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Re: Lesson #4 - Walking in the Light— Keeping His Commandments
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116361
07/19/09 11:47 PM
07/19/09 11:47 PM
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GC, are you implying Paul's physical problem had something to do with what he wrote in Romans 7:13-25? If so, how and why? No, I think that is a separate concept Paul is communicating there in Romans, and unrelated to this one. This is more related to the "thorn" in his flesh which he thrice asked God to be free of, as told in 1 Corinthians: And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. (2 Corinthians 12:7, KJV)
For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (2 Corinthians 12:8, KJV)
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2 Corinthians 12:9, KJV)
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Corinthians 12:10, KJV) Blessings, Green Cochoa
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #4 - Walking in the Light— Keeping His Commandments
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#116364
07/20/09 02:38 AM
07/20/09 02:38 AM
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I assume you're referring to Romans 7:13-25. As you know, not everyone believes Paul was referring to sinning. There are those who believe he was referring to the clamorings of sinful flesh rather than to actually sinning. Which, by the way, is the only thing "sinful flesh" can "do" (Rom 7), that is, the only thing it can "do" is tempt us to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. I've heard that Paul referred to a problem with his eyesight. Whether or not he had lingering damage to his eyes from his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus I know not. But in his later years, he appears to have struggled with his eyesight, perhaps from cataracts. He refers to his large handwriting when writing to the Galatians: "Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." (Galatians 6:11, KJV) "See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!" (Galatians 6:11, NIV) (I do not know which translation here is more accurate, but Galatians is not one of Paul's larger letters.) Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. (Galatians 4:13, KJV)
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. (Galatians 4:14, KJV)
Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me. (Galatians 4:15, KJV) In that passage to the Galatians, Paul seems clear that his eyes were the source of his "temptation." Paul acknowledges that some of the Galatians would have been willing to give him their own eyes were such possible. GC, how does your post address the following comments: I assume you're referring to Romans 7:13-25. As you know, not everyone believes Paul was referring to sinning. There are those who believe he was referring to the clamorings of sinful flesh rather than to actually sinning. Which, by the way, is the only thing "sinful flesh" can "do" (Rom 7), that is, the only thing it can "do" is tempt us to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.
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Re: Lesson #4 - Walking in the Light— Keeping His Commandments
[Re: teresaq]
#116368
07/20/09 05:28 AM
07/20/09 05:28 AM
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Mike,
I may have been confused by your comments there, but it appeared that you were saying that Paul had resigned himself to a sinful state. There are many who think this to be the case. I was just trying to point out that the thing he had resigned himself to was not a sin issue, but a different sort of weakness in his flesh. Loss of eyesight is not sinful. I don't find any of Paul's writings stating that we must sin, and cannot stop.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #4 - Walking in the Light— Keeping His Commandments
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#116386
07/20/09 02:36 PM
07/20/09 02:36 PM
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GC, do you agree that the following post says Paul was not talking about being so full of sin that it is impossible to "go and sin no more"? I assume you're referring to Romans 7:13-25. As you know, not everyone believes Paul was referring to sinning. There are those who believe he was referring to the clamorings of sinful flesh rather than to actually sinning. Which, by the way, is the only thing "sinful flesh" can "do" (Rom 7), that is, the only thing it can "do" is tempt us to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways. Do you agree that this is what Paul had in mind when he wrote the following: Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. That is, do you agree that the "do it" in this passage is referring to what sinful flesh does, namely, tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus (as opposed to the " do it" referring to us sinning and blaming it on the sin that dwells in us)?
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Re: Lesson #4 - Walking in the Light— Keeping His Commandments
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116388
07/20/09 02:48 PM
07/20/09 02:48 PM
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Mike,
The quote implied that most people believe Paul was speaking of sinning. I was responding to the implication, not your explicit statement to the contrary. In other words, I was disagreeing with that majority of people who may believe Paul was speaking of sinning, as implied here: "As you know, not everyone believes Paul was referring to sinning."
As such, I was not countering you nor your belief, only the implication you brought forward along with it.
As for the latter reference to Romans, indeed I do believe in this case Paul was speaking to the fact that the "spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." And I think Paul was clear that he stumbled and fell. I do not, however, take this to mean that such is inevitable and unavoidable.
(And the more times I read your original statement, the more convinced I am that I was answering a separate, but related, question, and that in this particular case, I should have merely agreed with you. I had assumed you to be speaking of the "thorn" in Paul's flesh, and it appears now that you were not.)
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #4 - Walking in the Light— Keeping His Commandments
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#116477
07/22/09 04:28 AM
07/22/09 04:28 AM
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Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Verse 19 basically says he does evil even though he wishes not to. But he went on to say, "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." He is blame shifting? Is he blaming his sinful behavior on the sin that dwells in him, that is, in his sinful flesh? Can the flesh sin? Ellen White asked and answered this question: The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2} She relates the whole issue to resisting the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh. She wrote: The words, "I keep under my body," literally mean to beat back by severe discipline the desires, impulses, and passions. {AA 314.1}
"I keep under my body," the apostle says. This means literally to beat back its desires and impulses and passions by severe discipline, even as did those competing for an earthly prize (MS 93, 1899). {6BC 1089.7}
Paul was ever on the watch lest evil propensities should get the better of him. He guarded well his appetites and passions and evil propensities (Letter 27, 1906). {6BC 1089.8}
Wrestling with appetite and passion unaided by divine power will be unsuccessful; but make Christ your stronghold, and the language of your soul will be, "In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us." Said the apostle Paul, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." {MM 143.5} In other words, we must fight to resist fulfilling the lusts and desires of sinful flesh. But being tempted from within is not a sin.
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