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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Tom]
#127416
09/06/10 02:53 PM
09/06/10 02:53 PM
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M: Can people live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded and not have a correct understanding of certain saving truths?
T: Sure. It's not dependent upon knowledge, but light; that is, how one responds to the light that one has. Enoch is a prime example of this. There were things he didn't understand. For example, he didn't know there would be a resurrection or a judgment until God revealed these things to him in a dream, yet he was described as walking with God.
M: Tom, do you think Enoch was sinning ignorantly before he learned the truth about the resurrection and the judgment?
T: I would have no way of knowing. I have no reason to think that he was.
M:Again, can people live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded and not have a correct understanding of certain saving truths? To be saved, the only "saving truth" that's necessary to know is not to resist the Holy Spirit as He reveals the love of God shining from the cross. By "saving truth" I mean truth necessary to live without sinning, truths necessary to be translated alive when Jesus returns. That's an odd term to use. "Saving truth" means truth that's necessary to be saved, one would think.
M: Also, I'm trying to define/describe people who have a correct understanding of all saving truth and who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded; however, you keep referring to people who are living in a saved state even though they are ignorant of certain saving truths and are, therefore, not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. With this mind I would like to ask a favor - I would appreciate it you would post Bible and SOP passages which you believe define/describe the people I defined/described above. Thank you.
T: I don't think your definitions/descriptions are in harmony with inspiration, so I can't do that.
M:Does the Bible or the SOP define/describe people who understand all saving truths and are living without sinning? If so, please post some of them. I assume you and I will agree that the passages defining/describing the 144,000 reflect what I'm asking, but what about before probation closes, what about now?
I think inspiration deals more in terms of reproducing Christ's character. I think it's necessary to know that character to reproduce it. Please explain how your comments answer my questions.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127417
09/06/10 03:11 PM
09/06/10 03:11 PM
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M: Thomas, I'm having a hard time nailing down what you believe as it relates to saving truth like the seventh-day Sabbath. Do you believe people will be translated alive when Jesus arrives who have never kept the seven-day Sabbath?
V: The Truth which saves is Jesus Christ. Translation alive surely is founded in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. What is the emphasis on teaching found there? The resurrection of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead. Wider context would be the proper use of the gifts of the Spirit, with the 13th chapter pointing out what is proper. Saving truths like the seventh day sabbath.. who can tell... If saving truth is Jesus, what, then, is the truth about the seventh-day Sabbath, especially taking into consideration what it is says about the mark of the beast in the Bible and in the SOP? ..what, then, is the truth about the seventh-day Sabbath..? Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127418
09/06/10 03:15 PM
09/06/10 03:15 PM
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You have a certain way of looking at things, and I have a different way. That's what my response was trying to put out. I can't really respond to your questions directly without agreeing with how you are characterizing things, can I? That is, your questions, as is so often the case, involve a tacit admission that the assumptions that are implicit in the questions are correct.
So I responded that I think the issue is not primarily one of "not sinning" or "knowing all things that Christ commanded," but of "reproducing Christ's character." COL 69 says that Christ is longing for a manifestation of Himself in His church, and that when His character is reproduced, then He will come and "claim them as His own." I believe the first step to reproducing Christ's character is to understand what that character is.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127429
09/07/10 12:49 AM
09/07/10 12:49 AM
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M: Thomas, I'm having a hard time nailing down what you believe as it relates to saving truth like the seventh-day Sabbath. Do you believe people will be translated alive when Jesus arrives who have never kept the seven-day Sabbath?
V: The Truth which saves is Jesus Christ. Translation alive surely is founded in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. What is the emphasis on teaching found there? The resurrection of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead. Wider context would be the proper use of the gifts of the Spirit, with the 13th chapter pointing out what is proper. Saving truths like the seventh day sabbath.. who can tell... If saving truth is Jesus, what, then, is the truth about the seventh-day Sabbath, especially taking into consideration what it is says about the mark of the beast in the Bible and in the SOP? ..what, then, is the truth about the seventh-day Sabbath..? Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. I assume you are aware of the SDA eschatological position on Rev 14:9-12 and the mark of the beast. Do you agree everyone who will be translated alive when Jesus arrives will have made the decision to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, and everyone who will be destroyed when Jesus arrives will have made the decision to reject it?
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127432
09/07/10 04:00 AM
09/07/10 04:00 AM
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If saving truth is Jesus, what, then, is the truth about the seventh-day Sabbath, especially taking into consideration what it is says about the mark of the beast in the Bible and in the SOP?
..what, then, is the truth about the seventh-day Sabbath..? Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. I assume you are aware of the SDA eschatological position on Rev 14:9-12 and the mark of the beast. Do you agree everyone who will be translated alive when Jesus arrives will have made the decision to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, and everyone who will be destroyed when Jesus arrives will have made the decision to reject it? I am aware of this, and I agree, it makes little sense. For 2000 years it is: 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. But then, one of these days it will supposedly change into: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized and keeps the right sabbath shall be saved; but he that believeth not and keeps the false sabbath shall be damned.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: vastergotland]
#127435
09/07/10 06:11 AM
09/07/10 06:11 AM
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Tom, do you suspect there are individuals nowadays who have perfectly reproduced the character of Christ? If so, can they also simultaneously sin ignorantly? Can non-SDAs reproduce the character of Christ perfectly? I think the quote is dealing with the body of Christ. I don't believe the body of Christ is doing so now.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
[Re: Tom]
#127436
09/07/10 06:15 AM
09/07/10 06:15 AM
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I am aware of this, and I agree, it makes little sense. For 2000 years it is: 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
But then, one of these days it will supposedly change into:
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized and keeps the right sabbath shall be saved; but he that believeth not and keeps the false sabbath shall be damned. You're right, this doesn't make sense. Waggoner did a wonderful job explaining this prophecy in "Bible Studies in Romans," which I think can be found online. I think these were taken from sermons from 1891. He speaks of how the first angel's message is the everlasting gospel, and the other angels followed the first, meaning they also proclaimed the gospel. EGW referred to the message brought by Jones and Waggoner as "light" which was "to fill the earth with glory." It was a message about Christ; it was the gospel. The sabbath was presented in the context of righteousness by faith, and these and other passages were explained in a way that did make sense. It's a pity their work is but little known and little heeded. We keep falling into the same mistakes.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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