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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12272
12/21/04 02:58 PM
12/21/04 02:58 PM
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SDA
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Tom, if the glory of God kills sinners, then God kills sinners. I don't have a problem with God killing sinners. According to your theory, it is the glory of God that kills sinners. There's nothing arbitrary about God killing sinners.
Exactly Mike, you are right on. This point is what we agree upon. Where you and I appear to disagree is that I believe that it is the SAME act which God does that is heaven and eternal life to the saved which is hell and eternal death to the sinners, but you have been arguing for two sepperat activities by God, something nice to the saved and a litteral lake of the type of fire that we have when we light a match for the lost.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12273
12/21/04 05:05 PM
12/21/04 05:05 PM
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OP
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quote:
Where you and I appear to disagree is that I believe that it is the SAME act which God does that is heaven and eternal life to the saved which is hell and eternal death to the sinners, but you have been arguing for two sepperat activities by God
This is a good point. Another, which is related, is that God is not arbitrary.
It would be arbitrary if God took some special action to destroy sin, but God does nothing special. He is just Himself, a consuming fire which destroys sin. God does something special to NOT destroy sin. That's an important point to understand.
Here's something from Fifield:
quote:
Any pardon and any forgiveness that would not take away the effect of sin, but that would lead us more and more into sin, and into the misery that comes from sin, would be worth nothing. If the law of God was an arbitrary thing, that did not have any penalty attached to it, the Lord could say, I will pardon you. But when you transgress the law, it is death; and when you keep the law, it is life and joy and peace....
If God had not been wise, He might have pardoned our sins in an imprudent way. Now, brethren, every father in this world knows what it is to want to let his children do things which they would enjoy doing, and he has to restrain that which would bring present pleasure, restrain that love, because of the evil effects it would have.
Was sin ever less repentant than at the foot of the cross? There you have the thing. There was God revealing Himself in Christ on the cross, and there was sin unrepentant, hatred and mocking at the foot of the cross. How did God feel toward those unrepentant sinners? -- "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." That is how Christ felt, and that is how God felt. He did not have any grudge against them. He would like to forgive everybody. But why could He not do it? -- It would annul His law, if it was an arbitrary law; but if it were not, it would lead men to go into sin, and sin and death would result. It would be God simply taking the place of the imprudent father and spoiling his child. And therefore, because He could not do that, He set forth Christ to be, not the propitiation of God's wrath, but the propitiation of our sin, that God might be just, and still the justifier of them who believe in Jesus; because He would take the sins away from them if they believed in Him, and then He could set them free, and be just in doing it, for He would not lead anybody else into sin in doing it.
O, I am so glad that we have a God whose very nature and disposition is to pardon sin; that we have a Father who is not holding any grudge against us, but instead of that is giving His own life, in His Son, that He my so manifest His love as to bring us back to Him, and so give us the life power as to live His life. It was needed that His life should be revealed, and His divine life imparted, that we might live that life on earth; and that is what He did in Christ. O, I am so glad we have such a God as that, who gives His own life to win us back to Him! The love of God is the one changing thing in a universe of change.
I hope the part about the law not being arbitrary was clear.
It is very important that we understand that God is not arbitrary, and that we be able to explain why.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12274
12/21/04 05:54 PM
12/21/04 05:54 PM
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What God does that is different is He resurrects the righteous at the beginning of the millennium and the unrighteousness at the end of it. God doesn't have to do anything special to protect the righteous while the unrighteous are punishing and perishing in the lake of fire. So, it's not the same “strange act” that saves saints and kills sinners.
According to this theory, it is the glory of God that kills sinners, not sin itself. Sin doesn’t kill, it is God’s glory that kills sinners in the lake of fire. This idea contains less error than what has been postulated elsewhere on MSDAOL (i.e., sin kills sinners). Nevertheless, it still ignores the obvious meaning and interpretation of the lake of fire as described in the Bible and the SOP.
The idea that it is arbitrary for God to punish and destroy sinners in a literal lake of fire is absurd and unbiblical. The unshielded glory of God killing sinners is no less “arbitrary” than God raining down fire upon them. The decision to remove the protective shield that prevents sinners from consuming with their sins is no different than casting them into a lake of fire.
No one, that I know of, questions the idea that the glory of God is a consuming fire. No, that’s not the question here. But no one, using sound biblical hermeneutics, can take the following and use it to prove that the lake of fire symbolically describes the glory of God, rather than literal fire and flames:
EW 294
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. {EW 295.1}
Does God eliminate the existence of sin by eliminating sinners in the lake of fire? The answer is so obvious it hardly deserves mentioning; but here it is - Yes, of course. We can try and explain away the obvious meaning of EW 294-296, we can try and convince ourselves that Sister White matured in her thinking, but the fact remains, she penned the same thing as late as 1911 in the GC.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12275
12/21/04 06:48 PM
12/21/04 06:48 PM
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OP
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quote:
"The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon."
This seems to me to be obviously symbolic. I don't know how it could be more obvious.
It is the justaposition of sin and God that destroys. One can look at it as sin killing, which is accurate and Biblical. Sin pays its wages -- death (GNB). The sting of death is sin. The soul that sins shall die.
OTOH it can also be looked at as God destroying. This is also accurate and Biblical, as long as it is understood that this is not an arbitrary act of God. "Arbitrary" means an act of individual discretion, as opposed to a law. There is a law involved, a law of cause and effect. Sin brings forth death. Not because God will kill you if you sin -- that would be arbitrary -- but because sin separates the sinner from God who is the source of life:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. (DA 764)
Note the principles involved:
1) The destruction of the wicked is not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. That is, it not an act of individual discration, as opposed to law.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown. That's the law.
3) They separate themselves from God, which causes their death.
4) God "gives them existence" for a time. If God did not do this, that is, if they were left to suffer immediately the consequences of their sin, they would die.
5) It would not have been apparent that the death of Satan and his sympathizers was the "inevitable result of sin."
The full force of this point has not been understood. What is the "inevitable result of sin."? Is it that God will kill you? If that were the case, it would make not sense to write that it would not have been apparent that death was the inevitable result of sin. If the only reason you die when you sin is because God kills you, then it's not inevitable at all. It's arbitrary. It only happens because God makes it happen.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12276
12/21/04 07:08 PM
12/21/04 07:08 PM
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SDA
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Yes, yes, yes. You seem to think I don't believe the glory of God is a consuming fire, that His glory would have killed Lucifer, that the holy angels would not have understood it. Yes, yes, yes. I understand all that, and I agree with it. That's not what I'm disputing. And yet you keep bringing it up.
The point is, God will also use literal fire and brimstone to not only kill sinners, but also to punish them for refusing to abide in Jesus, for despising His death. Yes, the expression "worm of life" is symbolical, but that doesn't mean everything else is symbolic. We both agree that God will kill sinners, we simply disagree as to how and why. Perhaps we should leave it at that.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12277
12/21/04 07:52 PM
12/21/04 07:52 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If the glory of God destroys sinners, why would something extra be necessary to destroy them?
Did you agree with the Fifeld statements?
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12278
12/21/04 10:36 PM
12/21/04 10:36 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 630
New York
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
According to this theory, it is the glory of God that kills sinners, not sin itself. Sin doesn’t kill, it is God’s glory that kills sinners in the lake of fire. This idea contains less error than what has been postulated elsewhere on MSDAOL (i.e., sin kills sinners).
Actually this is not an either/or question, but a "Both" question, such as "is God one or trinity" or "Is Jesus fully Divine or fully Human"
"Nevertheless, God's infinite righteousness requires that He visit His wrath on sin. Since sin is itself essentially self-destructive, God's "wrath" is the active moral quality against sin. Its own inherent quality is the passive aspect of its destruction. Neither active nor passive destruction of sin could have been understood by the inexperienced creatures. "They would have served God from fear rather than love." (1888 Great Controversy pg 498-499). The consequences are obvious: "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is 'alienated from the life of God.' Christ says, 'All they that hate me love death.' Eph 4:18; Pr 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of him who is love will destroy them."-- John W. Wood, The Mighty Opposites: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White Part one, "Sanctuary and the Atonement" copyright 1981, Biblical Research Committee of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists page 699.
Likewise we can say that by a life of repentance, Jesus will plase all who unite with him so in harmony with God that His verp presence is to them heaven. The glory of him who is love will be their source of joy and everlasting life.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12279
12/21/04 10:55 PM
12/21/04 10:55 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 630
New York
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
We both agree that God will kill sinners, we simply disagree as to how and why. Perhaps we should leave it at that.
Exactly.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12280
12/21/04 11:51 PM
12/21/04 11:51 PM
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Tom, I agree that sin and sinners naturally burn up in the presence of God's glory, but I also believe the Bible and the SOP make it clear that God will use literal fire and brimstone to first punish and then to destroy sinners. Apparently we are never going to agree on this issue until after it is fulfilled.
BTW, did you ever say if the flood was literal, or if the fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah were literal? And, did God uses these mediums to punish and kill sinners? Or, were they just natural disasters that were going to happen anyhow, and God was trying to warn them, to offer them a way out?
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12281
12/22/04 12:02 AM
12/22/04 12:02 AM
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[BTW, did you ever say if the flood was literal, or if the fire and brimstone that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah were literal? And, did God uses these mediums to punish and kill sinners? Or, were they just natural disasters that were going to happen anyhow, and God was trying to warn them, to offer them a way out? [/QB][/QUOTE]
The people who died in the flood and Sodom and Gamorrah died the first death. The people who die the second death are those who consciously have been shown in detail the great controversy and choose to be sepperated from the only source of life since their character has placed them so out of harmony of God that his pressence becomes a consuming fire to them. This was not the death that we saw at the flood and Sodom and Gamorrrah.
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