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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: asygo]
#137392
11/09/11 05:02 PM
11/09/11 05:02 PM
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M: Arnold and Rosangela, I am beginning to believe you two believe born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness".
A: They are capable, but only by receiving it from God. It is imputed righteousness and holiness. Are you suggesting they are incapable of "experiencing it"? That is, Jesus can only impute it because they cannot in reality experience it? M: You seem to believe the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature is sinful.
A: I don't know if I would call it sinful, but it surely needs to be covered by Christ's righteousness in order to be acceptable to God. Why are you hesitant to call it "sinful"? M: If so, how does it differ from other sins?
A: These sins are unavoidable, and are covered by Christ's blood if the sinner is making every effort to obey. Other sins are avoidable. Ellen wrote: The only definition of sin given in God's Word is transgression of the law. It is not excusable, and has no defense or justification. {PC 167.5}
There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. {DA 311.3} What kind of sins do you think are "avoidable"? And, once they are avoided, is the fruit tainted with sin? Can't win for losing, right. That is, if we fail to avoid avoidable sins we are guilty of sin; nevertheless, if we succeed . . . well, we're still guilty of sinning. M: And, where in the Bible does it say Jesus perfumes our sins?
A: The altar of incense, the morning and evening sacrifices. Are you sure the sacrifices perfumed sin? Seems to me the blood and righteousness of Jesus substitutes righteousness for sin. In other words, His blood pays the penalty for our sins, satisfies the loving demands of law and justice, so that our sins no longer exist. The byproduct of atonement is righteousness - not sin. Thus, He perfumes "righteousness and true holiness" - not sin. Ellen wrote: Unless their minds and hearts are filled with the pure, unselfish, sanctified love that Christ revealed, they will fall under Satan's power, and will do and say and write strange things, to deceive, if it were possible, the very elect. {RH, June 30, 1910 par. 14}
He that abideth in Christ is perfected in the love of God, and his purposes, thoughts, words, and actions are in harmony with the will of God expressed in the commandments of His law. There is nothing in the heart of the man who abides in Christ that is at war with any precept of God's law. {RC 59.4}
It was impossible for the sinner to keep the law of God, which was holy, just, and good; but this impossibility was removed by the impartation of the righteousness of Christ to the repenting, believing soul. The life and death of Christ in behalf of sinful man were for the purpose of restoring the sinner to God's favor, through imparting to him the righteousness that would meet the claims of the law, and find acceptance with the Father. . . Having suffered the full penalty for a guilty world, Jesus became the Mediator between God and man, to restore the repenting soul to favor with God by giving him grace to keep the law of the Most High. {ST, June 20, 1895 par. 8}
Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}
But every one who believes in Christ, every one who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, every one who resists temptations and in the midst of evil strives to copy the pattern given in the Christ-life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {8MR 99.2} 1. Their minds and hearts are filled with the pure, unselfish, sanctified love that Christ revealed. 2. Their purposes, thoughts, words, and actions are in harmony with the will of God expressed in the commandments of His law. 3. There is nothing in the heart of the man who abides in Christ that is at war with any precept of God's law. 4. They experience righteousness that meets the claims of the law, and find acceptance with the Father. 5. Jesus restore the repenting soul to favor with God by giving him grace to keep the law of the Most High. 6. They reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. Jesus so thoroughly restores them that their obedience and righteousness is in harmony with the law and is acceptable and pleasing to God. They experience sinlessness like Adam did before he sinned. You two seem to be saying, No, their righteousness is tainted with sin and unacceptable and displeasing to God.
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Rosangela]
#137393
11/09/11 05:12 PM
11/09/11 05:12 PM
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M: And, where in the Bible does it say Jesus perfumes our sins? R: Mike, the way you put it is hilarious. Jesus doesn't perfume our sins, He perfumes our good works, which, although prompted by His Spirit, are tainted by our sinful (selfish) nature. Another EGW quote says: The prayer and praise and confession of God's people ascend as sacrifices to the heavenly sanctuary. But they ascend not in spotless purity. Passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by the righteousness of the great High Priest, they are not acceptable by God. Christ gathers into the censer the prayers, the praise, and the sacrifices of his people, and with these he puts the merits of his spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the incense of Christ's propitiation, our prayers, wholly and entirely acceptable, rise before God, and gracious answers are returned. {YI, April 16, 1903 par. 12} If these aren't sinful, why does she use the word "defiled" and says they are impure? In light of all the passages I posted above (see response to Arnold) I suspect she purposely avoided using the words "sin" or "sinful" when describing their "prayer and praise and confession . . . and sacrifices". Again, the passages I posted above make it clear their fruit satisfies the law perfectly. They make it clear the Father is totally pleased. The fact Jesus' fragrant perfume is also required does not mean it is because their fruit is sinful.
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137397
11/09/11 05:30 PM
11/09/11 05:30 PM
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Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5} I'm not sure EGW is speaking of this life here. Mike, I understand you consider it completely impossible for you to unconsciously manifest a selfish attitude.
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Rosangela]
#137431
11/10/11 05:09 PM
11/10/11 05:09 PM
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And what do the concepts of impurity and defilement mean? In context of the passage you posted it is clear she is not referring to known or unknown commission of sin. The defilement that happens as "righteousness and true holiness" pass through corrupt human channels is not the result of sinning. Remember, "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." (AH 127) Judgment is not based on the sinfulness of sinful flesh. Judgment is based on the quality of thoughts, words, and deeds prior to passing through corrupt human channels. "Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5} I'm not sure EGW is speaking of this life here. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." While abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature they are pure and perfect and righteous like Jesus was. This applies to the thief on the cross as well as to John. Mike, I understand you consider it completely impossible for you to unconsciously manifest a selfish attitude. Certain sins of ignorance are possible while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature (i.e. keeping Sunday instead of the Sabbath day) - but selfish attitudes is not one of them. Ellen wrote: He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy. {SC 59.4}
The spirit of unselfish labor for others gives depth, stability, and Christlike loveliness to the character, and brings peace and happiness to its possessor. The aspirations are elevated. There is no room for sloth or selfishness. Those who thus exercise the Christian graces will grow and will become strong to work for God. They will have clear spiritual perceptions, a steady, growing faith, and an increased power in prayer. The Spirit of God, moving upon their spirit, calls forth the sacred harmonies of the soul in answer to the divine touch. Those who thus devote themselves to unselfish effort for the good of others are most surely working out their own salvation. {SC 80.2}
No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}
This is our great need today in every church in our land. For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Galatians 5:22, 23). "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace" (James 3:18). {YRP 289.3}
When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. {SC 29.2}
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137438
11/10/11 07:08 PM
11/10/11 07:08 PM
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Certain sins of ignorance are possible while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature (i.e. keeping Sunday instead of the Sabbath day) - but selfish attitudes is not one of them. In this passage, EGW seems to say the opposite, and (notice the similarity of terms) she even says that what defiles James and John's love "by the earthliness of its human channel" is their selfishness: Jesus bears tenderly with them, not rebuking their selfishness in seeking preference above their brethren. He reads their hearts, He knows the depth of their attachment to Him. Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love. He will not rebuke, but deepen and purify. {DA 548.6} It's strange that you quoted SC 29:2, because it contradicts your view. It's saying that Daniel had a sense of his selfishness. How do you interpret this?
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Mountain Man]
#137446
11/11/11 05:09 AM
11/11/11 05:09 AM
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M: Arnold and Rosangela, I am beginning to believe you two believe born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness".
A: They are capable, but only by receiving it from God. It is imputed righteousness and holiness. Are you suggesting they are incapable of "experiencing it"? That is, Jesus can only impute it because they cannot in reality experience it? Until we put on incorruption, we have corruption. Hence, the constant need for Christ's uncorrupted merits. The Bible and SOP are clear that the best we can offer are filthy rags, in need of cleansing.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: Rosangela]
#137459
11/11/11 04:48 PM
11/11/11 04:48 PM
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M: Certain sins of ignorance are possible while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature (i.e. keeping Sunday instead of the Sabbath day) - but selfish attitudes is not one of them.
R: In this passage, EGW seems to say the opposite, and (notice the similarity of terms) she even says that what defiles James and John's love "by the earthliness of its human channel" is their selfishness: "Jesus bears tenderly with them, not rebuking their selfishness in seeking preference above their brethren. He reads their hearts, He knows the depth of their attachment to Him. Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love. He will not rebuke, but deepen and purify. {DA 548.6}
It's strange that you quoted SC 29:2, because it contradicts your view. It's saying that Daniel had a sense of his selfishness. How do you interpret this? Did you notice what she wrote about selfishness in the following passage: "All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart." You seem to think "all selfishness is expelled" in the radically transformed heart except for some aspects of selfishness. However, she wrote, "I write this to our people that they may see that it is not knowledge that they need, but new hearts, cleansed from all selfishness and covetousness." {SW 88.3} "When our hearts are emptied of all selfishness, and cleansed by the Spirit of Christ, we shall be vessels meet for the Master's use." {AUCR, August 1, 1902 par. 8} She also wrote: Paul was convinced that if they could be brought to comprehend the amazing sacrifice made by the Majesty of heaven, all selfishness would be banished from their lives. {AA 333.1}
The contemplation of this love will cleanse the soul from all selfishness. {CH 222.2}
The servants of God are to be cleansed from all coldness, all selfishness. {CH 534.3}
It is to divest them of all selfishness, and bind them to God and to one another. {CS 16.2}
They realize that they are to live in this world the life that Jesus lived--a life free from all selfishness; and He enables them to bear witness for Him that draws souls to the cross of Calvary. {DG 81.4}
But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}
Are we emptying our hearts of all selfishness, and cleansing them, preparatory to receiving the latter rain from heaven? {HS 155.1}
Faith works by love, and purifies the soul from all selfishness. Thus the soul is perfected in love. {HP 110.2}
The Prince of heaven, the Commander of the heavenly hosts, stepped down from His high position, laid aside His royal robe and kingly crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, that He might become the divine Teacher of all classes of men, and live before human beings a life free from all selfishness and sin, setting them an example of what, through His grace, they may become. {OFC 252.3}
There can be no self-seeking in the life of him who follows the Saviour. The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. How can he live for self as he thinks of Christ hanging on the cross, giving His life for the life of the world? {OHC 287.4}
We are called upon to overcome in this life as Christ overcame. Heaven has provided us with abundant opportunities and privileges, so that we may overcome as Christ overcame, and sit down with Him on His throne. But in order to be overcomers, there must be in our lives no petting of fleshly inclinations. All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {RC 287.6}
Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. {SD 334.3}
Our souls must be purified from all selfishness; for God desires to use His people as representatives of the heavenly kingdom. {6T 190.3}
The Holy Spirit will take of the things of God and show them to him, and if he will receive them his character will be cleansed from all selfishness, and refined and purified for heaven. {TMK 106.2}
Now is the time for God's people to allow the Holy Spirit to make clean and thorough work, in order that all selfishness, all wrong, may be uprooted from their hearts. May the Lord help you and the whole church, is my prayer. {AU Gleaner, September 9, 1903 par. 7} Not everyone, unfortunately, experiences true, genuine rebirth or conversion. Not everyone expels all selfishness. Many are baptized before self is crucified and buried, before all selfishness is expelled. Ellen wrote: "But I was shown that there are but few who have the truth wrought into their very souls, who can bear the searching test of God. There are many who have taken hold of the truth, but the truth has not taken hold of them, to transform their hearts and cleanse them from all selfishness." {4T 194.1} "But what is the reason of these doubts, this darkness and unbelief? I answer: These men and women are not right with God. They are not dealing honestly and truly with their own souls. They have neglected to cultivate personal piety. They have not separated themselves from all selfishness and from sin and sinners. They have failed to study the self-denying, self-sacrificing life of our Lord and have failed to imitate His example of purity, devotion, and self-sacrifice. {BLJ 18.4}
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith
[Re: asygo]
#137460
11/11/11 05:20 PM
11/11/11 05:20 PM
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M: Arnold and Rosangela, I am beginning to believe you two believe born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness".
A: They are capable, but only by receiving it from God. It is imputed righteousness and holiness.
M: Are you suggesting they are incapable of "experiencing it"? That is, Jesus can only impute it because they cannot in reality experience it?
A: Until we put on incorruption, we have corruption. Hence, the constant need for Christ's uncorrupted merits. The Bible and SOP are clear that the best we can offer are filthy rags, in need of cleansing. The Bible says believers who are abiding in Jesus "do not sin" and "cannot sin". They are as sinless as Adam was before he fell. "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} They overcome as Christ overcame. "When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience." {DA 668.3} "It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained." {NL 28.1} "In everything Christ sought first the kingdom of God and his righteousness; and that which he did he commands his followers to do. This example he gave to the human race that they might in his strength render to God the obedience he requires, and in the end present themselves perfect before his throne. He was one with the Father. His life was a fulfilling of the law, a continual obedience to God's commands." {RH, October 2, 1900 par. 14} "The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3} How can you say the righteous results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are "filthy rags" when, according to Ellen, they are "the same obedience" Jesus rendered to God? "The obedience of Christ is not to be put aside as altogether different from the obedience He requires of us individually. Christ has shown us that it is possible for all humanity to obey the laws of God." {3SM 135.2} "We need not place the obedience of Christ by itself as something for which He was particularly adapted, by His particular divine nature, for He stood before God as man's representative and tempted as man's substitute and surety. If Christ had a special power which it is not the privilege of man to have, Satan would have made capital of this matter. The work of Christ was to take from the claims of Satan his control of man, and He could do this only in the way that He came--a man, tempted as a man, rendering the obedience of a man." {3SM 139.3} "The law of God, if written in the heart, will bring the mind and will into subjection to the obedience of Christ. {3T 201.2} "When man places himself under the control of God, the will becomes firm and strong to do right, the heart is cleansed from selfishness and filled with Christ-like love. The mind yields to the authority of the law of love, and every thought is brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. The powers, hitherto "members of unrighteousness," and "servants of sin," are consecrated to the service of the God of love. {AUCR, June 1, 1900 par. 10} There is no indication Ellen taught the righteous results of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature are "filthy rags" or "tainted with sin" and "selfishness". On the contrary, she plainly says - "The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." {MH 180.5}
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