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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158698
11/24/13 05:02 PM
11/24/13 05:02 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, how Jesus punishes sinners is plainly revealed in the Bible and the SOP. You advocate one of the ways, namely, the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. However, there are several other ways:

1. Jesus employs the forces of nature.
2. Jesus uses His enemies.
3. Jesus commands holy men and angels.

King David commanded his soldiers to withdraw and permit Uriah the Hittite to perish at the hands of his enemies. Similarly, Jesus commanded His angels to withdraw and permit King Saul to be defeated in battle. King Saul committed suicide. Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.
And I repeat again EGW's statement:
Originally Posted By: EGW
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158700
11/24/13 05:06 PM
11/24/13 05:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" The wrath of God fell upon Christ. This was the hiding of the Father's countenance. . {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 9}

For the fullest picture please compare the insight you posted above with the following description:

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

As you can read, there are things that will happen during the final judgment that clearly did not happen when Jesus drank the cup of trembling on the cross. In fact, there are startling dissimilarities. When Jesus paid our sin debt of death the earth was not enveloped in flames and molten lava. Nor did He writhe in flames tailored to punish. Even though He bore the sins of the world, Jesus died in six hours. Not so with sinners. "Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days." The most notable difference, however, is the fact Jesus was alive when He triumphantly cried out, "It is finished." He conquered the cup, the second death and lived to rise on the third day.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158701
11/24/13 05:09 PM
11/24/13 05:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
APL, how Jesus punishes sinners is plainly revealed in the Bible and the SOP. You advocate one of the ways, namely, the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. However, there are several other ways:

1. Jesus employs the forces of nature.
2. Jesus uses His enemies.
3. Jesus commands holy men and angels.

King David commanded his soldiers to withdraw and permit Uriah the Hittite to perish at the hands of his enemies. Similarly, Jesus commanded His angels to withdraw and permit King Saul to be defeated in battle. King Saul committed suicide. Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.

A: And I repeat again EGW's statement:

APL, please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158706
11/24/13 05:45 PM
11/24/13 05:45 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
APL, how Jesus punishes sinners is plainly revealed in the Bible and the SOP. You advocate one of the ways, namely, the withdraw and permit principle of punishment. However, there are several other ways:

1. Jesus employs the forces of nature.
2. Jesus uses His enemies.
3. Jesus commands holy men and angels.

King David commanded his soldiers to withdraw and permit Uriah the Hittite to perish at the hands of his enemies. Similarly, Jesus commanded His angels to withdraw and permit King Saul to be defeated in battle. King Saul committed suicide. Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.

A: And I repeat again EGW's statement:

APL, please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.
What is clear to me is that you and I have a very different view of SIN. To me, the penalty of sin is intrinsic. To you, the penalty of sin must be imposed. To me, disease and death all proceed from sin, cause and effect. To you, disease is something that can be externally imposed as punishment. EGW writes: Sin is the cause of physical degeneration; sin has blighted the race, and introduced disease, misery, and death. {PHJ, February 1, 1902 par. 3}

God is not the source of suffering, disease and death. This all stems from Sin. The only reason we have not fallen fully under the consequences of sin is because of the mercy of our Father. As GC36 says, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." God is not the executioner. "Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest." Cause and effect. "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." (note the "and")


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Rosangela] #158707
11/24/13 06:59 PM
11/24/13 06:59 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
But that he can manifest himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies of sin, such as ours is—that is a mystery.

This is not a mystery - this is a mistake.

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. ... He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. {5BC 1128.4}

Jones says exactly the opposite of what Ellen White says. Yet people perfer uninspired words over inspired words.
Actually Rosangela, AT Jones was quite in line with what EGW wrote. Perhaps you should consider some of the following, particularly note the first quote which you will not find on the EGW CDROM, but hopefully it will be in the full release of all of EGW's writing in 2015.

"Coming as He did, as a man, to meet and be subjected to, with all the evil tendencies to which man is heir, working in every conceivable manner to destroy His faith, He made it possible for Himself to be buffeted by human agencies inspired by Satan." Letter K-303, 1903, quoted in Adventist Review 17 February 1994

"Though He had all the strength of passion of humanity, never did He yield to temptation to do one single act which was not pure and elevating and ennobling."
{HP 155.7}

"He was made like unto His brethren, with the same susceptibilities, mental and physical. He was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin."
{RH, February 10, 1885 par. 7}

"Even doubts assailed the dying Son of God."
{2T 209.3}

"He blessed children that were possessed of passions like His own."
{ST, April 9, 1896 par. 6}

"The Son of God in His humanity wrestled with the very same fierce, apparently overwhelming temptations that assail men–temptations to indulgence of appetite, to presumptuous venturing where God has not led them, and to the worship of the god of this world, to sacrifice an eternity of bliss for the fascinating pleasures of this life."
{1SM 95.3}

"He knows how strong are the inclinations of the natural heart."
{5T 177.2}

He knows by experience what are the weaknesses of humanity, what are our wants, and where lies the strength of our temptations; for He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
Hebrews 4:15. {MH 71.5}

In Gethsemane: Christ's agony did not cease, but His depression and discouragement left Him.
{DA 694.2}

"Christ did in reality unite the offending nature of man with His own sinless nature..."
{RH, July 17, 1900 par. 8}

He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin. A human body, a human mind, with all the peculiar properties, He was bone, brain, and muscle. A man of our flesh, He was compassed with the weakness of humanity. The circumstances of His life were of that character that He was exposed to all the inconveniences that belong to men, not in wealth, not in ease, but in poverty and want and humiliation. He breathed the very air man must breathe. He trod our earth as man. He had reason, conscience, memory, will, and affections of the human soul which was united with His divine nature.
{16MR 181.4}

The higher attributes of His being it is our privilege to have, if we will, through the provisions He has made, appropriate these blessings and diligently cultivate the good in the place of the evil. We have reason, conscience, memory, will, affections--all the attributes a human being can possess. Through the provision made when God and the Son of God made a covenant to rescue man from the bondage of Satan, every facility was provided that human nature should come into union with His divine nature. In such a nature was our Lord tempted. He could have yielded to Satan's lying suggestions as did Adam, but we should adore and glorify the Lamb of God that He did not in a single point yield one jot or one tittle.
{3SM 130.2}

He put forth his strongest efforts to overcome Christ on the point of appetite at a time when he was enduring the keenest pangs of hunger. The victory gained was designed, not only to set an example to those who have fallen under the power of appetite, but to qualify the Redeemer for his special work of reaching to the very depths of human woe. By experiencing in himself the strength of Satan's temptation, and of human sufferings and infirmities, he would know how to succor those who should put forth efforts to help themselves.
{RH, March 18, 1875 par. 9}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158710
11/24/13 07:57 PM
11/24/13 07:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" The wrath of God fell upon Christ. This was the hiding of the Father's countenance. . {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 9}

For the fullest picture please compare the insight you posted above with the following description:

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

As you can read, there are things that will happen during the final judgment that clearly did not happen when Jesus drank the cup of trembling on the cross. In fact, there are startling dissimilarities. When Jesus paid our sin debt of death the earth was not enveloped in flames and molten lava. Nor did He writhe in flames tailored to punish. Even though He bore the sins of the world, Jesus died in six hours. Not so with sinners. "Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days." The most notable difference, however, is the fact Jesus was alive when He triumphantly cried out, "It is finished." He conquered the cup, the second death and lived to rise on the third day.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158711
11/24/13 08:00 PM
11/24/13 08:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.

A: And I repeat again EGW's statement:

M: APL, please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.

A: What is clear to me is that you and I have a very different view of SIN.

APL, please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158713
11/25/13 08:27 AM
11/25/13 08:27 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.

A: And I repeat again EGW's statement:

M: APL, please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.

A: What is clear to me is that you and I have a very different view of SIN.

APL, please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.
MM - have you not read what I have already posted? You already disagree with me on God's plan for Israel to not fight. If you don't accept that, how can I go further? You believe that it was God's plan for Israel to fight. I know it was not. Yet, fight they did and with God's direction too. The people's minds were blinded by unbelief. Read 2 Corinthians 3. And God continued to work with them. But just look at the history of Israel's failure!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158719
11/25/13 05:06 PM
11/25/13 05:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" The wrath of God fell upon Christ. This was the hiding of the Father's countenance. . {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 9}

For the fullest picture please compare the insight you posted above with the following description:

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

As you can read, there are things that will happen during the final judgment that clearly did not happen when Jesus drank the cup of trembling on the cross. In fact, there are startling dissimilarities. When Jesus paid our sin debt of death the earth was not enveloped in flames and molten lava. Nor did He writhe in flames tailored to punish. Even though He bore the sins of the world, Jesus died in six hours. Not so with sinners. "Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days." The most notable difference, however, is the fact Jesus was alive when He triumphantly cried out, "It is finished." He conquered the cup, the second death and lived to rise on the third day.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158720
11/25/13 05:15 PM
11/25/13 05:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus commanded Moses to kill criminals and combatants. We cannot, without ignoring the plainest utterances of God's Word, force every incident in the Bible to fit the withdraw and permit principle of punishment.

A: The people's minds were blinded by unbelief. Read 2 Corinthians 3.

Please explain how the withdraw and permit principle of punishment fits Jesus commanding Moses to kill criminals and combatants.

PS - As an aside, was Moses guilty of unbelief? Is that why Jesus commanded him to inflict capital punishment and to wage war?

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