This was before his fall, during his questioning time, before he saw things completely in their true light, before his final decision.

Very interesting! I'm sure I've read this, but somehow missed this part:



Is this implying that had man not sinned that the Plan of Atonement would still have had to have been enacted? Seems to be, doesn't it? Or perhaps the context is taking into account the sin of man, so this statement cannot be generalized to the case where man did not sin?

"During his questioning time" sounds like something he would say! His workings at this time were hardly innocuous. Here are the paragraphs immediately preceding what Rosangela wrote:

"Leaving his place in the immediate presence of the Father, Lucifer... (PP 37-38)"

We can see he was doing a lot more than simply "questioning"!

SOP has helped establish doctrine after deadlock in Bible study, so it's not altogether true it played no part: SOP is a "continuing source of authority and truth": isn't that what it says in our beliefs?

Hi Colin, I haven't read the whole context of the quote Tom brought here, however, this quote does say that Lucifer could of been pardon without the shedding of the blood of Christ. So that is quite a strong EGW quote that can negate the belief of "penal substitution".

But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love.

Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761)

As for Christ's death itself: should God not need to execute sinners under penalty for sin, in order to pardon - despite SOP spelling it out very clearly that this is necessary, why, just to alert us fully to his love and that we can come back should we wish, put his own beloved Son through a CRUCIFIXION...??????

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. (Acts 2:22-24)

Why would you think that God "put His own beloved Son through a crucifixion"? The Scriptures don't teach this.



Wicked beings crucified Christ, not God. God raised Him up.

God was crucified with Christ. He wasn't the crucifier but the crucifiee.

God did not "put" Christ through crucifixion, but permitted it to happen.

And when the devil comes and points to your sins and hateful crimes, tell him, "Yes, I am a sinner, but Christ is a Saviour, and He says, 'I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance'" [Matthew 9:13]. Thus you arm yourself with the whole armor of Christ's righteousness. How is it you have not on the armor of Christ's righteousness? What did He come to this world for? Why, if it had been a possible thing for us to have been brought back to keeping God's commandments, He never would have come to this world; but He came here because it was impossible for man to redeem himself and bring himself into a position where Adam stood before the fall. Then what was he to do? Christ came, our substitute and surety. {1SAT 108.1}
Before He came they were under a yoke; but Christ was above law, He was the originator of the law, so there was no yoke upon Him; and the angels were in obedience to Christ, who was not under the yoke. He could come as one equal with the Father, and He could open His breast to the whole woe, grief, sin, and misery, and by an offering of Himself He could bring life and immortality to light through the gospel. This is the only hope of life, and when Christ cried out, "It is finished," He carried out the devised plan. He had died in behalf of the race, as a freewill offering to God. He was not urged to do it, but He took it upon Himself that He might save the fallen race. He goes down into the grave and comes up out of the grave. {1SAT 108.2}
As Satan was triumphing in His death, it was not long before he found out he had overstepped the boundary. In seeking to cause the death and crucifixion of the Son of God, what did he do? He claimed in heaven, and he claims today among the Christian world, that in taking away the law of God they could establish one of their own that would be better. All the universe of heaven were looking to see what would come out of it. {1SAT 108.3}
Why did not God blot Satan out of existence? Why did He not blot sin out? Satan was permitted to develop his character, and unless he had had this opportunity, he would have laid the whole cause of his disaffection upon Christ and the Father. But he had an opportunity here in this world to develop his new principles, and he did it when he crucified the Lord of glory. He acted out his principles, and showed what they would lead to, and we see the same acted out in our world today--what these lawless principles will lead to. {1SAT 109.1}
The enemy has worked, and he is working still. He is come down in great power, and the Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. God has withdrawn His hand. We have only to look at Johnstown [Pennsylvania]. He did not prevent the devil from wiping that whole city out of existence. And these very things will increase until the close of this earth's history, because he has come down in great power, and he works with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish. What is he doing? Going about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. And when he sees those who are resisting the light, and that God does not shelter them, he will exercise his cruel power upon them. This is what we may expect. {1SAT 109.2}
What is God going to do for His people--leave them with no new light? "Ye are," says He, "the light of the world." Then we are to get more light from the throne of God, and have an increase of light. Now, we do not tell you in the message that has been given to you here and in other places that it is a grand new light, but it is the old light brought up and placed in new settings. Jesus gave light, the most wonderful light, as He spoke from that cloudy pillar. And just prior to the time when the children of Israel left Egypt, one plague after another was brought upon the Egyptians, because Pharaoh refused to let the Israelites go to worship God. Finally, the God of heaven suffered the firstborn of both man and beast to be slain, and when Pharaoh looked upon their dying forms he began to understand who the great I AM was--that there was a power above, whom Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, could not compete with or overcome with all his experience and resistance. Therefore he said to the children of Israel, "Go." {1SAT 109.3}