says it's because their past sins are pardoned AND because Holy Spirit empowers them to obey the law, to live in harmony with it. The law only condemns law breakers, not law keepers.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
Now, WHEN is a born again believer NOT a law breaker? A year ago? Now? Or next year?
Was there any person before the cross not a law breaker? No, they were all law breakers (Romans 3:19); No one was justified by the law unto life (Romans 3:20); therefore Christ must come to redeem them (Galatians 4:5).
Would there be any person after the cross not a law breaker? Would there be any person after the cross justified by the law unto life for his perfect obedience? No, No one (Galatians 2:16), because they would be justified by their faith in Christ and not by their works of the law, which is not perfect; for if their obedience is perfect, the law would justify them unto life (Galatians 3:11,12) and Christ died in vain (Galatians 2:21).
If LOVE = the Ten Commandments, then vice versa; the Ten Commandments = LOVE, then all Pharisees including Saul (Paul) would be justified by the law unto life and Christ would never be born as a baby on earth.
I mean, LOVE is not = the Ten Commandments, because those who has love in their hearts fulfill the law demands, but those who kept the law perfectly, he might have no love to his neighbors. But if LOVE = the Ten Commandments, then those who kept the Ten Commandments has love to his neighbors and to God, the law would justify him all right and rewarded him with life.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11276
01/06/05 05:43 PM
01/06/05 05:43 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
2 Corinthians 3:6-11.
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
The letter killeth; Ten Commandments is a law that kills.
Ministration of death, written and engraved in stones; the Ten Commandments is a ministry of death, keeping it and be under it’s jurisdiction only brought death to us.
Ministration of condemnation; The Ten Commandments is a ministry of condemnation, keeping it and be under it’s jurisdiction only lead us to condemnation.
The Spirit gives life; walking after the Spirit gives us life.
Ministration of the Spirit is ministration of righteousness; because those who walks after the Spirit would be made righteous by the Spirit that works in them to will and to do.
Ministration of the Spirit is much more glorious than the ministration of condemnation that killed; therefore, the Ten Commandments had been done away with (2 Corinthians 3:11).
What more would I say to convince my self?? Should I believe in what EGW said? Should I use her writings to defense our doctrine against non SDA’s?
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11277
01/06/05 07:48 PM
01/06/05 07:48 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, for those who do believe Sister White is a true prophet and messenger of the Lord, they view her insights as inspired by God, the same is true of Peter, Paul and Matthew. They believe she never contradicts the Bible, thus, her insights are in harmony with the word of God.
They do not have to choose between her and the others because they believe all of them are inspired by the same Holy Spirit. But when you appear to contradict Sister White they do not have to wonder who is right - you or her. The answer is obvious.
Okay, so you cannot quote Sister White when studying the law with non-Adventists. No problem. Remember, Paul, and the others, say exactly the same thing Sister White said about the law and salvation. Therefore, share those conclusions with them.
Most people agree with the idea that Jesus pardons and empowers born again Christians, and that the law no longer condemns them. The law condemns law breakers, not that law keeping saves them. Rather, we are able to keep the law because we are saved.
When do born again believers stop breaking the law? That's a good question. Here is where you'll find that most people do not agree. No doubt you have found this to be true. There are as many different answers to this question as there are noses in the world.
I believe born again believers are dead to sin and awake to righteousness the moment they experience the miracle of rebirth. So long as they are connected to Christ, so long as they are abiding in Jesus, so long as they are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - they do not and cannot commit a known sin. The promises of perfection are true and apply providing they meet the above mentioned criteria.
In order to commit a known sin, they must first take their eyes off Jesus, next they must resurrect the mind of the old man, and then all they can do is sin. But the gift of repentance empowers them to confess and forsake their sin, and it gives God the legal right to pardon them, and to restore the relationship their sin severed, to restore them back to the mind of the new man.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11278
01/07/05 06:02 AM
01/07/05 06:02 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
It's very easy to show from Scripture that the law must be kept by those who would enter into heaven. Perhaps I'll present a few arguments tomorrow. But I'm curious, James, where you're coming from. Are you an SDA? Do you believe the writings of EGW are inspired?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11279
01/08/05 10:20 PM
01/08/05 10:20 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
Law and condemnation? Why do we associate law with condemnation? The scriptures do not. There is no scripture that talks about the 'condemnation of the law'. It was not EW intention to make us think that the law condemns either. Please note her explanation in picture form. Did you ever see a mirror condemn anyone? I didn't. The mirror is not a person hence it cannot condemn anyone. Same with the Law; it is not a person and cannot condemn. Only a person can condemn.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
So we see it is not the 'good' that worketh death, but sin, using the law (that which is good) unlawfully.
If there is a condemnation, it comes from the person in front of the mirror, or an accuser. So we can destroy the mirror or get rid of the accuser, but that does not change the sin in the one before what used to be the mirror.
We need to realize that the enemy is sin.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Shall we then get rid of the light so that there would be no condemnation? This light = 'the life that is in Christ'. That would never do away with condemnation because Christ lives.
What does away with condemnation?
When men turn away from loving darkness, to loving the light, there will be no more condemnation. Then there is salvation, and sin shall not have dominion over you.
Shalom
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11280
01/09/05 01:48 AM
01/09/05 01:48 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Great points, John.
I especially liked the point that removing the acuser (aka "breaking the mirror") wouldn't do any good.
God's forgivenss cannot be tantamount to overlooking sin, or the problem of sin, which is that sin causes death, will remain. God must remove sin from the human heart.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11281
01/09/05 03:18 AM
01/09/05 03:18 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
Thanks Tom,
Just want to stress the difference between the law and the accuser. They are not one and the same.
The accuser is the enemy of souls (a kin to sin within) that uses the law unlawfully.
The law is good and holy. It does not accuse/condemn anyone. It is unto life.
Shalom
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11282
01/09/05 06:38 AM
01/09/05 06:38 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Right John. Also not only does the law not condemn, but neither does God. Jesus said the Father would judge no one, and neither would He. To the woman caught in adultery, Christ said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more" and when we've seen Christ, we've seen the Father.
Sin brings its own condemnation. We see an example of this in the behavior of Adam and Eve. They ran away in fear of God after they sinned, but God was not condemning them. They were condemned by their own consciences.
Sin is terrible in its power, and it's only as we contemplate the cross that we begin to get some inkling of its true nature.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11283
01/09/05 01:35 PM
01/09/05 01:35 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11284
01/11/05 11:48 AM
01/11/05 11:48 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Thanks for your comments John. Good to hear from you. I'd like to hear more on the idea that the law does not condemn. That's a new thought to me.
Doesn't it say something about this in I John. It suggests or implies that our hearts are what condemn us, sometimes justifiably and sometimes falsely. For those cases where our hearts condemn us falsely, the Bible promises that God is 'greater than our hearts'.
Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk after the Spirit. But the converse is implied - there is condemnation for those who do not walk after the Spirit. Where does that condemnation originate? From ourselves and the devil? Do you think the law has no role in educating our conscience about when we should sense condemnation?
The law enlightens the conscience doesn't it? The conscience in turn condemns when it is violated. What do you think?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11285
01/15/05 03:40 AM
01/15/05 03:40 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
Hi Mark, nice to hear from you too. Good thoughts. "Where does that condemnation originate?" It comes from within us,it comes from our judgment and that is the only place it can come from. No one else can condemn us – unless there is an echoing condemnation within. This is why Christ said "the prince of this world cometh but in me he finds nothing." quote:
The law enlightens the conscience doesn't it? The conscience in turn condemns when it is violated. What do you think?
Light, Law or knowledge does not condemn. It enobles and makes wise. Yet it is true that many feel condemned when they are 'discovered'. That is because they love darkness rather than light. Conscience is a true witness and likewise does not condemn.
Our judgment is where condemnation comes. Judgment is a direct result of the righteousness that is held by the person judging.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Condemnation comes from "judgment" which is result of "sin". "Sin" is the antitype of righteousness. This is important to realise. Thus sin and righteousness is interchangable depending on whose view.
In most peoples' mind the judment in the above verse is thought to be God's. However that is not the case. God didn't sin. God's judgment didn't turn to condemnation, but as we see, the second half of that verse tells us that 'his judgment' which is the result of 'his righteousness' results in justification. It is the judgment of "all men" that turned to condemnation.
All our judgment is based on "our righteousness" which being under the domain of sin is the antitype of God's righteousness. Sin therefore perverts the judgment of the Sinner to condemnation. The nature of our righteousness is sin.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? Not by God. (God forbid) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Verse 10 and 11 say that the word of God was ordained to life but "Sin" through deception took that word changed its meaning and purpose to work death in me. So did God intend it for death? No. But sin, works condemnation/death in me by using God's word. Thus sin is exposed to be the source of death.
We always judge according to "our righteousness = sin". Differently we cannot do, unless by faith we subject our judgment to God's judgment.
Lets look at the scripture again,
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
So you see the good = "our righteousness" = what we think is good. When we set out to do it we find we end up doing evil, because we have been deceived and do not see the nature of "our righteousness" for what it is, namely sin. So there is a law that whenever I do "my own righteousness" evil is present with me. Though I see the word of God as being right and good, there is a law (righteousness) within me that turns that word and produces death and condemnation in me.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
What is neccessary? It is neccessary that we cease from 'our righteousness' and by faith receive 'God's righteousness'.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which is of the faith of Jesus.
We trust by sinful nature our righteousness. When we realise that what we think as right is at enmity with God, and that it works death and condemnation in us. When we realise that God is for us and not against us. When we realise that God's judgment is justification and life, and we by faith accept receive his judgment, his righteousness. Then it is that we are living by his spirit.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Please note that the comforter deals with these three: 'sin', 'righteousess' and 'judgment'.
As you see, sin is the antitype of righteousness and therefore it is interchangable depending on whose view it is. Judgment is the result of either. But, oh, such a different judgment depending on the nature of the righteousness.
So much for now. We can drill down deeper in these thoughts.
Shalom
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11286
01/15/05 04:19 AM
01/15/05 04:19 AM
|
|
|
John B. wrote, quote:
Condemnation comes from "judgment" which is result of "sin". "Sin" is the antitype of righteousness. This is important to realise. Thus sin and righteousness is interchangable depending on whose view.
That sounds kinda dangerous to me. Sin is not the 'antitype' of righteousness; it's the 'antithesis' maybe. The opposite.
I don't understand how two polar opposites could possibly be interchangeable. That's like saying light and darkness can be interchangeable --
And this teaching that the law doesn't condemn is plainly contradictory to Inspiration. A few examples:
"The apostle exhorts Christians, 'Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.' Compare your character with the mirror of God's word, see if that law condemns you. If so, wash your robe of character in the blood of the Lamb."
{RH 12-06-81 para. 18}
"Why should the apostles teach repentance toward God? -- Because the sinner is in trouble with the Father. He has transgressed the law; he must see his sin, and repent. What is his next work? -- To look to Jesus, whose blood alone can cleanse from all sin. Faith in Christ is necessary; for there is no saving quality in law. The law condemns, but it cannot pardon the transgressor. The sinner must depend on the merits of the blood of Christ."
{ST 08-05-86 para. 2}
"The justice of God was seen in that He gave Christ to die to save man, for the law condemned man to death; but the righteousness of Christ was brought in and imputed to him that he might be brought back to his loyalty to God."
{1888 Mtl. p. 127 para. 1}
"Jesus has given this invitation, 'Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' In coming to Jesus, we reveal our faith. The law condemns the sinner, and by this condemnation he is led to see the necessity of a Saviour. He seeks refuge in Jesus, and the Son is glorified and exalted as the Redeemer of the world; He is the sinner's substitute and surety."
{ST 06-09-90 para. 11} A search of the SOP using the terms "law" and "condemn" turns up hundreds more like these.
Romans 5:18 says, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
Judgment came upon all by the offense of one; what was that offense? A sin. What is sin? The transgression of the law. So it is that law which condemns.
"The broken law of God demanded the life of the transgressor."
{GC 418.1} If we say we're condemned only by our consciences, we're setting ourselves up to take the place of God, the Author of that Law which condemns sin.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11287
01/16/05 01:56 AM
01/16/05 01:56 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
To say that the law condemns sin is a figure of speech. The law is not alive; it cannot literally condemn. Condemnation is something only a sentient being can do.
Jesus said the Father would not judge, but committed all judgment to Him. Jesus said He would also not judge, but His words would do the judging.
In Great Controversy is laid out the scene where each of those in the Second Resurrection see where they have gone astray. Each of their sins are made plain. Without the grace of God, they are unable to bear that knowledge.
The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that if we had to bear the guilt of our own sin, it would crush us. The wicked have the luxury of not having to face the full reality of their sin during this life, but at some point they will have to face it.
In Christ, we can face our sin, but apart from Him, we cannot. Left to ourselves, it is death to us.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11288
01/16/05 01:13 PM
01/16/05 01:13 PM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
Condemnation comes from "judgment" which is result of "sin". "Sin" is the antitype of righteousness. This is important to realise. Thus sin and righteousness is interchangeable depending on whose view. John (Tie)? said, quote:
That sounds kinda dangerous to me. Sin is not the 'antitype' of righteousness; it's the 'antithesis' maybe. The opposite. I don't understand how two polar opposites could possibly be interchangeable. That's like saying light and darkness can be interchangeable.
You are very right. It is awful dangerous. It is deadly. That is why God wants to save us from it.
I am not certain if I have expressed it just right. Sin is antirighteousness, in the same sense as antichrist. As antichrist takes the place of Christ, so likewise sin takes the place of righteousness in the sinner. But as those that serve antichrist do not realise it, so likewise the sinner does not recognize that his righteousness is sin.
Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Luk 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
Luk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Of course if we recognised something for what it really is, that would solve half the problem. But Rom 7:11 Says: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Now where there is deception there is a lack of realisation of the error. You see here sin uses righteousness (commandment) to deceive. And in that state of deceived righteousness it works death. So there is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
This is why Paul says.
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Also he brings out
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
So we see how sin has hidden in sinner's righteousness creating an antitype of righteousness or antirighteousness, which however is recognized by the sinner as righteousness.
In this discussion we are identifying sources, and so we see two opposites, in order that we may understand what is from who. Most people have a 'mix' of information. There is the natural fallen man's antirighteousness, and there is the influence of the spirit of God. But these two are contrary one to another.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11289
01/16/05 02:12 PM
01/16/05 02:12 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
John B., I agree with John. The IDEAS you are advocating here, and elsewhere on MSDAOL, are dangerous, if not heretical and blasphemous. Please note that I am being careful to say the IDEAS you are sharing are wrong. I am not saying you are a heretic.
Moderators, it is my wish and desire that MSDAOL staff do something about it. Thank you.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11290
01/17/05 05:10 AM
01/17/05 05:10 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
Ok, thanks for reply.
So, you are saying that those who sinned but repent would be forgiven for God had the legal right to pardon them. Meanwhile in the past, their sins had made Christ come and die to redeem them.
Now, I am thinking, is it real that God forgives those who break the law, or is it God pardons because there is no law, and when there is no law there is no transgressions and sin is not imputed. Even so, sin does exist, but the criteria is no longer as “ sin is a transgression of the law” but “whatever is not of faith is sin” and “those who know to do good but don’t do it, to him it is a sin.”
Sin is no longer a transgression of the law, because there is no more law that judge and condemns, it serve only as a traffic light, a means to interpret God’s will.
In the past, when the law still exist, a transgression against the law must be redeemed by Christ’ life in order a man is pardoned. Do you think, that now God has the legal right to pardon sins based on repentance from the sinner? Does this not make him stands against his own law that demands the life of the sinner? Is his action in pardoning sins not overruling the integrity of his law that demands justice and righteousness?
I am a bit confuse about this, I prefer that there is no more law where everybody can live whatever life he wants to lead, but if he wants to go to heaven and live eternally there, he must have the principle of heaven in his heart, which make him FIT for heaven, that is enough!
A man is justified by his faith, meanwhile the judgment is based on his deeds. This is, I believe the truth of the bible, but the deeds are not based on the deeds of the law for the Gospel said: “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” – Romans 3:19.
Therefore, the deeds of the law is not the point, IOW, you may forget about the law, it has no meaning in the judgment and in justification.
The point is, do you have the “love of God” in your heart, ruling your life? If yes, you are FIT for heaven! How about your sins in the past? God forgives it all without standing against his law, for you are not under the law since there is no law that stands and exists where you must obey and keep.
What do you think about this idea?
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11291
01/17/05 05:17 AM
01/17/05 05:17 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Tom.
I am a member of the SDA, but I have stopped to go to church on Sabbath since 3 years ago, because I heard what was preached from the pulpit is always about the Ten Commandments and Sabbath and the obligation to keep and obey it, that a believer is justified by his faith WITH the deeds of the law, which I think is against the Gospel of Christ.
I will first seek the truth, and when I believe that SDA’s teaching really represent the truth of the Bible, then I will back to the church and preach the truth.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11292
01/17/05 05:27 AM
01/17/05 05:27 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Thank you for your reply James. What is your feeling regarding the Spirit of Prophesy?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11293
01/17/05 05:40 AM
01/17/05 05:40 AM
|
|
|
Tom wrote, quote:
Jesus said He would also not judge, but His words would do the judging.
Jesus didn't say He would never judge. Only that He didn't judge while He was here on earth as a mortal human, during His incarnation. Certainly Jesus will judge all of humankind later on:Acts 17:31
"Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead."
Romans 2:16
"In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
2 Timothy 4:1
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom;"
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
Revelation 19:11
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war."
Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Psalm 50:6
"And the heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is judge Himself."
Psalm 82:8
"Arise, O God, judge the earth: for Thou shalt inherit all nations."
Ecclesiastes 3:17
"I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."
Ecclesiastes 12
13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Any idea that suggests Christ will not judge the world is utterly contrary to Scripture.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11294
01/17/05 05:46 AM
01/17/05 05:46 AM
|
|
|
John B.: quote:
You are very right. It is awful dangerous. It is deadly. That is why God wants to save us from it.
I wasn't making the point that sin is deadly. We can all agree on that.
I was making the point that your saying, "sin and righteousness is interchangable," is dangerous, i.e. it's not true. Sin and righteousness are polar opposites, therefore they can't be interchangeable; any more than God and Satan are interchangeable.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11295
01/17/05 06:04 AM
01/17/05 06:04 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Tom.
I have read most of EGW writings since 1981 and I believe at that time that her writings is really inspired, but later on I have found some ideas that I think is not in harmony with the Gospel of Christ, but I rather think that maybe I misunderstood the message. Her writings some times must be read as if we read Pauline epistles.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11296
01/17/05 06:06 AM
01/17/05 06:06 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike and others.
What make you think that the law of the Ten Commandments is important, that a believer is under its jurisdiction and is a standard of judgment and righteousness? Even though, the Gospel of Christ said that a believer is justified by his faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law, WHY SDA church still believe and insist that the Ten Commandments must be kept and obeyed? What are the base of this believe? Does a born again believer that walks after the Spirit needs the Ten Commandment as a way of life to live righteously?
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11297
01/17/05 03:28 PM
01/17/05 03:28 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
quote:
James wrote:
A man is justified by his faith, meanwhile the judgment is based on his deeds. This is, I believe the truth of the bible, but the deeds are not based on the deeds of the law for the Gospel said: “By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” – Romans 3:19. {verse 20}
I believe this insight should be interpreted to mean: "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Rom 14:23. As such, the problem isn't the "deeds of the law" per se, but rather one of faith and works. In other words, if self is the source of our "deeds of the law", then it counts against us in judgment. Why? "Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law." Rom 9:32. Again, whatsoever is not of faith is sin, the transgression of the law.
James, please explain these inspired insights:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24.
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11298
01/17/05 09:42 PM
01/17/05 09:42 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Thank you for answering my questions, James. I asked them to get an idea of where you are coming from, so I can better answer your questions.
Did you read the original post to this topic? I would interested in your thoughts regarding that post.
Thanks.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11299
01/18/05 04:16 AM
01/18/05 04:16 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
John B: As you see, sin is the antitype of righteousness and therefore it is interchangable depending on whose view it is. Judgment is the result of either. But, oh, such a different judgment depending on the nature of the righteousness.
John: I was making the point that your saying, "sin and righteousness is interchangable," is dangerous, i.e. it's not true. Sin and righteousness are polar opposites, therefore they can't be interchangeable; any more than God and Satan are interchangeable.
John B: I am not certain if I have expressed it just right. Sin is antirighteousness, in the same sense as antichrist. As antichrist takes the place of Christ, so likewise sin takes the place of righteousness in the sinner. But as those that serve antichrist do not realise it, so likewise the sinner does not recognize that his righteousness is sin.
Please, I was not saying that sin=righteousness, no more than that antichrist=Christ. What is being said is that the sinner thinks he is right, not realising that his view of right is sin, so in the sinner's mind sin has become righteousness. Therefore the law came in to reveal sin, however sin took further occasion by the law to deceive.
Perhaps the example of Paul while he was still Saul is a good example. While he stood holding Stephens garments; while he zealously persecuted the saints: he thought he was right and they were wrong. In his mind he was blameless. His righteousness was sin, and he did not know it until Christ met him on the way to Damascus.
What was the nature of his righteousness before meeting Christ? His righteousness was condemning. He went and pursued to kill and destroy, to bring suffering and sorrow. His righteousness was sin.
What did it become afterwards when he was justified of the Lord? Now he laboured to save others. Now he was willing to lay down his life that others might be saved. Now he was willing to suffer and bear sorrow that others might be saved. His righteousness was of Christ.
What is the meaning of justification in our life? The scripture says: All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is no justification except we exchange our righteousness for his; and we need to think in practical terms whatever our station is. What truly is remarkable is Saul's zeal of his own way and yet his readiness to receive a totally new perspective; a totally new righteousness. His namesake king Saul on the other hand reveals the opposite.
Phi 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
So when can a sinner be justified? When he receives God's judgment; realizes that his righteousness is sin, and receives God's righteousness: then he is justified of God. How can this transpire? It is by faith that we can receive God's judgment over ours.
Shalom
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11300
01/20/05 07:08 PM
01/20/05 07:08 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
So when can a sinner be justified? When he receives God's judgment; realizes that his righteousness is sin, and receives God's righteousness: then he is justified of God. How can this transpire? It is by faith that we can receive God's judgment over ours.
I'm glad you explained yourself, John B. I was wondering what you meant too. This last post was very clear.
I agree with your thoughts. The way that Waggoner expressed this thougth was that faith does not create facts -- it lays hold of them. The truth was always the truth. We just didn't know it. When we are converted, we see things from a different perspective. Instead of seeing things from our old perspective, which was a lie, we see things from God's perspective, which is the truth.
Actually it would be more accurate to say that we *begin* to see things from God's perspective, since we have much to learn.
You asked how can it happen that the sinner will receive God's judgment in place of his own. You answered by faith, which is correct of course, but I would like to add that it's a revelation of the truth about God that sparks that faith. That is, when the sinner sees the truth about God, that's what sparks faith, or that's what faith latches on to. And this is a reason the cross is so important, because it reveals the truth about God as nothing else.
I like the way you expressed things in the paragraph I quoted. It's ironic that the "judgment" of the sinner condemns the sinner, while the judgment of God forgives him.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11301
01/21/05 03:29 AM
01/21/05 03:29 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
Yes indeed Tom. A revelation of truth about God sparks faith. Without it we would run and hide.
May the glory of God justify each heart.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11302
01/21/05 11:57 PM
01/21/05 11:57 PM
|
|
|
Thanks for clarifying John, that makes a lot more sense. It's like those who will "believe a lie" (2 Thess. 2:11) towards the end. Or those to whom the Lord referred when He said, "Yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." John 16:2.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11303
01/23/05 10:42 AM
01/23/05 10:42 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Tom.
Did you read the original post to this topic? I would interested in your thoughts regarding that post.
My study regarding Justification is as follows:
God gave men his Law, the man that do it, will live (Leviticus 18:4,5).
But since the law could justify no one for their righteousness in keeping and obeying the law (Romans 3:19), which means all men who are under the law were law breakers, God send his only begotten Son to redeem them (Galatians 4:4,5), by this way those who were under the law (Israel) got their 1st Justification and Gentiles (non Israel) received the adoption of son after being justified too.
I. All men has sinned and fall short of the glory of God is justified freely by God grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:23,24).
This justification brought life after death or resurrection from the death (1 Corinthians 15:22).
But this justification is not enough to bring man to heaven, because of their fallen nature, they are all under dominion of sin, all what they can do by default is sinning.
There is a need to transform men back in the glory of God, in order he is fit for heaven, which need a 2nd justification to enter it.
II. By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight …………..but now the righteousness of God WITHOUT the Law is manifested………..which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe (Romans 3:20-22).
This 2nd Justification is based on the faith in Jesus of a believer, whom through his faith, the Holy Spirit would work in him to release him from the dominion of sin and recreate him back in the likeness of God, in His glory and make him FIT for heaven.
Since it is all by grace as God’s gift (Ephesians 2:8,9), to have the 2nd Justification, what a man need is first to believe what God had done for him through Jesus Christ, and then cooperate with the Spirit to resist the desires of the flesh and of the world, which through the Spirit he would be empowered to do what is good, which is to love his fellow man as he loves himself. Having this love in his heart, the believer deeds would be in harmony with the Law, without coming and being under its jurisdiction and judgment, which would only lead to condemnation (Romans 3:19; 2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Galatians 3:10), because those who come under the law’s jurisdiction would be dominated by sin (Romans 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:56).
Therefore, there is no need whatsoever for the Law to supervise us (Galatians 3:24,25), or to organize our life, we don’t need the law to come under its jurisdiction which the obligation to keep and obey it. We are free to live our life and our faith is tested whether we live for God or we live for self.
We are not under the judgment of the law (Romans 2:12), for we are not under its jurisdiction. We could live a life that is in harmony with the law through a walk after the Spirit with faith in Christ (Romans 8:4; 13:8-10).
The Law serve only as a mirror, to remind us of the sin of coveting (Romans 3:20; 8:7). But when we are free from “self”, and Christ lived in us (Galatians 2:20), we would be justified by our faith in him (Galatians 2:16).
I think, a believer of Christ should not come under the law’s jurisdiction, which only raise “self” to control his own life (since the law ordered him “to do and not to do”) and be under dominion of sin again, which is contrary with the work of the Spirit, that wants to control his life, and fulfill the righteousness of the law through his work supported by the will of the believer.
The will of a believer here is not to be in harmony with the law, but to be Christ’ like, a likeness in his love towards men, his fellowmen and loving himself, which many men failed.
I hope I have given my view of Justification quite well that you and others might show me my errors if any.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11304
01/23/05 10:44 AM
01/23/05 10:44 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike wrote:
James, please explain these inspired insights:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24.
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4.
Unquote.
A believer “works” in this matter is his effort to resist temptation of the flesh and of the world, which only through faith in Christ, he would be a winner, for through the Spirit he is empowered to resist it and do the right thing. But all winnings and over comings are not his but the Spirit, meanwhile if he failed, the failure is his.
What is the righteousness of the law? It is the intent of the law – LOVE agape – which is also “the righteousness of God”, a contradiction to our nature, which is “self love.” This LOVE could be our nature, when we walk after the Spirit through faith in Christ.
Works of love, which is fruit of the Spirit, would be the deeds of those who live by faith in Christ and walk after the Spirit. God would justify him for his “good works”, which is also a justification by faith.
This what I think.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11305
01/23/05 07:16 PM
01/23/05 07:16 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, thank you. Do you believe the "intent" of the law was abolished at the cross? That is, how can the intent of the law exist apart from the law itself?
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11306
01/24/05 09:59 AM
01/24/05 09:59 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
The intent of the law is love agape, God nature, it is not abolish at the cross but remain for eternity.
Do we need the law in order we might live righteously as according to the law demands? If so, what is then the function of the Spirit?Does the Spirit need the law to make us do what the law says?
In Eden there is no Ten Comandments, what exist is the intent of the law, where Adam & Eve and their descendants have in their hearts if there is no sin.
So, now, being reconcile to God, we should live the way Adam & Eve live with the love of God in our hearts and that is surely enough to live righteously because it is not "I" that live but Christ that lives in me.
We have a ministry which is superior to the law, the ministry of the Spirit.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11307
01/25/05 04:33 AM
01/25/05 04:33 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, I do not see or read in the Bible where Law and Love are contrary the one to the other. The law is an expression of God's love, and love is an expression of God's law. The two cannot be separated. The Holy Spirit empowers born again believers to walk in harmony with the law and love. Sinning is not the law's fault. We sin, or transgress the law, when we refuse to trust in Jesus.
You and I both agree that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live in such a way that our thoughts, words and deeds fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. The law demands that we experience the love of God in every detail. And, it is the law that describes those details. Without the law we would not know sin and righteousness.
The law doesn't become unnecessary, or obsolete, once we learn everything there is to know about sin and righteousness. The law serves as one of God's unbiased witnesses, either to condone our righteousness or to condemn our unrighteousness. Without the law God has no unbiased means to reward us in judgment. The law is the standard of right and wrong. And, God abides accordingly.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11308
01/24/05 10:38 PM
01/24/05 10:38 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
The law is an expression of God's love, and love is an expression of God's law. The two cannot be separated. The Holy Spirit empowers born again believers to walk in harmony with the law and love. Sinning is not the law's fault. We sin, or transgress the law, when we refuse to trust in Jesus.
Nicely said, Mike!
I'm a little curious about this: "Without the law God has no unbiased means to reward us in judgment."
God could judge us by His character, and that would be an unbiased means, wouldn't it? Isn't the law something helpful to us, for us to see what God is doing? God doesn't need it, does He?
I'm not understanding what you mean.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11309
01/25/05 05:23 AM
01/25/05 05:23 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
You and I both agree that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live in such a way that our thoughts, words and deeds fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. The law demands that we experience the love of God in every detail. And, it is the law that describes those details. Without the law we would not know sin and righteousness.
Unquote.
Are we now still need the law to discern sin and righteousness? Is it not enough to be Christ’ like alone, focusing on Christ through faith? I understand that I fall short of Christ like attitude, for even loving my self I still failed (I still smoke 1-2 packs of cigarette a day and drink and enjoy night lives), but I do love my neighbors, ready to help them in their needs if I am able. But I admit that the 7th commandment held my step to go further in the desire of the flesh.
Did Adam & Eve know about the details of the law? I think no! They were created in perfection, they didn’t need the law! The only law is not to eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.
Are we not after the miracle of rebirth, been perfected in the new mind of Christ, where we would live as according to the impulse of our new heart filled with the love of God? Are we not have the same mind and heart as Adam & Eve had before the fall?
If this is all true, then we do not need the Ten Commandments as A&E didn’t have it too, right? We could live a life that suits God without coming under the law’s jurisdiction with the obligation to keep and obey it, couldn’t we?
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11310
01/25/05 05:25 PM
01/25/05 05:25 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, I believe God uses the law as the standard in judgment, rather than Himself, because He is also on trial. The law serves as an unbiased witness in judgment. By it both we and God are vindicated.
James, I believe our first parents comprehended the principles which were later expressed on Sinai as ten commandments. Sister White makes it clear that they were articulated to meet man in his fallen condition. But just because we are born again it does not mean we no longer need the law. The law continually reminds us that we need Jesus to live in harmony with the law.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11311
01/25/05 05:26 PM
01/25/05 05:26 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
1-17 (Neh. 9:6-15). Father by Side of Son in Giving Law.--When the law was spoken, the Lord, the Creator of heaven and earth, stood by the side of His Son, enshrouded in the fire and the smoke on the mount. It was not here that the law was first given; but it was proclaimed, that the children of Israel, whose ideas had become confused in their association with idolaters in Egypt, might be reminded of its terms, and understand what constitutes the true worship of Jehovah (ST Oct. 15, 1896). {1BC 1103.13}
Adam and Eve Knew the Law.--Adam and Eve, at their creation, had a knowledge of the law of God. It was printed on their hearts, and they understood its claims upon them (MS 99, 1902). {1BC 1104.1}
The law of God existed before man was created. It was adapted to the condition of holy beings; even angels were governed by it. After the fall, the principles of righteousness were unchanged. Nothing was taken from the law; not one of its holy precepts could be improved. And as it has existed from the beginning, so will it continue to exist throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. "Concerning thy testimonies," says the psalmist, "I have known of old that thou hast founded them forever (ST April 15, 1886). {1BC 1104.2}
Law Suited to Holy Order of Beings.--The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was instituted in Eden. After God had made the world, and created man upon the earth, He made the Sabbath for man. After Adam's sin and fall nothing was taken from the law of God. The principles of the ten commandments existed before the fall, and where of a character suited to the condition of a holy order of beings. After the fall, the principles of those precepts were not changed, but additional precepts were given to meet man in his fallen state (3SG 295). {1BC 1104.3}
Worded to Meet Fallen Intelligences.--The law of Jehovah dating back to creation, was comprised in the two great principles, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." These two great principles embrace the first four commandments, showing the duty of man to God, and the last six, showing the duty of man to his fellowman. The principles were more explicitly stated to man after the fall, and worded to meet the case of fallen intelligences. This was necessary in consequence of the minds of men being blinded by transgression (ST April 15, 1875). {1BC 1104.4}
The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned. After the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed, but were definitely arranged and expressed to meet man in his fallen condition. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God (Ibid., March 14, 1878). {1BC 1104.5}
Precepts Given to Guard Decalogue.--In consequence of continual transgression, the moral law was repeated in awful grandeur from Sinai. Christ gave to Moses religious precepts which were to govern everyday life. These statutes were explicitly given to guard the ten commandments. They were not shadowy types to pass away with the death of Christ. They were to be binding upon men in every age as long as time should last. These commands were enforced by the power of the moral law, and they clearly and definitely explained that law (Ibid., April 15, 1875). {1BC 1104.6}
(Isa. 58:13, 14). Every Specification Is God's Character.--The God of heaven has placed a benediction upon them that keep the commandments of God. Shall we stand as a peculiar people of God, or shall we trample upon the law of God and say it is not binding? God might just as well have abolished Himself. In the law every specification is the character of the infinite God (MS 12, 1894). {1BC 1104.7}
Law Denounces Slightest Sin.--God has given His law for the regulation of the conduct of nations, of families, and of individuals. There is not one worker of wickedness, though his act be the lightest and the most secret, that escapes the denunciation of that law (MS 58, 1897). {1BC 1104.8}
Holiness Made Known.--Our duty to obey this law is to be the burden of this last message of mercy to the world. God's law is not a new thing. It is not holiness created, but holiness made known. It is a code of principles expressing mercy, goodness, and love. It presents to fallen humanity the character of God, and states plainly the whole duty of man (MS 88, 1897). {1BC 1104.9}
(John 14:15). Ten Commandments--Ten Promises.--The ten commandments, Thou shalt, and Thou shalt not, are ten promises, assured to us if we render obedience to the law governing the universe. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Here is the sum and substance of the law of God. The terms of salvation for every son and daughter of Adam are here outlined (MS 41, 1896). {1BC 1105.1}
The ten holy precepts spoken by Christ upon Sinai's mount were the revelation of the character of God, and made known to the world the fact that He had jurisdiction over the whole human heritage. That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the voice of God from heaven speaking to the soul in promise, "This do, and you will not come under the dominion and control of Satan." There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus. It is DO, and Live (Letter 89, 1898). {1BC 1105.2}
(Rom. 12:1; 2 Peter 1:4). A Wall of Protection.--In the ten commandments God has laid down the laws of His kingdom. Any violation of the laws of nature is a violation of the law of God. {1BC 1105.3}
The Lord has given His holy commandments to be a wall of protection around His created beings, and those who will keep themselves from the defilement of appetite and passion may become partakers of the divine nature. Their perceptions will be clear. They will know how to preserve every faculty in health, so that it may be presented to God in service. The Lord can use them: for they understand the words of the great apostle, "I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (MS 153, 1899). {1BC 1105.4}
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11312
01/26/05 06:28 AM
01/26/05 06:28 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Tom, I believe God uses the law as the standard in judgment, rather than Himself, because He is also on trial. The law serves as an unbiased witness in judgment. By it both we and God are vindicated.
I think this is an excellent thought, Mike. Very good!
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11313
02/06/05 08:13 AM
02/06/05 08:13 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike wrote:
James, I believe our first parents comprehended the principles which were later expressed on Sinai as ten commandments. Sister White makes it clear that they were articulated to meet man in his fallen condition. But just because we are born again it does not mean we no longer need the law. The law continually reminds us that we need Jesus to live in harmony with the law.
Unquote.
The Ten Commandments remind you that you need Jesus to live in harmony with the law.
I believe that “love” or “charity” remind me of Jesus and the need to be like him.
In 1 Corinthians 13:1-4 Paul described what “love” is, which is a description of the love of God, which is his righteousness and also the righteousness of the Law.
I believe that this description is sufficient to guide Christ believers to become like him, through a walk after the Spirit with faith in him. This supercede the Law, therefore, Christ ordered us to love each other as we love ourselves (John 15:12, 1 John 3:23) which ended the function of the Law for Christ believers. Those who remain under the Law surely need the law to guide them, at least to know what sin is, but this mean they serve the ministry of the letter. On the other hand, those who wants to be like him, through faith and a walk after the Spirit they would have the love of God, his righteousness and become righteous. They serve the ministry of the Spirit which supercede the ministry of the letter according to 2 Corinthians 3:4-11. And for them whatever is not of faith is sin, because it comes from “self”, the deeds of the flesh.
Therefore, I believe either those who were before the cross (COI who were under the Law) and those who were after the cross (Christ believers), they would be all judge by the righteousness of God, his unselfish love in order to be fit in heaven.
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11314
02/06/05 05:28 PM
02/06/05 05:28 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
James, I agree that we need the example of Jesus in order to correctly interpret and experience the law. The law tells us what to do, and Jesus shows us how to do it. If we abide in Jesus we cannot commit a known sin. The secret to success is to stay connected to Jesus.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11315
03/02/05 01:33 PM
03/02/05 01:33 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
Here is my other view.
Why was the law issued at Sinai? Why is it so important?
Because without the law sin would not be imputed because there is no transgression, even though sin does exist. This means there would be no 2nd death as the wages of sin, where sin here is the transgression of the law.
But because God is going to safe men through Christ redemption, there is a resurrection from the death to a 2nd life, and if there is no law, there is no transgression and sin could not be imputed where God has no right to execute 2nd death as the wage of sin, and this would make all men have the right to go to heaven, because Christ redemption has made a justification to all men once and for all.
What would happen then if heaven is full with sinners, murderers, thieves, adulterers, self-loving people? This surely would not happen, therefore, a judgment is necessary to be held at the end of time to judge who is fit for heaven. This judgment need a legal means, and this means is the law as a standard of righteousness, a holy precept which is a description of God’s own character, and to the wicked it is a means of condemnation.
Even though Christ had justify all men to eternal life once and for all by his redemption work, but since it was an Objective Justification, God’s grace towards men, there is a possibility that some people reject his grace for they still have the freedom to choose and more important, nothing change to men character, they are all still sinners in and out of them selves. Therefore, God still must do some thing to work out his grace towards men in order they might enjoy this salvation, which is maintaining this salvation for men who believe it and accept it, for no one could maintain this salvation by their own power and effort.
By his grace we receive faith and a new heart and the Holy Spirit to enable us to maintain what God has done for us, even though he who did it for us, doing his will through us, what is need from us is only a will to live by the Spirit. This righteous experience is a Subjective Justification, for it depend to our will, our choice.
Therefore, the law is such an important means, which could not be annul by faith, either by grace or by Christ death, for it is the Standard of Judgment, to justify us for our righteousness obtained through faith (Subjective Justification) that allow us to go to heaven or to condemn us for our sin, where 2nd death is the wage of sin.
Without the law, sin is not imputed and God has no right to execute the 2nd death upon sinners and there is no judgment to judge people, whether they are righteous or not.
Is this a right view, what do you think?
In His love
James S.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11316
03/02/05 11:19 PM
03/02/05 11:19 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
The law is as eternal as God Himself - it is an expression of His divine character, therefore, it is has always existed. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Since sin is the transgression of the law, it is obvious that law and faith have always been a reality. In judgment, the condemnation and death of unsaved sinners is based on the fact they rejected the means by which God made law keeping possible.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11317
03/05/05 06:31 AM
03/05/05 06:31 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Mike.
This topic is about: Justification.
There are some people in this forum who believes that there are two events of justification.
The 1st: God justify all men through Christ redemption, but applicable only to those who believe him.
The 2nd: At the day of Judgment, God justify only those who has faith in Christ and live righteous as according to the demand of the law.
The 1st is without the law, the 2nd is with the law.
Is this true, do you agree with this?
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11318
03/08/05 10:39 PM
03/08/05 10:39 PM
|
|
|
Why was the law issued at Sinai? Why is it so important?
Because without the law sin would not be imputed because there is no transgression, even though sin does exist. This means there would be no 2nd death as the wages of sin, where sin here is the transgression of the law. |
| quote: James Saptenno |
As the Bible states, sin is transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4) Yet, according to the thought above, sin existed before the law did. How can the law be broken before it existed? It can't! I'm sorry, and I mean no disrespect, but this is nonsensical circular logic, or double-talk.
James, the ball that you just threw (the one that does not exist) just broke my lamp (that also does not exist). You're guilty of breaking a nonexistant lamp. Should you be punished for it?
I know this sounds absurd, but seriously. Think about it. How is this any different than the assertion that God looked down, observed what we were doing, and then decided to make a law that our past behaviour violated, and then pronounced us guilty?
James, you are saying that God is guilty of entrapment, and that He coerced us into sin. What a sad, and totally inaccurate, perception of God you have!
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11319
03/08/05 10:51 PM
03/08/05 10:51 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
The 1st: God justify all men through Christ redemption, but applicable only to those who believe him.
The 2nd: At the day of Judgment, God justify only those who has faith in Christ and live righteous as according to the demand of the law.
Both are true. The word "justify" means different things, depending on the context. In the first case, the meaning would be along the lines of "reconciled," in the second "vindicated."
Also instead of "applicable" I would prefer the word "experienced." Redemption in Christ has been given to all, but those who reject it (i.e. choose not to respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit) will not experience its full benefit, which is not simply the temporal existence we have now, but life eternal. Those who believe the Good News experience reconciliation, and receive eternal life by faith in Christ.
Those who are thus reconciled will demonstrate by their works that they have been reconciled. The judgement will vindicate, or justify, God's decision to bring them into heaven.
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11320
03/13/05 11:58 PM
03/13/05 11:58 PM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Denborg.
Sin does exist before there is law, is not my thought but Paul. So, debate your thought with Paul.
I knew that Paul refers “law” here is the one that was issued at Sinai. And to this law, sin is transgression of the law.
Therefore, if God didn’t issued this law at Sinai, we are guilty of nothing and he has no legal right to execute the death, which is his creation upon men. The fact we die still would make us blame God, if there is any.
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11321
03/14/05 12:00 AM
03/14/05 12:00 AM
|
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
|
|
Tom.
Yes, the 1st justification is God act in reconciling him with men, which is on Jesus account, the 2nd is our action to reconcile our selves to God, which is also on Jesus account as our Mediator.
But if the 1st is experienced only by those who believe him, and without the 1st there would be no the 2nd, then there is no chance for those who never hear about him, isn’t it?
In His love
James S
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11322
03/14/05 03:46 AM
03/14/05 03:46 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
James, I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, but I think you're saying that the first justification is God being reconciled to man by Jesus Christ. If that's what you mean, then I have a question: Who reconciled Jesus Christ to man?
Also it's true that men need to know about God to be saved, but God has told everyone about Himself, so all have the chance of being saved. (See Rom. 1)
|
|
|
Re: Justification
#11323
03/21/05 03:09 AM
03/21/05 03:09 AM
|
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
|
|
What is the meaning of justification in our life?
The scripture says: All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is no justification except we exchange our righteousness for his; and we need to think in practical terms whatever our station is.
So when can a sinner be justified?
When he receives God's judgment; realizes that his righteousness is sin, and receives God's righteousness: then he is justified of God.
How can this transpire?
It is by faith that we can receive God's judgment over ours.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
