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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: kland]
#135557
08/05/11 08:18 PM
08/05/11 08:18 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Kland,
If the original color was a mix of colors, this means that the four skin colors in existence today (not just the white color) result from a loss of information. Is this what you are saying?
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Rosangela]
#135631
08/09/11 03:14 PM
08/09/11 03:14 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Midland
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No.
I am not saying there are only four skin colors in existence today.
I am not saying that all skin colors necessarily involve loss of information.
I'm saying that white skin color, if it is anything at all like such genetics in plants and other animals, involves a loss of information.
If you do not understand classical Mendelian genetics, with multiple genes or alleles being especially relevant here, and along with what I perceive some resistance to the concept, we really do not have the same basis and would require extensive and tedious interactions. But if you can explain agouti mouse color, perhaps we can discuss this more.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: kland]
#135636
08/09/11 07:48 PM
08/09/11 07:48 PM
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You claim to be saying the same thing NJK was saying, but NJK wasn't saying anything about loss of information. What he was saying was: My, albeit, hypothesis, is that God could have expressedly wired man to be able to recode the skin cells in order to deal with various sunlight exposure, depending on where exactly one lives, including elsewhere in this universe. So the body having to constantly deal with extreme sunlight exposure, resulting in it darkening the skin color, could then be encode for that color in the genes and indeed genetically passed on through the gamete, as any other gene information. And that would occur at the sub-epigenetic level. Now, about skin color (not race), I see four basic colors in existence today (it could be 3 if red is considered a variation of yellow), with the others being a result of the mix between the main types. What I'm saying is that in Adam the potential combination of genes was enormous, and all colors are a result of selection from the existing gene pool. What you are saying is that the original color was a mix of colors, and that white is a loss of information. But, if none of the colors in existence today is the original color, I fail to see how white involves a loss of information, while the other colors don't (although all of them would lack elements which were present in the original color).
Last edited by Rosangela; 08/09/11 11:44 PM. Reason: correction of information
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: NJK Project]
#135653
08/11/11 12:24 PM
08/11/11 12:24 PM
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So peoples who went to a certain area over their ca. 438 years for that first generation (cf. Gen 11:12), were not only affected by the constant lopsided climate, but were now, if this was not always possible, genetically susceptible to be, as a protective measure, affected by this exposure to the sun.
In reading (or re-interpreting) is comments, I now see he may be referring to an individual rather than a population. While epistatic methylation may very well be part of the equation, it was not what I was talking about.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: kland]
#136439
10/04/11 02:03 PM
10/04/11 02:03 PM
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If you cross a black, with a white and then cross them with an oriental, and then with Eskimos and Indians, what color would you get? Then, you take those amalgamated peoples and let them segregate out.
If you can take the different races, mix them together, then let them separate out, why couldn't all races be combined at the beginning?
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: kland]
#136685
10/10/11 08:52 PM
10/10/11 08:52 PM
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What does this have to do with EGW and the almalgamtion of man and beast? If you cross a black, with a white and then cross them with an oriental, and then with Eskimos and Indians, what color would you get? Then, you take those amalgamated peoples and let them segregate out.
If you can take the different races, mix them together, then let them separate out, why couldn't all races be combined at the beginning?
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Daryl]
#136714
10/11/11 12:09 PM
10/11/11 12:09 PM
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The Orient
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What does this have to do with EGW and the almalgamtion of man and beast? If you cross a black, with a white and then cross them with an oriental, and then with Eskimos and Indians, what color would you get? Then, you take those amalgamated peoples and let them segregate out.
If you can take the different races, mix them together, then let them separate out, why couldn't all races be combined at the beginning? Probably not as much as some might wish, Daryl. The argument kland is presenting is one which seems to make sense in a sort of reverse-logic way (working back from the end to the beginning), but the actual argument here is probably a logical fallacy. One simply cannot demonstrate lineage based on an experiment of this sort. The fallacy here might be one of "Loaded Question." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_questionHere's how it seems to break down: P: If you cross a black, with a white and then cross them with an oriental, and then with Eskimos and Indians, what color would you get? P: "Amalgamated" people allowed to breed freely will produce different races. Q: All races were combined at the beginning. The first premise above is actually stating an unproven and disputable fact in the form of an unanswered question. The second premise uses the term "amalgamated" without its having been clearly defined by the group (another fallacy, actually). The conclusion, of course, cannot be logical on the basis of such premises. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#136716
10/11/11 02:29 PM
10/11/11 02:29 PM
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Here's how it seems to break down:
P: If you cross a black, with a white and then cross them with an oriental, and then with Eskimos and Indians, what color would you get? P: "Amalgamated" people allowed to breed freely will produce different races. Q: All races were combined at the beginning.
The first premise above is actually stating an unproven and disputable fact in the form of an unanswered question. The second premise uses the term "amalgamated" without its having been clearly defined by the group (another fallacy, actually). The conclusion, of course, cannot be logical on the basis of such premises.
You're partially right, partially wrong. It would be true if I was addressing it to all. However, I was only addressing it to those who had determined what amalgamated was and that implied it was impossible for all the races to come from one couple. You might say I was arguing against the fallacy of another. I had disputed this previously. I'm not sure I would imply nor require to breed "freely". Freely, would seem to perpetuate some people's definition of "amalgamated" or better, mixed race. However, there are choices involved with people in breeding which aren't involved with plants and animals. It may result in much more speedier separations than in plants and animals. I'm reminded of the large scale slaughters in the middle east by subgroups of people who look very similar to me. As far as the first premise, I was going from observations. Have you not seen the offspring of a black and white or any other mixed race offspring. They look very mixed to me. It is not unprovable. One can merely do research on family lines to see what has actually occurred, or one could actually do a controlled breeding experiment. Very testable as to what the outcome would be. If you start at one state, and the result is a variety of races, mix them together to a mixed race, and if they should separate out, wouldn't that allow for the possibility that original state was a mixed race and had separated out? It can't be direct proof of what actually happened, because we can't go back there, but it sure is more inductive, supporting evidence, or whatever you want to call it, more so than what evolutionists go on as "science". The only issue I see, regards as to whether it can be separated out. I'm only speculating as to what the result would be from segregations of plant and animal experiments, that God said all humans came from one pair, that there are currently multiple races in the world, that crossing them creates a mixture, so therefore, there would be a possibility they could separate out. I would agree, that they would not likely separate out in the exact races they started with as there are different environmental conditions, different cultural conditions, and it may be due to random factors.
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: kland]
#136966
10/21/11 05:42 PM
10/21/11 05:42 PM
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"Here's how it seems to break down:
P: If you cross a black, with a white and then cross them with an oriental, and then with Eskimos and Indians, what color would you get?"
I'd think you would end up with a Tiger Woods! ; D
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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast
[Re: crater]
#136972
10/22/11 12:49 AM
10/22/11 12:49 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
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Posts: 6,663
Canada
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Well, that's good for a laugh, but I don't think that's what EGW was talking about when she wrote: "But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before him." 1SP69 This is talking about altering God's creation in abnormal ways. I think someone brought forth the concept of genetic engineering. Personally I'm convinced that's what was going on. I don't for a minute believe they were some kind of backward primitive race. They had minds that would make people today look mentally challenged beside them. They had life spans of hundreds of years to experiment and learn. More was lost in the Flood, in many ways, than men today know. Looking upon the world, God saw that the intellect He had given man was perverted, that the imagination of his heart was evil and that continually. God had given these men knowledge. He had given them valuable ideas, that they might carry out His plan. But the Lord saw that those whom He designed should possess wisdom, tact, and judgment, were using every quality of the mind to glorify self. By the waters of the Flood, He blotted this long-lived race from the earth, and with them perished the knowledge they had used only for evil. When the earth was repeopled, the Lord trusted His wisdom more sparingly to men, giving them only the ability they would need in carrying out His great plan (Letter 175, 1896). {1BC 1089.2}
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