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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127390
09/05/10 05:29 PM
09/05/10 05:29 PM
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Tom, do you think Enoch was sinning ignorantly before he learned the truth about the resurrection and the judgment?
I am curious, which sin would being ignorant of the resurrection allow you to do unknowingly?
Also, I'm trying to define/describe people who have a correct understanding of all saving truth and who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded; however, you keep referring to people who are living in a saved state even though they are ignorant of certain saving truths and are, therefore, not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. With this mind I would like to ask a favor - I would appreciate it you would post Bible and SOP passages which you believe define/describe the people I defined/described above. Thank you.
As we know that revealed truth is progressive, the full scope of revelation was deeper and wider at the time of Isaiah than it had been at the time of Joshua, how can we call out Joshua for being ignorant of things only revealed through Isaiahs prophecy or Jesus example? Imagen that the revelation is not complete presently, then none of us could be living up to everything Jesus commanded (because even though Jesus will command it in the future, it has not yet been done). That God knows as if it was history about the command Jesus will give us in 40 years doesnt help us. We would still be unable to live up to the complete revelation by default, so to speak.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127393
09/05/10 06:10 PM
09/05/10 06:10 PM
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Tom, do you think Enoch was sinning ignorantly before he learned the truth about the resurrection and the judgment? I would have no way of knowing. I have no reason to think that he was. Also, I'm trying to define/describe people who have a correct understanding of all saving truth and who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded; however, you keep referring to people who are living in a saved state even though they are ignorant of certain saving truths and are, therefore, not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. With this mind I would like to ask a favor - I would appreciate it you would post Bible and SOP passages which you believe define/describe the people I defined/described above. Thank you. I don't think your definitions/descriptions are in harmony with inspiration, so I can't do that.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127395
09/05/10 07:08 PM
09/05/10 07:08 PM
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M: Thomas, so, do you see a difference between 1) people who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded and 2) people who are living up to the light they have received but who are ignorant of certain saving truths and 3) people who are living in harmony with their convictions and conscience but who have never heard of Jesus and the Bible?
V: It is my understanding that IF there exists a difference between your groups 1 and 2, only God can tell the difference. I think there is a difference between group 1/2 and 3, but again, only God can tell what exactly that difference is. Jesus said we can know them by their fruits. We can also discern, without passing judgment, whether or not someone is ignorantly violating the seventh-day Sabbath. Do you think, based on this simple insight, that it is possible tell the difference between groups 1 and 2? And, are you sure only God can tell the difference between the first two groups and the third group? For example, is it difficult or impossible to tell the difference between people who are familiar with the name of Jesus and the Bible and those who have never heard of Jesus and the Bible?
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127396
09/05/10 07:15 PM
09/05/10 07:15 PM
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M: Tom, do you think Enoch was sinning ignorantly before he learned the truth about the resurrection and the judgment?
V: I am curious, which sin would being ignorant of the resurrection allow you to do unknowingly?[quote]
Good question. i don't the answer. Perhaps Tom does.
[quote]M: Also, I'm trying to define/describe people who have a correct understanding of all saving truth and who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded; however, you keep referring to people who are living in a saved state even though they are ignorant of certain saving truths and are, therefore, not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. With this mind I would like to ask a favor - I would appreciate it you would post Bible and SOP passages which you believe define/describe the people I defined/described above. Thank you.
V: As we know that revealed truth is progressive, the full scope of revelation was deeper and wider at the time of Isaiah than it had been at the time of Joshua, how can we call out Joshua for being ignorant of things only revealed through Isaiahs prophecy or Jesus example? Imagen that the revelation is not complete presently, then none of us could be living up to everything Jesus commanded (because even though Jesus will command it in the future, it has not yet been done). That God knows as if it was history about the command Jesus will give us in 40 years doesnt help us. We would still be unable to live up to the complete revelation by default, so to speak. Do you believe saving truth was gradually revealed from Adam to John? And, do you believe there is more saving truth Jesus has yet to reveal? PS - By "saving truth" I mean truth necessary to live without sinning.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127398
09/05/10 07:50 PM
09/05/10 07:50 PM
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M: Also, I'm trying to define/describe people who have a correct understanding of all saving truth and who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded; however, you keep referring to people who are living in a saved state even though they are ignorant of certain saving truths and are, therefore, not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. With this mind I would like to ask a favor - I would appreciate it you would post Bible and SOP passages which you believe define/describe the people I defined/described above. Thank you.
V: As we know that revealed truth is progressive, the full scope of revelation was deeper and wider at the time of Isaiah than it had been at the time of Joshua, how can we call out Joshua for being ignorant of things only revealed through Isaiahs prophecy or Jesus example? Imagen that the revelation is not complete presently, then none of us could be living up to everything Jesus commanded (because even though Jesus will command it in the future, it has not yet been done). That God knows as if it was history about the command Jesus will give us in 40 years doesnt help us. We would still be unable to live up to the complete revelation by default, so to speak. Do you believe saving truth was gradually revealed from Adam to John? And, do you believe there is more saving truth Jesus has yet to reveal? PS - By "saving truth" I mean truth necessary to live without sinning. I believe Truth was gradually revealed between Noah (Adam, having walked with Truth in the garden, who can tell what else he had to learn about Truth) and John, and considering Jesus words; 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Based on these words, I find it possible, probable even, that the gradual revelation of who the Truth is has continued beyond John. The understanding of the trinity is one example of this. I do not know if there is more Truth yet to be revealed, nor do I think it would be a cause of concern for us living now if there is. God has revealed what we who live in this age need to know to find the Saviour. If a future generation need more information, God will address this when the time comes. I gave the example in the quoted post to point to some issues I think your views have. "Saving truth" is a person, Jesus, Son of God, Word from before Creation, Saviour of the fallen, Redeemer of that which was lost, second Person of the triune God.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Tom]
#127399
09/05/10 08:03 PM
09/05/10 08:03 PM
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M: Can people live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded and not have a correct understanding of certain saving truths?
T: Sure. It's not dependent upon knowledge, but light; that is, how one responds to the light that one has. Enoch is a prime example of this. There were things he didn't understand. For example, he didn't know there would be a resurrection or a judgment until God revealed these things to him in a dream, yet he was described as walking with God.
M: Tom, do you think Enoch was sinning ignorantly before he learned the truth about the resurrection and the judgment?
T: I would have no way of knowing. I have no reason to think that he was. Again, can people live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded and not have a correct understanding of certain saving truths? By "saving truth" I mean truth necessary to live without sinning, truths necessary to be translated alive when Jesus returns. M: Also, I'm trying to define/describe people who have a correct understanding of all saving truth and who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded; however, you keep referring to people who are living in a saved state even though they are ignorant of certain saving truths and are, therefore, not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. With this mind I would like to ask a favor - I would appreciate it you would post Bible and SOP passages which you believe define/describe the people I defined/described above. Thank you.
T: I don't think your definitions/descriptions are in harmony with inspiration, so I can't do that. Does the Bible or the SOP define/describe people who understand all saving truths and are living without sinning? If so, please post some of them. I assume you and I will agree that the passages defining/describing the 144,000 reflect what I'm asking, but what about before probation closes, what about now?
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127405
09/05/10 11:55 PM
09/05/10 11:55 PM
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M: Can people live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded and not have a correct understanding of certain saving truths?
T: Sure. It's not dependent upon knowledge, but light; that is, how one responds to the light that one has. Enoch is a prime example of this. There were things he didn't understand. For example, he didn't know there would be a resurrection or a judgment until God revealed these things to him in a dream, yet he was described as walking with God.
M: Tom, do you think Enoch was sinning ignorantly before he learned the truth about the resurrection and the judgment?
T: I would have no way of knowing. I have no reason to think that he was.
M:Again, can people live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded and not have a correct understanding of certain saving truths? To be saved, the only "saving truth" that's necessary to know is not to resist the Holy Spirit as He reveals the love of God shining from the cross. By "saving truth" I mean truth necessary to live without sinning, truths necessary to be translated alive when Jesus returns. That's an odd term to use. "Saving truth" means truth that's necessary to be saved, one would think.
M: Also, I'm trying to define/describe people who have a correct understanding of all saving truth and who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded; however, you keep referring to people who are living in a saved state even though they are ignorant of certain saving truths and are, therefore, not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. With this mind I would like to ask a favor - I would appreciate it you would post Bible and SOP passages which you believe define/describe the people I defined/described above. Thank you.
T: I don't think your definitions/descriptions are in harmony with inspiration, so I can't do that.
M:Does the Bible or the SOP define/describe people who understand all saving truths and are living without sinning? If so, please post some of them. I assume you and I will agree that the passages defining/describing the 144,000 reflect what I'm asking, but what about before probation closes, what about now?
I think inspiration deals more in terms of reproducing Christ's character. I think it's necessary to know that character to reproduce it.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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