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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13910
05/25/05 12:10 PM
05/25/05 12:10 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Do we only see need for salvation when we think of God, or of heaven?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13911
05/25/05 01:19 PM
05/25/05 01:19 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Or fear of being destroyed?
In other words, is our motive self-centered, preservationist and terror-oriented?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13912
05/25/05 02:13 PM
05/25/05 02:13 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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If there is no heaven, why am I going to serve a Being I will never see, hear or touch?
"If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied" (1 Cor. 15:19)
And if there is no punishment for sin, why to abstain from the pleasures of sin?
"What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.'" (v. 32)
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13913
05/26/05 03:30 AM
05/26/05 03:30 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosangela:
And if there is no punishment for sin, why to abstain from the pleasures of sin?
Becourse there is no true lasting pleasure in/of sin? Becourse that which sometimes is referenced to as pleasure of sin is numbing down thus requiering ever increasing doses to feel anything at all? Becourse in sin everyone will soner or later be forced to say with Salomon, "vanity, everything is vanity"?
/Thomas
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13914
05/25/05 10:14 PM
05/25/05 10:14 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Thomas,
Maybe you have a point, but who would believe you? The Christian faces opposition, sometimes persecution, he abstains from many things considered pleasurable, and all this for what?
I for one, if I was sure there was no heaven and no hell, would have put an end to my life long ago. Life makes no sense without a purpose.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13915
05/25/05 10:21 PM
05/25/05 10:21 PM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
R: If there is no heaven, why am I going to serve a Being I will never see, hear or touch?
Luk 22:25-27 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: … but I am among you as he that serveth.
The point of salvation is that we need help. We need a savior. He is serving us. Do we see that?
quote:
R: And if there is no punishment for sin, why to abstain from the pleasures of sin?
Do we only need salvation from the punishment for sin? Is sin so favorable or benign? Is the punishment the problem?
quote:
"If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied" (1 Cor. 15:19) "What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.'" (v. 32)
Why should there be death if it is only a punishment? If God were not there to punish us then what would be the problem?
Suppose we were to take God out of the picture, would we need salvation?
Suppose you were to live forever - in sin, would you see the need for salvation?
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13916
05/25/05 10:45 PM
05/25/05 10:45 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Rosangela
Exactly, your post answeres the question you raise. You say you know the purposelessness of a life in sin. Dont you think that everyone that isnt victimised by sin and killed will sooner or later face that insight that all is just dust in the air. Without God, what would the purpose be?
As to who would believe me? You need only throw a peak in the TV tableau to find evidence of people seeking something to kill their thoughts or their longing for a purpose.
/Thomas
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13917
05/26/05 01:41 PM
05/26/05 01:41 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John, Suppose God exists (so we don’t take God out of the picture) but there is no heaven and no hell; death is the end of everything. Even if I believed God loves me (which would be very difficult), what practical difference would this make? I can’t feel His tender touch; I can’t hear His voice saying He loves me; I can’t see His eyes looking at me with love. Separation is extremely painful. Love survives separation only if there is the hope of a reunion. If there was no such prospect, and, with a life so full of difficulties and death as the end of everything, then, like I said, what would be the use of serving God? quote:
Do we only need salvation from the punishment for sin?
Not only from the punishment, but it certainly is the most important part of it. The Bible says: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” “Our Savior Christ Jesus... abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”
quote:
Is sin so favorable or benign?
OK, take God out of the picture. The pleasures of sin are passing pleasures, but they do offer a certain measure of pleasure and, from a practical point of view, it is better to have a life with a little pleasure than with no pleasure at all.
quote:
Is the punishment the problem?
Even God, before the entrance of sin in the world, used the warning of punishment to try and prevent man from falling into sin. Sin is so deceiving in its nature that God felt it was necessary to inform His creatures about both rewards and punishments in order to help them to not choose sin. Do we want to be wiser than God?
quote:
Suppose you were to live forever - in sin, would you see the need for salvation?
Taking God out of the picture? Without the Holy Spirit to act in the heart? Probably not.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13918
05/26/05 01:55 PM
05/26/05 01:55 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Thomas,
I don’t know, but most of the people around us seem to be doing fine without God and don’t want Him to disturb their lives.
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Re: Salvation of the wicked !!!
#13919
05/26/05 08:23 PM
05/26/05 08:23 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
If there is no heaven, why am I going to serve a Being I will never see, hear or touch?
Enoch did. Before the vision recorded in Jude, Enoch did not know there was a heaven or resurrection, yet he followed God. Why do you suppose he did that?
Perhaps he served God because he loved Him, and perhaps we should do the same? Or better yet, perhaps it was a recognition on Enoch's part of God's love for him which motivated him to be God's friend.
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