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Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: Elle] #135822
08/31/11 01:04 AM
08/31/11 01:04 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
asygo,

Is this the one you are referring to?
Quote:
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Elle
[quote=Daryl F][b]Are you saying that everybody will be saved and that nobody will be lost?

Daryl, I have said and implied this many times in other threads. Via my personal studies this past 1.5 year this is what I understand.

But Jesus said few people find the way to life, while many find the way to destruction. Sorry if this been addressed elsewhere, but it doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know what text you are referring to. Could you give me the text please. [/quote]


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: Daryl] #135879
09/03/11 06:53 AM
09/03/11 06:53 AM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Tx Daryl, it does appear to be the one. This is getting a little off topic again. This topic is about finding the Hell doctrine in the Law of Moses. So I will briefly answer below and link this back to this discussion.

This type of mis-understanding(Mat 7 and other text refering to destruction/death in the plan of salvation) stems basically from our ignorance of the Feasts which clearly depicts the process by which men needs to go through to be saved.

The chosen ones are to Bear Good Fruits
What Jesus said in Mat 7:13,14,21-23 is also mentioned by Luke 13:22-30 in more detail. Here Jesus is referring to the tribe of Judah in his time that was entrusted to be the “chosen ones”. When God choose someone, there is a huge responsibility that comes with it. And that is to produce good fruit and spread these fruits in the whole world(Is 27:2-6). Judah has failed as Israel had failed previously. Their own fruits were wild and they continued to act like wild asses in their ways of dealing with the foreigners by oppressing them because they weren’t genealogically Israelites. And even by dealing between each others, they did not dealt righteously according to the manner depicted in the Laws of Moses but manipulated the law of God by twisting it or by cherry picking parts to benefit their carnal interest. When time came for God to check His vineyard production(Is 5 and Mat 21) that he had entrusted to the vine-growers (Judea-the chosen ones)and they refused to return the owner(God) His share of the crops, and He finds no good fruits but only wild ones, then He will take away their privileges, pull them off his vineyard(Jerusalem) and cast them outside of the city. And give the vineyard to someone else(Mat 21:43).

Thrust out Vs. Destroyed
This is basically what Jesus is talking about in these passages. In Luke 13:28-30, it specifies that these people are thrust out (of the holy city), and v.30 add “ behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.” Luke 13 gives dimension of what destroys means. It doesn’t imply that they are “destroy” by the way we define that word meaning they will be annihilated in a literal fire. Jesus is talking about they will lose their privileges to be the “firstfruits” which are the overcomers, the 144K, the saints that will rule with Jesus(Rev 20:6). The firstfruits are the first ones to become “the manifested sons of God” (Rom 8:19) by which God’s full measure of His Glory will dwell in their temple body and will manifest the fruits of the Spirit. These people are the ones that will accomplish to bring forth more fruits until the whole earth will be filled with the glory of God(Is 27:2-6, Dn 2:35). This is the job of the “chosen ones” -- God’s vine-growers on earth.

Destruction
Of course these men(tribe of Judah in Jesus time and the denominations today not producing the fruits) needs to be destroyed. Destruction is another big word that is read/interpretated with the world or the carnal man concept and ways of doing things. But we are not seekers of this world’s ways and definitions and need to look in scriptures to pull out God’s ways and definitions within God’s plan of salvation defined in the Laws of Moses.

We ALL need to be destroyed. The “ old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed” Rom 6:6. The old man needs to be destroyed, so we can resurrect into a new creation in Christ. This is the process. Destruction/death is part of the process to bring forth a new creature.

Jesus corrected the disciples mis-understanding by making clear His work when he said “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them].” Luk 9:56 Also in 1Jo 3:8 John said “ the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” The work of destruction is Christ’s work who comes to destroy any work that is not His which will not destroy man but save him through fire.(1Cor 3:15 see below) This work of destruction is done by FIRE which purifies the metal and burns out the dross(impurities—the works of man or the devil). Some are baptized by FIRE before His second coming, and the others are baptized in the lake of FIRE after the second resurrection. All will be baptized by FIRE which is how Jesus’ baptizes us(Mat 3:11, Luk 3:16).

Mal 3:2 “ But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap”.

1Co 3:15 “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Soap does not kill anyone, it cleans us. Also will Jesus's fire will not kill anyone, it will purify us.


Blessings
Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: Elle] #135883
09/03/11 10:40 AM
09/03/11 10:40 AM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
Elle,

Is what you posted below your own work or that of others?

Originally Posted By: Elle
Tx Daryl, it does appear to be the one. This is getting a little off topic again. This topic is about finding the Hell doctrine in the Law of Moses. So I will briefly answer below and link this back to this discussion.

This type of mis-understanding(Mat 7 and other text refering to destruction/death in the plan of salvation) stems basically from our ignorance of the Feasts which clearly depicts the process by which men needs to go through to be saved.

The chosen ones are to Bear Good Fruits
What Jesus said in Mat 7:13,14,21-23 is also mentioned by Luke 13:22-30 in more detail. Here Jesus is referring to the tribe of Judah in his time that was entrusted to be the “chosen ones”. When God choose someone, there is a huge responsibility that comes with it. And that is to produce good fruit and spread these fruits in the whole world(Is 27:2-6). Judah has failed as Israel had failed previously. Their own fruits were wild and they continued to act like wild asses in their ways of dealing with the foreigners by oppressing them because they weren’t genealogically Israelites. And even by dealing between each others, they did not dealt righteously according to the manner depicted in the Laws of Moses but manipulated the law of God by twisting it or by cherry picking parts to benefit their carnal interest. When time came for God to check His vineyard production(Is 5 and Mat 21) that he had entrusted to the vine-growers (Judea-the chosen ones)and they refused to return the owner(God) His share of the crops, and He finds no good fruits but only wild ones, then He will take away their privileges, pull them off his vineyard(Jerusalem) and cast them outside of the city. And give the vineyard to someone else(Mat 21:43).

Thrust out Vs. Destroyed
This is basically what Jesus is talking about in these passages. In Luke 13:28-30, it specifies that these people are thrust out (of the holy city), and v.30 add “ behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.” Luke 13 gives dimension of what destroys means. It doesn’t imply that they are “destroy” by the way we define that word meaning they will be annihilated in a literal fire. Jesus is talking about they will lose their privileges to be the “firstfruits” which are the overcomers, the 144K, the saints that will rule with Jesus(Rev 20:6). The firstfruits are the first ones to become “the manifested sons of God” (Rom 8:19) by which God’s full measure of His Glory will dwell in their temple body and will manifest the fruits of the Spirit. These people are the ones that will accomplish to bring forth more fruits until the whole earth will be filled with the glory of God(Is 27:2-6, Dn 2:35). This is the job of the “chosen ones” -- God’s vine-growers on earth.

Destruction
Of course these men(tribe of Judah in Jesus time and the denominations today not producing the fruits) needs to be destroyed. Destruction is another big word that is read/interpretated with the world or the carnal man concept and ways of doing things. But we are not seekers of this world’s ways and definitions and need to look in scriptures to pull out God’s ways and definitions within God’s plan of salvation defined in the Laws of Moses.

We ALL need to be destroyed. The “ old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed” Rom 6:6. The old man needs to be destroyed, so we can resurrect into a new creation in Christ. This is the process. Destruction/death is part of the process to bring forth a new creature.

Jesus corrected the disciples mis-understanding by making clear His work when he said “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them].” Luk 9:56 Also in 1Jo 3:8 John said “ the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” The work of destruction is Christ’s work who comes to destroy any work that is not His which will not destroy man but save him through fire.(1Cor 3:15 see below) This work of destruction is done by FIRE which purifies the metal and burns out the dross(impurities—the works of man or the devil). Some are baptized by FIRE before His second coming, and the others are baptized in the lake of FIRE after the second resurrection. All will be baptized by FIRE which is how Jesus’ baptizes us(Mat 3:11, Luk 3:16).

Mal 3:2 “ But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap”.

1Co 3:15 “ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Soap does not kill anyone, it cleans us. Also will Jesus's fire will not kill anyone, it will purify us.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: Daryl] #135889
09/03/11 02:13 PM
09/03/11 02:13 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Elle, Is what you posted below your own work or that of others?

Daryl, my reply to Arnold's Mat 7 are my own words stemming from my own study this week and from personal studies already done in the pass. I thought it was obvious with my French accident smile . I need to give the credit to Luk 9 by which shed lots of light of what Mat 7 is about.

Believe me there's many things I do not know and haven't studied for I just started to study(9 Month ago) according to the Law of Moses. At first my studies didn't have the strong foundation that the Law of Moses provides. The Lord already had me started to study the Laws 18 months ago but not in a manner to test all Doctrines, but to understand better the sanctuary language of Daniel/Revelation.

It's only when I was reading Myron's Robertson(an SDA) posts at Adventist Online http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=36zmrf8lp346f that I realized what I was missing out from not knowing the laws of Moses. So since then I started studying all subject via the Laws.

Myron did make public another guy who studies from the Law angle which I do read his website at time. His name is Dr. Stephen Jones( http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/weblog/WebCategory.cfm?CID=13 ) who is non-denominationalist. I am quite skeptical about reading other people stuff and was very reluctant to do so for it is against my 1Jo 2:27 principle.

When I do read Stephen studies(or anyone else) I do verify the integrity of everything I read with the Law according to the Law of False/True Prophets in Deut 13 & 18.

At the beginning at times I did find my definition of words were different from Myron’s. For example, I believed that the spiritual meaning of the “fat” in the sacrificial services was sin. (see discussion here ) Myron disagreed and said it meant “the best” or God’s blessings. My definition was based from what I had learned from others in the past and not really biblically based. Once I did my personal study of the Hebrew word “fat”, I saw that Myron was right and I was wrong. So that shook my whole perspective of the sacrificial service because it was based on my definition and not on God’s definition describe in the Bible.

From all that I have read from discussing with Myron and I have checked all his references and checked many Hebrew definition and all.. Up to now, there’s very few minor things that I do not agree with Myron or Dr. Jones. In general, I found myself agreeing with most because there foundation is on the rock and its pretty solid.


Blessings
Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: Elle] #135986
09/08/11 09:38 PM
09/08/11 09:38 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Interesting - Stephen Jones does not agree with SDA Pioneers on the 70 week prophesy - he stating that it started in 458BC, Christ was born in 2BC and was crucified in AD33 at the END of the 70 weeks. This does have significant implications for SDA interpretation of prophesy. That said, I find him more refreshing to read than some of the dispensationalists I've read recently.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: APL] #135988
09/08/11 11:27 PM
09/08/11 11:27 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
How do you connect your post to this thread?
Originally Posted By: APL
Interesting - Stephen Jones does not agree with SDA Pioneers on the 70 week prophesy - he stating that it started in 458BC, Christ was born in 2BC and was crucified in AD33 at the END of the 70 weeks. This does have significant implications for SDA interpretation of prophesy. That said, I find him more refreshing to read than some of the dispensationalists I've read recently.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: APL] #135990
09/09/11 12:53 AM
09/09/11 12:53 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Interesting - Stephen Jones does not agree with SDA Pioneers on the 70 week prophesy - he stating that it started in 458BC, Christ was born in 2BC and was crucified in AD33 at the END of the 70 weeks.

This is an interesting topic. Feel free to create a new thread about it.

Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: Daryl] #135992
09/09/11 02:12 AM
09/09/11 02:12 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
How do you connect your post to this thread?
Originally Posted By: APL
Interesting - Stephen Jones does not agree with SDA Pioneers on the 70 week prophesy - he stating that it started in 458BC, Christ was born in 2BC and was crucified in AD33 at the END of the 70 weeks. This does have significant implications for SDA interpretation of prophesy. That said, I find him more refreshing to read than some of the dispensationalists I've read recently.


Well - read the comment just above mine, where it is said this about Stephen Jones: "Up to now, there’s very few minor things that I do not agree with Myron or Dr. Jones. In general, I found myself agreeing with most because there foundation is on the rock and its pretty solid." That is how this comment fits with the thread.

I'm pointing out that a source used as being "pretty solid" is off on this foundational point from SDA thought, and in fact, in his writing dismisses groups that push for a AD31 crucifixion date as being denominational.

It is true, Jones sees hell as something that will pass away, and in this respect aligns with SDAs.

...-.-


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: Rosangela] #136000
09/10/11 02:45 AM
09/10/11 02:45 AM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Rosangela, I understand that you might don't want to answer my questions below. It would be more easy on me if you(or anyone else) would answer according to scriptures than me preparing a post with it. But if no one will, then I will find time hopefully by next week.

Quote:
E : a) Why does some law's verdict a define restitution, whereas some others laws the verdict is stoning to death? Isn’t only breaking one little law, the same as breaking all of them? James 2:10

R: I believe the main factor here is motivation - the death penalty was for willful, premeditated sins.

Not so according to scripture. Many has done premeditated sins and the penalty was not death. David is one big example where he both killed and committed adultery and the Lord did not ask that he be killed even though that was the penalty of it according to the law. If we believe that Yah is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, we need to understand why did David didn’t die and why did those found in adultery in the time of Moses where stoned. We know the Father is Just and there must be something that we are missing.

Quote:
E: b)The letter of the law says “stoning” to death which is important for us to know. However, we need to go beyond the literal surface reading and seek to also know the spirit of the law which is God’s intent and perspective.

R: The way the sinner died does not matter. Not always was stoning used. Sometimes God ordered the sword to be used (Ex 32:27) - not to mention that sometimes God Himself did the killing (like in the case of Nadab and Abihu).

The way the sinner died is very important and quite significant for the Law is the TYPE. All manners and symbols in the Pentateuch are important.

Ok those two incidence weren’t the norm but does reveal information.
c) the sword – what does the sword represent in scripture? That’s an easy one.
a) And again, what does the fire represent?
Quote:
E: Concerning Mat 25:41 to properly understand what Jesus is talking about there’s two words that needs to be biblically define :
a) fire—could be the same as in the lake of fire and
b) everlasting (eonian in NT and Olam in OT).

R: What Jesus is talking about is that some men, in the same way as the devil and his angels, won't be saved.

Before, jumping into conclusions, could you answer question a) and b)?


Blessings
Re: Is the Hell Doctrine depicted in the TYPE (Laws of Moses)? [Re: Elle] #136039
09/11/11 09:47 PM
09/11/11 09:47 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Not so according to scripture. Many has done premeditated sins and the penalty was not death. David is one big example where he both killed and committed adultery and the Lord did not ask that he be killed even though that was the penalty of it according to the law. If we believe that Yah is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, we need to understand why did David didn’t die and why did those found in adultery in the time of Moses where stoned. We know the Father is Just and there must be something that we are missing.

The death penalty applied primarily to those who had witnessed the visible manifestation of God's glory in the Sinai, to those who had the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud leading them, but, even so, insisted in transgressing the commandments God Himself had spoken to them - this meant that the person despised God and His will and showed the person's defiant atittude toward God.
As time passed and the visible signs of God's presence were reduced, this defiant attitude might not characterize all sins.
However, the fact is that David did not die, but the Lord told him: "You shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die."

Quote:
The way the sinner died is very important and quite significant for the Law is the TYPE. All manners and symbols in the Pentateuch are important.

Ok those two incidence weren’t the norm but does reveal information.
c) the sword – what does the sword represent in scripture? That’s an easy one.
a) And again, what does the fire represent?

Elle, there were other means through which people were punished - the ground which swallowed them up (Korah, Dathan, and Abiram), plagues (Num. 16, Num. 25), etc.

Quote:
Before, jumping into conclusions, could you answer question a) and b)?
a) fire—could be the same as in the lake of fire and
b) everlasting (eonian in NT and Olam in OT).

a) Sure, the same fire as in the lake of fire, and the same fire that will kill Satan and his angels. Do you also think Satan and his angels will be saved?
b) a term with an elastic duration.

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