Are you suggesting they are incapable of "experiencing it"? That is, Jesus can only impute it because they cannot in reality experience it?


Why are you hesitant to call it "sinful"?


Ellen wrote:


What kind of sins do you think are "avoidable"? And, once they are avoided, is the fruit tainted with sin? Can't win for losing, right. That is, if we fail to avoid avoidable sins we are guilty of sin; nevertheless, if we succeed . . . well, we're still guilty of sinning.


Are you sure the sacrifices perfumed sin? Seems to me the blood and righteousness of Jesus substitutes righteousness for sin. In other words, His blood pays the penalty for our sins, satisfies the loving demands of law and justice, so that our sins no longer exist. The byproduct of atonement is righteousness - not sin. Thus, He perfumes "righteousness and true holiness" - not sin. Ellen wrote:


1. Their minds and hearts are filled with the pure, unselfish, sanctified love that Christ revealed.

2. Their purposes, thoughts, words, and actions are in harmony with the will of God expressed in the commandments of His law.

3. There is nothing in the heart of the man who abides in Christ that is at war with any precept of God's law.

4. They experience righteousness that meets the claims of the law, and find acceptance with the Father.

5. Jesus restore the repenting soul to favor with God by giving him grace to keep the law of the Most High.

6. They reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.

Jesus so thoroughly restores them that their obedience and righteousness is in harmony with the law and is acceptable and pleasing to God. They experience sinlessness like Adam did before he sinned. You two seem to be saying, No, their righteousness is tainted with sin and unacceptable and displeasing to God.

In light of all the passages I posted above (see response to Arnold) I suspect she purposely avoided using the words "sin" or "sinful" when describing their "prayer and praise and confession . . . and sacrifices". Again, the passages I posted above make it clear their fruit satisfies the law perfectly. They make it clear the Father is totally pleased. The fact Jesus' fragrant perfume is also required does not mean it is because their fruit is sinful.

And what do the concepts of impurity and defilement mean?

I'm not sure EGW is speaking of this life here.

Mike, I understand you consider it completely impossible for you to unconsciously manifest a selfish attitude.

In context of the passage you posted it is clear she is not referring to known or unknown commission of sin. The defilement that happens as "righteousness and true holiness" pass through corrupt human channels is not the result of sinning. Remember, "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." (AH 127) Judgment is not based on the sinfulness of sinful flesh. Judgment is based on the quality of thoughts, words, and deeds prior to passing through corrupt human channels.


"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." While abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature they are pure and perfect and righteous like Jesus was. This applies to the thief on the cross as well as to John.


Certain sins of ignorance are possible while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature (i.e. keeping Sunday instead of the Sabbath day) - but selfish attitudes is not one of them. Ellen wrote:

In this passage, EGW seems to say the opposite, and (notice the similarity of terms) she even says that what defiles James and John's love "by the earthliness of its human channel" is their selfishness:

Jesus bears tenderly with them, not rebuking their selfishness in seeking preference above their brethren. He reads their hearts, He knows the depth of their attachment to Him. Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love. He will not rebuke, but deepen and purify. {DA 548.6}

It's strange that you quoted SC 29:2, because it contradicts your view. It's saying that Daniel had a sense of his selfishness. How do you interpret this?

Until we put on incorruption, we have corruption. Hence, the constant need for Christ's uncorrupted merits. The Bible and SOP are clear that the best we can offer are filthy rags, in need of cleansing.

Our righteousness (our works) are as filthy rags needing cleaning by the righteousness (works) of Christ.

Did you notice what she wrote about selfishness in the following passage: "All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart." You seem to think "all selfishness is expelled" in the radically transformed heart except for some aspects of selfishness. However, she wrote, "I write this to our people that they may see that it is not knowledge that they need, but new hearts, cleansed from all selfishness and covetousness." {SW 88.3} "When our hearts are emptied of all selfishness, and cleansed by the Spirit of Christ, we shall be vessels meet for the Master's use." {AUCR, August 1, 1902 par. 8} She also wrote:


Not everyone, unfortunately, experiences true, genuine rebirth or conversion. Not everyone expels all selfishness. Many are baptized before self is crucified and buried, before all selfishness is expelled. Ellen wrote: "But I was shown that there are but few who have the truth wrought into their very souls, who can bear the searching test of God. There are many who have taken hold of the truth, but the truth has not taken hold of them, to transform their hearts and cleanse them from all selfishness." {4T 194.1}

"But what is the reason of these doubts, this darkness and unbelief? I answer: These men and women are not right with God. They are not dealing honestly and truly with their own souls. They have neglected to cultivate personal piety. They have not separated themselves from all selfishness and from sin and sinners. They have failed to study the self-denying, self-sacrificing life of our Lord and have failed to imitate His example of purity, devotion, and self-sacrifice. {BLJ 18.4}

The Bible says believers who are abiding in Jesus "do not sin" and "cannot sin". They are as sinless as Adam was before he fell. "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} They overcome as Christ overcame. "When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience." {DA 668.3} "It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." {NL 28.1}

"In everything Christ sought first the kingdom of God and his righteousness; and that which he did he commands his followers to do. This example he gave to the human race that they might in his strength render to God the obedience he requires, and in the end present themselves perfect before his throne. He was one with the Father. His life was a fulfilling of the law, a continual obedience to God's commands." {RH, October 2, 1900 par. 14}

"The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}

How can you say the righteous results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are "filthy rags" when, according to Ellen, they are "the same obedience" Jesus rendered to God? "The obedience of Christ is not to be put aside as altogether different from the obedience He requires of us individually. Christ has shown us that it is possible for all humanity to obey the laws of God." {3SM 135.2}

"We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which He was particularly adapted, by His particular divine nature, for He stood before God as man's representative and tempted as man's substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. The work of Christ was to take from the claims of Satan his control of man, and He could do this only in the way that He came--a man, tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man." {3SM 139.3}

"The law of God, if written in the heart, will bring the mind and will into subjection to the obedience of Christ. {3T 201.2} "When man places himself under the control of God, the will becomes firm and strong to do right, the heart is cleansed from selfishness and filled with Christ-like love. The mind yields to the authority of the law of love, and every thought is brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. The powers, hitherto "members of unrighteousness," and "servants of sin," are consecrated to the service of the God of love. {AUCR, June 1, 1900 par. 10}

There is no indication Ellen taught the righteous results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are "filthy rags" or "tainted with sin" and "selfishness". On the contrary, she plainly says - "The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." {MH 180.5}