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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Mountain Man] #126708
08/10/10 07:47 PM
08/10/10 07:47 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
So, in your view, in the third trimester fetuses start sinning, because of the way they respond to stimuli. Before this time, they are not sinning, because they do not respond to stimuli. This is correctly representing your idea?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Tom] #126711
08/11/10 01:43 AM
08/11/10 01:43 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
R: If we are born in sin, could you define what sin is in a baby?
T: The preceding sentence was that sin is in every fiber of our being by nature, so I'd assume that's what Waggoner had in mind.

I can only understand this in terms of sinful tendencies. How do you understand it?

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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Tom] #126721
08/11/10 02:14 PM
08/11/10 02:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: There is a time when unborn infants begin to respond to stimuli affecting them. I imagine it begins to happen during the third trimester. Infants in the third trimester can live outside the womb.

T: So, in your view, in the third trimester fetuses start sinning, because of the way they respond to stimuli. Before this time, they are not sinning, because they do not respond to stimuli. This is correctly representing your idea?

Yes. They are incapable of responding to stimuli in sinful ways before a certain time because they haven't developed enough as a human to do so.

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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Mountain Man] #126722
08/11/10 02:17 PM
08/11/10 02:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Rosangela, I cannot understand why you believe having sinful tendencies (defects, weaknesses, imperfections) makes people just as guilty in the sight of God as actually indulging them in sinful ways (thoughts, words, actions).

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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Mountain Man] #126729
08/12/10 01:59 AM
08/12/10 01:59 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Mike,

I don't believe having sinful tendencies makes people *just as guilty* in the sight of God as actually indulging them. I believe inherited sinful tendencies are sins of ignorance until you become aware of them, and that you just become aware of them when they manifest themselves in sinful actions, thoughts or words.

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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Bobryan] #126732
08/14/10 12:20 AM
08/14/10 12:20 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Bobryan
Romans 5 -- all died for all sinned.
Romans 3 -- all have sinned.

So when the sinner burns in hell - the sins he pays for via the torment of fire and brimstone Rev 14:10 - is not the sin of Adam - but his own sin.

However as we see in Romans 3 - every human has a depraved sinful nature EVEN before they commit their first sin -- and for that we need a savior, we need the new birth, the Gospel.

Yes, sinful nature, common to all of us, is degenerate and condemned for its sinfulness. Each wicked unbeliever ending up in hell is punished there for his own sin and sinfulness, alongside Satan.

Quote:
By contrast Ellen White is clear that Christ came with the sinless nature of Adam before the fall - but with the fallen physical nature of mankind in his day (4,000 years of physical devolution) - not of Adam after the fall.....

Thank you for quoting the official church position on Christ's humanity. No more books favouring that view came out after Roy Adam's "The Humanity of Christ" (1994)...

"Touched with Our Feelings", by the late Prof. Jean Zurcher of our Collonge Seminary in France, and of the Euro-Africa Division BRI, in Switzerland, came out in 1999 through the Review (it was translated from his original French), documenting the change by the church on Christ's humanity from sinful to sinless, in 1949.

The church's position is wrong in interpreting Ellen White as it does, therefore. The official position is a variation on the 1949 position, since that position is now the other minority of the three positions in the church. It is critical to gospel truth to hold to the original, true position - as our current leading scholars concede it is the original position.

Quote:
in Christ,

Bob

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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Tom] #126734
08/14/10 12:34 AM
08/14/10 12:34 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: Bob
So when the sinner burns in hell - the sins he pays for via the torment of fire and brimstone Rev 14:10 - is not the sin of Adam - but his own sin.


Sin is not something one "pays for" by way of "torment of fire and brimstone." Sin causes suffering, misery and pain by virtue of what it is. Sin is transgression of the law, which is agape, putting self first, instead of others (primarily God). Selfishness can do no other but lead to suffering, misery and death.

If we consider how Christ died, we can see what the impact of sin is. Note that Christ did not suffer the "torment of fire and brimstone" to "pay for" sin.

Note, Tom, Christ tasted death for every man.

The condemnation every man is under is not from personal guilt but from being a sinful human: that requires eternal death to extinguish it and free us from it - free & redeem us from our sinful human nature which is condemned.

This is the basic legal bondage we have which Rom 7:1-4 deals with: Christ took our sinful nature as his own, and died the death due it, freeing us from our sinfulness to his righteousness - living to God, despite being trapped in our flesh still. Thus he lived by faith, and so do we. grin smile

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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Colin] #126737
08/14/10 01:58 AM
08/14/10 01:58 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Rom 7 is about the two Adams. They are similar for their positions as heads of the same race, not for sharing the innocency of Adam's created humanity: Christ was born under the law - that involves sinful flesh.

The main point of this chapter is that Adam's fall into sin affected all men, and Christ's meritoriously righteous life affected all men. It's not just a gift for all men, it's given to all men: "came upon all men."

The German Quarterly says about Rom 5:18 particularly is that there's nothing "automatic" in salvation. Clearly there is, actually, as by grace we saved through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus - without our involvement! We automatically have a Saviour, who is Saviour of the world, too.

The depth of Rom 5 is simply that Adam caused by his action a condemnation for his descendants, and Christ, the second Adam, justified the world by his action, in his person. Therefore, sinners may believe, since in Christ they are linked by his sinful humanity which he took to become a man to their Redeemer.

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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Colin] #126740
08/14/10 11:11 PM
08/14/10 11:11 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Christ, the second Adam, justified the world by his action, in his person.

The only justification the Bible speaks about is justification by faith.

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Re: Lesson #6 - Expounding the FAITH [Re: Rosangela] #126741
08/15/10 05:22 AM
08/15/10 05:22 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
(Christ) took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God. . . . {1SM 343.2}


Many places in Scripture speak of the corporate work which Christ did for humanity. I think Prescott, in the 1895 GCB, was the first Adventist to speak of the different ways "justification" is used in Scripture.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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