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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: Rosangela] #127702
09/23/10 04:17 AM
09/23/10 04:17 AM
asygo  Offline
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California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Roma 14:21 [It] [is] good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor [do] [anything] by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

Now here is a very important verse. This is where Paul actually clarifies that he is talking about meat offered to idols. It is hidden from our eyes by translation but it is nonetheless there! Let's look at the Greek word that is translated "meat" here...

BDB/Thayers # 2907 2907 kreas {kreh'-as} perhaps a primary word;; n n AV - flesh 2; 2 1) (the) flesh (of a sacrificed animal)

In fact it is this same word that is used in

1Cor 8:13 (NKJV) Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

This is the only 2 places in the New Testament that it is used. In both cases the context was concerning meat offered to idols! Notice that even though it was obvious from reading the first and second verses of this chapter that he was talking about meat, this is the first time that the food that is spoken of here in Romans is classified as 'meat'. So this certainly clarifies things.


http://www.eliyah.com/romans14.html

Now that's more along the lines of what I'm looking for. Thanks.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: Mountain Man] #127706
09/23/10 06:57 AM
09/23/10 06:57 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It would include people who refuse to be vegetarian when their circumstances make it perfectly possible.
In Pauls case, the weak brother is someone who limits his circumstances out of fear of otherwise committing sin out of ignorance. How exactly does this compare with choosing not to be vegetarian? Can it be related unless not being vegetarian is somehow sinful? Is not being vegetarian sinful? And if so, who got the authority to rewrite the sin catalogue?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: Rosangela] #127713
09/23/10 03:44 PM
09/23/10 03:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: In the context of Romans 14 a weaker brother is someone who hasn't accepted the truth regarding clean foods dedicated to pagan idols.

V: And who would the weak brother be in other contexts?

M: It would include people who refuse to be vegetarian when their circumstances make it perfectly possible.

R: Hey Mike, this answer seems to be in disagreement with the passage in question: Romans 14:2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.

Rosangela, yes, you're right. But Thomas was asking about applying principles to other contexts. Paul said, "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (verse 23)

Thomas, faith is based on the word of God. The SOP is a continuing source of truth. It reflects the word of God. Nowadays God requires us to be vegetarian when circumstances are favorable. Anyone who "doubteth is damned if he eat". It is a "sin".

"Greater reforms should be seen among the people who claim to be looking for the soon appearing of Christ. Health reform is to do among our people a work which it has not yet done. There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating, who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people to walk no more with them. {CD 382.1}

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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: Mountain Man] #127726
09/23/10 06:28 PM
09/23/10 06:28 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Thomas, faith is based on the word of God. The SOP is a continuing source of truth. It reflects the word of God. Nowadays God requires us to be vegetarian when circumstances are favorable. Anyone who "doubteth is damned if he eat". It is a "sin".

"Greater reforms should be seen among the people who claim to be looking for the soon appearing of Christ. Health reform is to do among our people a work which it has not yet done. There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating, who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people to walk no more with them. {CD 382.1}
It is strange though, how things change. All vegetarians or vegans living in Egypt during the 10 plagues would have seen their eldest child taken by the last curse due to refusal to kill that lamb. Under the mosaic law, they could not have given thanksgiving offerings which were to be eaten on that same day as they were given. Similarly they were to eat lamb in remembrance of their delivery from Egypt at passover.

But apparently some parts of the law can change so that what was once demanded, now the very same thing is sinful. One wonders which other parts of the law are now sinful to follow..


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: vastergotland] #127728
09/23/10 07:19 PM
09/23/10 07:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Thomas, good point. Do you imagine the Jews eating several pounds of diseased flesh? Or, do you suspect they eat a mere morsel? And, do you view it as a dietary law? Or, it was it a ceremonial law slated to end with Jesus' death on the cross? Also, have you ever eaten kosher flesh (completely devoid of fat and blood)? Or, do you eat it dripping with blood and fat like everyone else does? And, does it matter it to you that it is infected with disease?

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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: Mountain Man] #127741
09/24/10 07:59 AM
09/24/10 07:59 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
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Eating diseased meat is foolish, just as eating diseased vegetables is foolish. But you are in your full right to make foolish mistakes. Foolishness is not a criteria which bars anyone from Gods kingdom. In fact, Paul tells us that the very pillars of faith which guides someone to that Kingdom are regarded as foolishness by outsiders.

Being a vegetarian is not a bad thing, my diet is vegetarian most of the time. Being a vegetarian for the wrong reasons can be a bad thing. If you thereby try to eat yourself to salvation, or if you have scruples which you impose on "the weak brother", then you are in the zone of sinful behaviour. But otherwise, the Kingdom is not a matter of food. The one who eats and the one who does not eat each following his or her conscience and giving thanks to God are standing by His strength. The points made above are supported by Scripture, and we presumably still stand with the following quote:

"The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. "

The bible contains the knowledge necessary for salvation, supply the standard of character and is the authoritative revealer of doctrine. This leaves no real space for overthrowing biblical teaching in favour of other sources, does it?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: vastergotland] #127743
09/24/10 12:13 PM
09/24/10 12:13 PM
Daryl  Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
What do you mean by "other sources"?
Originally Posted By: västergötland
This leaves no real space for overthrowing biblical teaching in favour of other sources, does it?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: Daryl] #127744
09/24/10 12:16 PM
09/24/10 12:16 PM
Daryl  Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
What do you think of the following from Tuesday's section?
Quote:
Have you heard someone say, “It is none of anyone’s business what I eat or what I wear or what kind of entertainment I engage in”? Is it really? None of us live in a vacuum. Our actions, words, deeds, and even diet can affect others, either for good or for bad. It’s not hard to see how. If someone who looks up to you sees you doing something “wrong,” he or she could be influenced by your example to do that same thing. We fool ourselves if we think otherwise. To argue that, well, you didn’t force the person is beside the point. As Christians, we have a responsibility to one another, and if our example can lead someone astray, we are culpable.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: Daryl] #127745
09/24/10 01:46 PM
09/24/10 01:46 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
What do you mean by "other sources"?
Originally Posted By: västergötland
This leaves no real space for overthrowing biblical teaching in favour of other sources, does it?
I suppose that would be sources which are not within the 66 books of the biblical canon?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #13 - All the Rest Is COMMENTARY [Re: vastergotland] #127747
09/24/10 02:28 PM
09/24/10 02:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, yes, no one can eat their way to heaven or deserve salvation because of how they eat. However, a fully informed SDA will eventually separate themselves from the SDA church if they refuse to comply with the counsels regarding diet and health reform contained in the SOP. By the way, deliberately eating something diseased and unhealthy is a sin. Paul wrote, "He that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." And Ellen wrote:

What we eat and drink has an important bearing upon our lives and characters, and Christians should bring their habits of eating and drinking into conformity to the laws of nature. We must sense our obligations to God in these matters. Obedience to the laws of health should be made a matter of earnest study, for willing ignorance on this subject is sin. Each one should feel a personal obligation to carry out the laws of healthful living. {14MR 300.1}

Many turn away from the light, offended because a word of caution is given, and ask, "May we not do as we please with ourselves?" Did you create yourselves? Did you pay the redemption price for your souls and bodies? If so, you belong to yourselves. But the Word of God declares, "Ye are bought with a price," "the precious blood of Christ." The Word of God tells us plainly that our habits are to be strictly guarded and controlled. "Abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul." Shall we do this? The Word of God is perfect, converting the soul. If we diligently heed its precepts, we shall be conformed, physically, spiritually into the image of God. [Romans 12:1, 2; 3:17; 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20, quoted.] {14MR 300.2}

Men and women cannot violate natural law by indulging depraved appetite and lustful passions, and not violate the law of God. Therefore He has permitted the light of health reform to shine upon us, that we may see our sin in violating the laws which He has established in our being. All our enjoyment or suffering may be traced to obedience or transgression of natural law. Our gracious heavenly Father sees the deplorable condition of men who, some knowingly but many ignorantly, are living in violation of the laws that He has established. And in love and pity to the race, He causes the light to shine upon health reform. He publishes His law and the penalty that will follow the transgression of it, that all may learn and be careful to live in harmony with natural law. He proclaims His law so distinctly and makes it so prominent that it is like a city set on a hill. All accountable beings can understand it if they will. Idiots will not be responsible. To make plain natural law, and urge the obedience of it, is the work that accompanies the third angel's message to prepare a people for the coming of the Lord. 362 {CCh 214.3}

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