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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Daryl]
#134649
06/22/11 12:19 AM
06/22/11 12:19 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I don't believe skin colors are what Mrs. White refers to per se. I think that is a side issue. If Adam were white and Eve were black (or vice versa), then all skin colors would be represented in the original Creation. However, I do not believe that is the way the colors came about. If both Adam and Eve were white, we'd have a hard time getting black out of the genetics. If they were both black, we'd have a hard time getting white. If they were both red, it would be hard to come out with either white or black...except through some form of mutation. I believe the "mutation" was not a chance of evolution. It was a divine command. God put a mark on Cain. That "mark" was a visible one. We know that much. It was meant to cause anyone finding him to have reason for pause before thinking to exact vengeance upon him. If his color were entirely different from others, that would definitely have accomplished this. I've been in villages where no foreigner had ever entered. The people stared. It is natural to stare when you see something very strange or different for the first time. The "amalgamation" of which Mrs. White speaks seems to have had at least two aspects. - Intermarriage of God's people with the worldlings, as is spoken of in Genesis 6
- Some form of bestiality which occurred after the flood
As many of the worldlings were of the "race of Cain," they would have resembled his appearance--whichever color that was. We seem to get a clue, though, following the Flood, when Noah curses Ham's son Cainan. "A servant of servants shall he be." He was to become the servant of both Japheth and Shem. The fact that his name is nearly the same as that of Cain implies a resemblance. Throughout history, the black people have suffered under the curse of slavery. It is a sad legacy. Biblical curses are nothing to scoff at! (Ask the Jews, who called a curse upon themselves at the crucifixion.) Every species of animals which God had created was preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood, there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {1SP 78.2} The above statement speaks of "certain races of men." That logically excludes other, unspecified, races of men. This means that the effects of amalgamation are not universal among men. Personally, I have long felt that she is not speaking about black people. She is speaking about "certain races," which may be a subset of either white or black peoples. The kind of folk that come to my mind as possibilities are more in line with, say, pygmies, dwarfs, druids, bush people, or any "race" of mankind where a greater deviation from the standard form might be seen. And yes, we are all human. But everyone knows that not all humans are identical, and the word "race" is frequently used to help us identify the various ethnic groups among us. (Ellen White is not saying, nor am I, that any human group is not a part of the "human" species.) Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#134654
06/22/11 02:39 PM
06/22/11 02:39 PM
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If they were both black, we'd have a hard time getting white. Error. Very easy. Disable the genes. Green, do you know what "segregation" means regarding F2+ generations? You don't get something from nothing (contrary to what evolutionists would tell you), but it's fairly easy to get nothing from something. Adam and Eve were everything and everything after them are a reduced subset.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: kland]
#134657
06/22/11 03:27 PM
06/22/11 03:27 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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The Orient
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If they were both black, we'd have a hard time getting white. Error. Very easy. Disable the genes. Green, do you know what "segregation" means regarding F2+ generations? You don't get something from nothing (contrary to what evolutionists would tell you), but it's fairly easy to get nothing from something. Adam and Eve were everything and everything after them are a reduced subset. Kland, It appears that you are referring to albinism. Two points: 1) Albinism is an individual fluke of gene expression. I do not believe that it has ever become a widespread phenomenon in a species in which over half of the population is similarly affected. 2) Albinism, the lack of color/pigment, tends to look much, much different than what we humans typically think of as "white." In fact, those of us who are "white" are not albinos (usually), but pigmented. That pigmentation does not come from a "lack" of color. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#134685
06/24/11 05:39 PM
06/24/11 05:39 PM
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I believe albinism is more than just color genes.
I had in mind mechanisms such as in white flowers. I wouldn't call them albinos.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#134735
06/25/11 10:44 PM
06/25/11 10:44 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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Yeah, some people misread her statements and conclude men and monkeys were amalgamated resulting in Negros. But obviously her statements mean animals were amalgamated with animals and humans were amalgamated with humans resulting in variations within genera and species. Mike, Unfortunately, your assumptions about the "obvious" answer are not so obvious to me. First of all, if amalgamation is what produced the heretofore-unknown species and/or genera, then it follows that beforehand such species were unknown. That is a given. So, let's follow the full logic, now, as I see it. Mike's Hypothesis: Given: Mankind was originally composed of a single species. Given: Amalgamation involves acts of breeding and/or marrying. Given: Amalgamation caused the racial-speciation of mankind. Given: The amalgamation of mankind did not involve animals. Given: Amalgamation was a sin. Therefore, it follows that it was a sin for mankind to marry/breed within his own species. Conclusion: Mike's hypothesis fails on the Biblical point of "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth"! Blessings, Green Cochoa. I like how you organized your points. Nicely done. However, as I'm sure you suspect, I do not believe the different races of mankind represent different species. Yellow, black, brown, red, and white it doesn't matter - we are all the same species. Color variations within the human species was, most likely, a genetic variant that existed from the beginning. That is, A&E were created that way with the ability to produce the subtle differences that exist today. The same thing, no doubt, is true of the subtle differences reflected within the same and different races. For example, the differences in eye shape and color, nose size and shapes, hair color and type, ear size and shapes, etc. All of these variations, differences existed within the DNA code of A&E and manifested themselves, perhaps randomly, as the human family grew. As such, they do not reflect sin or a curse. The pygmies you mentioned are probably the result of incest and/or interbreeding and not the result of scientists tampering with human and animal DNA.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: kland]
#134751
06/26/11 01:37 AM
06/26/11 01:37 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I believe albinism is more than just color genes.
I had in mind mechanisms such as in white flowers. I wouldn't call them albinos.
Plant genetics is quite different from human genetics. Things like trisomy-13 would not even be an issue in plants. You can double the chromosomes in a plant (e.g. by an improper meiosis of the gametes), with both sets of the chromosomes being exactly identical--only now, instead of having, say, 22 chromosomes, having 44--and now have a new plant species with its own set of characteristics and required living conditions, in spite of not having any new or different genes. It is called polyploidy, and if it doesn't cause a miscarriage should it occur in a human (the most common outcome), the baby will live only a few days after birth. In plants, on the other hand, it leads to a new plant species. Suffice it to say, plants and animals frequently cannot be directly compared in terms of genetics. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Mountain Man]
#134752
06/26/11 01:41 AM
06/26/11 01:41 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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The Orient
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I like how you organized your points. Nicely done. However, as I'm sure you suspect, I do not believe the different races of mankind represent different species. Yellow, black, brown, red, and white it doesn't matter - we are all the same species. Color variations within the human species was, most likely, a genetic variant that existed from the beginning. That is, A&E were created that way with the ability to produce the subtle differences that exist today. The same thing, no doubt, is true of the subtle differences reflected within the same and different races. For example, the differences in eye shape and color, nose size and shapes, hair color and type, ear size and shapes, etc. All of these variations, differences existed within the DNA code of A&E and manifested themselves, perhaps randomly, as the human family grew. As such, they do not reflect sin or a curse. The pygmies you mentioned are probably the result of incest and/or interbreeding and not the result of scientists tampering with human and animal DNA. Mike, I know you don't believe in multiple species of humans. I don't either. Nor did Mrs. White. But Mrs. White refers to "amalgamation" as having produced "confused species" in animals (which obviously cannot happen by intrabreeding within the same species, but would only have happened by interbreeding between different species), and she says "amalgamation" also resulted in different "races" of men. What, then, was "amalgamation?" Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#134778
06/27/11 02:29 PM
06/27/11 02:29 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Obviously the amalgamation between races occurred naturally (as opposed to being forced to occur unnaturally in a lab).
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Mountain Man]
#134785
06/27/11 04:02 PM
06/27/11 04:02 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Obviously the amalgamation between races occurred naturally (as opposed to being forced to occur unnaturally in a lab). And where did those races come from, in order to have "amalgamation" if the races themselves were the result of amalgamation? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#134817
06/28/11 04:06 PM
06/28/11 04:06 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
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I believe albinism is more than just color genes.
I had in mind mechanisms such as in white flowers. I wouldn't call them albinos.
Plant genetics is quite different from human genetics. Things like trisomy-13 would not even be an issue in plants. You can double the chromosomes in a plant (e.g. by an improper meiosis of the gametes), with both sets of the chromosomes being exactly identical--only now, instead of having, say, 22 chromosomes, having 44--and now have a new plant species with its own set of characteristics and required living conditions, in spite of not having any new or different genes. It is called polyploidy, and if it doesn't cause a miscarriage should it occur in a human (the most common outcome), the baby will live only a few days after birth. In plants, on the other hand, it leads to a new plant species. Suffice it to say, plants and animals frequently cannot be directly compared in terms of genetics. Green, I wasn't talking of polyploidy nor species. I was talking of a simple and classic genetics.
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