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Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? #167624
08/21/14 12:54 PM
08/21/14 12:54 PM
Rosangela  Offline OP
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Posts: 6,154
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Quote:
The quote you posted is truncated. It ends with an ellipse. Which is why I posted quite a few other places where she describes Paul's experience and the expression "I die daily". When considered as a whole, it is obvious she believed Paul subdued his natural, selfish inclinations and did the will of God. He refused to act out the clamorings of his fallen flesh nature. Paul, like everyone else, possessed defects, weaknesses, and imperfections. While abiding in Jesus, however, he was empowered to subdue them. He refused to act them out.

This is from another thread, and the quote referred to is the following:

There is no such thing as an instantaneous sanctification. It is an every-day work. Says Paul, "I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). He received a conversion daily to God. As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself "from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1). . . . {UL 231.3}

Mike, I hope you will deal honestly with this quote. The paragraph expresses the thought in its entirety and EGW explains clearly the meaning of dying daily. Notice what she says:

1) The truth and the Spirit of God REVEALED to Paul the defects in his character. To reveal means to make known or to show, and it implies there was no previous knowledge, on the part of the person, of what is revealed. What does she mean by that?

2) When they were revealed to him, he put away his wrong and cleansed himself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit. I asked, If this is the same as subduing sinful tendencies, could you say the same about Christ? Did Christ put away His wrong?

Again, dictionary definitions of "wrong":
n. 1.
a. An unjust or injurious act.
b. Something contrary to ethics or morality.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167630
08/22/14 02:33 AM
08/22/14 02:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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It is prudent to include how Ellen White spoke of Paul's experience elsewhere and her use of the phrase - "I die daily".

Quote:
Right in the common walks of life is where self is to be denied and kept in subordination. Paul could say: "I die daily." It is the daily dying to self in the little transactions of life that makes us overcomers. {CCh 80.2}

Every soul must battle against inclination. Christ came not to save men in their sins, but from their sins. He has made it possible for us to possess a holy character; do not, then, be content with defects and deformities. But while we are to seek earnestly for perfection of character, we must remember that sanctification is not the work of a moment, but of a lifetime. Said Paul, “I die daily.” Day by day the work of overcoming must go forward. Every day we are to resist temptation, and gain the victory over selfishness in all its forms. Day by day we should cherish love and humility, and cultivate in ourselves all those excellencies of character which will please God and fit us for the blessed society of heaven. {HS 181.2}

Sanctification is the work, not of a day or of a year, but of a lifetime. The struggle for conquest over self, for holiness and heaven, is a lifelong struggle. . . . Paul's sanctification was the result of a constant conflict with self. He said, "I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). . . . It is by unceasing endeavor that we maintain the victory over the temptations of Satan. Christian integrity must be sought with resistless energy, and maintained with a resolute fixedness of purpose. {HP 26.3}

There is a science of Christianity to be mastered--a science as much deeper, broader, higher, than any human science as the heavens are higher than the earth. The mind is to be disciplined, educated, trained; for we are to do service for God in ways that are not in harmony with inborn inclination. There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Our hearts must be educated to become steadfast in God. We are to form habits of thought that will enable us to resist temptation. By a life of holy endeavor and firm adherence to the right the children of God are to seal their destiny. {HP 26.4}

On one occasion I spoke in reference to genuine sanctification, which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. While in Oregon I had been shown that some of the young churches of the New England Conference were in danger through the blighting influence of what is called sanctification. Some would become deceived by this doctrine, while others, knowing its deceptive influence, would realize their danger and turn from it. Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. Said he, "I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31. His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. {LS 237.1}

The life of the apostle Paul was a constant conflict with self. He said, "I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31. His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did God's will, however crucifying to his nature. {MH 452.4}

At the close of his life of conflict, looking back over its struggles and triumphs, he could say, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day." 2 Timothy 4:7, 8. {MH 453.1}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. In this warfare there is no release; the effort must be continuous and persevering. It is by unceasing endeavor that we maintain the victory over the temptations of Satan. Christian integrity must be sought with resistless energy and maintained with a resolute fixedness of purpose. {MH 453.2}

No one will be borne upward without stern, persevering effort in his own behalf. All must engage in this warfare for themselves; no one else can fight our battles. Individually we are responsible for the issues of the struggle; though Noah, Job, and Daniel were in the land they could deliver neither son nor daughter by their righteousness. {MH 453.3}

The Lord requires us to be submissive to His will, subdued by His Spirit, and sanctified to His service. Selfishness must be put away, and we must overcome every defect in our characters as Christ overcame. In order to accomplish this work, we must die daily to self. Said Paul: "I die daily." He had a new conversion every day, took an advance step toward heaven. To gain daily victories in the divine life is the only course that God approves. The Lord is gracious, of tender pity, and plenteous in mercy. He knows our needs and weaknesses, and He will help our infirmities if we only trust in Him and believe that He will bless us and do great things for us. {4T 66.4}

I spoke again about thirty minutes in reference to genuine sanctification which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. Paul's sanctification was a daily conflict with self. Said he, "I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31). His will and his desires daily conflicted with duty and the will of God. In the plan of not following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. The reason many in this age of the world make no greater advancement in the divine life is because they interpret their own will to be just what God wills. They do exactly as they desire and flatter themselves they are conforming to God's will. They please self in everything and have no conflict with self. {TDG 251.2}

Many battle well at first against selfish desires for pleasure and ease. They are sincere and earnest, but grow weary of protracted effort of daily death, ceaseless turmoil with resisting Satan's temptations, and indolence seems inviting, death too self-repulsive, and they close the drowsy eyes and drop under temptation instead of resisting it. Fashionable sins, pride of life, do not seem so very repulsive. {TDG 251.3}

Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. "I die daily," he said. Every day his will and his desires conflicted with duty and the will of God. But instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. If we would press forward to the mark of our high calling in Christ Jesus, we must show that we are emptied of all self, and supplied with the golden oil of grace. God is dealing with us through his providence. From eternity he has chosen us to be his obedient children. He gave his Son to die for us, that we might be sanctified through obedience to the truth, cleansed from all the littleness of self. Now he requires of us a personal work, a personal self-surrender. We are to be controlled by the Holy Spirit. God can be honored only when we who profess to believe in him are conformed to his image. We are to represent to the world the beauty of holiness, and we shall never enter the gates of the city of God until we perfect a Christlike character. If we, with trust in God, strive for sanctification, we shall receive it. Then, as witnesses for Christ, we may make known what the grace of God has wrought in us. {YI, August 24, 1899 par. 3}

Paul's sanctification was the result of a constant conflict with self. He said: "I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31. His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did God's will, however crucifying to his own nature. {8T 313.3}

The Lord would have us submissive to his will, and sanctified to his service. Selfishness must be put away, with every other defect in our characters. There must be a daily death to self. Paul had this experience. He said, "I die daily." Every day he had a new conversion; every day he took an advance step toward Heaven. We, too, must gain daily victories in the divine life, if we would enjoy the favor of God. {ST, March 3, 1887 par. 18}

True conviction of sin, real heart sorrow because of wickedness, death to self, the daily overcoming of defects of character, and the new birth—these, represented as old things, Paul says had passed away, and all things had become new. Such a work many know nothing of. They grafted the truth into their natural hearts, and then went on as before, manifesting the same unhappy traits of character. {OFC 300.5}

They were ungovernable, unsubdued, unregenerated, and unconsecrated . . . They had never viewed themselves in the light in which Paul viewed himself, which led him to see the moral defects in his character. They had never been slain by the law of God, and had not separated themselves from their impurities and defilement. {2T 554}

No man can gain eternal life without holiness; hence the question of deepest interest with each of us should be, "Am I meeting the requirements of God? Am I doing his will? Am I forming a character that he can approve?" And where shall we find the will of God expressed, except in the moral law, that law which has been given to us as the standard of righteousness, to reveal to us the defects in our moral character; that law which Paul declares to be holy, just, and good? {BEcho, June 1, 1887 par. 2}

While we point the sinner to Jesus as the one who can take away sin, we must explain to him what sin is, and show him that he can be saved from his sins, but not in them. He must be made to realize that "sin is the transgression of the law." Paul made the inquiry, many years after the death of Christ, "Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Thus Paul exalts the moral law. When this law is practically carried out in every-day life, it is found indeed to be the wisdom of God. It serves to detect sin. It discovers the defects in the moral character, and shows sin to be exceeding sinful, revealing it in all hideousness. Through obedience to its requirements, Christian character is perfected. {BEcho, April 16, 1894 par. 11}

The law of God is a perfect standard of character. It shows to every man the excellence which he must possess in order to be saved. God has held up before us this great detector, that all may see whom he will commend, and whom he will condemn. The law revealed to Paul his defects of character; but he did not seek to abolish the law because he stood condemned before it. He said, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came [home to his conscience], sin [in his character] revived, and I died. . . . Wherefore the law [that worked so sharply against the natural propensities] is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." To his quickened conscience, sin became exceedingly sinful. This is the work of the law and the Holy Spirit, that convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. {HM, October 1, 1897 par. 10}

Now, while we point the sinner to Jesus Christ as the one who can take away sin, we must explain to him what sin is, and show him the necessity of being saved from his sins, not in them. He must be made to feel that he must cease to transgress the law of God, which is to cease to sin. Paul makes the inquiry many years after the death of Christ, "Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Thus saying, Paul exalts the moral law. When this law is practically carried out in every-day life, it is found indeed to be the wisdom of God. It serves to detect sin. It discovers the defects in the moral character, and in the light of the law sin becomes exceeding sinful, revealing its true character in all its hideousness. {RH, September 27, 1881 par. 16}

The law of God given from Sinai is a copy of the mind and will of the Infinite God. It is sacredly revered by the holy angels. Obedience to its requirements will perfect Christian character, and restore man, through Christ, to his condition before the fall. {RH, September 27, 1881 par. 17}

We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

Before Paul experienced genuine conversion to God, selfishness controlled his mind and soul. His estimate of everything was a wrong estimate, for self-aggrandizement and selfishness had an influence upon his entire life and character. He praised his own zeal. He was carrying a mirror with him, not a mirror in which to discover the defects of his character, but a mirror in which he might admire himself. Everything was turned into self-glorification; but after Jesus was revealed to him, his lofty opinion of himself was gone. He saw nothing in which to glory, save the cross of Christ. The Lord brought Paul over a path that was difficult to travel, but the apostle saw in it precious opportunities to prove his fidelity to Jesus, whom he had persecuted in the person of his saints. {ST, June 1, 1888 par. 7}

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167631
08/22/14 02:35 AM
08/22/14 02:35 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Loyalty to the law is Loyalty to God.

By Mrs. E. G. White.

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he can not sin, because he is born of God." The standard which is to test every doctrine, every theory, every profession, is the law of God. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin,"--break the law of Jehovah. If a man is born of God, he will respect the principles of the divine government, and will not wilfully transgress the law of God in thought, or word, or action. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures." Jesus prayed that his disciples might be sanctified through the truth, and added, "Thy word is truth." {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 1}

The new birth is accomplished by the reception of the word of God; but those who belittle the word of God, those who cast contempt upon the law of Jehovah, place themselves under the banner of the prince of darkness. Satan began the work of rebellion in heaven by opposition to the constitution and government of God; and this is the manner of work he has carried on ever since the fall of man. Through the agency of evil men he seeks to make void the law of the Most High. "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Christ vindicated and honored the law of God, declaring that upon the principles of the Ten Commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Those who manifest disrespect for the law of Jehovah, make it evident that they have not been born again, and the truth does not abide in them. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 2}

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." This statement must be so read as to harmonize with the statement that if we are born of God, we shall not commit sin; for "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him." John says, "I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning." {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 3}

"Whoso abideth in him sinneth not," that is, does not wilfully transgress the law of God; for "sin is the transgression of the law." But what conclusion are we to draw from the profession of those who claim to be sanctified, to be living without sin, and yet who openly cast contempt upon the law of God? They claim to possess advanced piety, and at the same time, by thought, and word, and deed, they transgress the law, and teach others by precept and example that they may sin with impunity. John tests their pretentious claims, and says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Those who claim to be sanctified, and who at the same time openly defame the law of God, are in terrible deception, and are blasphemers of the God of heaven. John says, "Let no man deceive you; he that doeth righteousness [keeps the commandments of God] is righteous, even as He is righteous. He that committeth sin [transgresses the law] is of the devil." God has placed the transgressor of the law in the ranks of the powers of darkness, in the company of the first great apostate. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 4}

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." Even those who are striving in sincerity to keep the law of God, are not always free from sin. Through some deceptive temptation, they are deceived, and fall into error. But when their sin comes home to their conscience, they see themselves condemned in the light of the holy precepts of God's law; but they do not war against the law which condemns them; they repent of their sin, and seek pardon through the merit of Christ, who died for their sins in order that they might be justified by faith in his blood. They do not avoid confession and repentance when the neglected law of God is brought to their attention, by exclaiming, as do the self-righteous pretenders to holiness, "I am sanctified, I am holy, and I can not sin." This is the class whom the apostle rebukes; for he says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." It is evident that where a claim to sinlessness is made, there the law of God has not been written in the heart; for the commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The apostle speaks words of encouragement to those who realize that they are sinners, and says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." "If we say we have no sin," when our thoughts, words, and actions, reflected from the law of God, the great moral mirror, reveal us as transgressors, we make God a liar, and prove that his word is not in us. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 5}

The apostle draws a sharp distinction between the condition of the avowed transgressor, who dares to live in defiance of God's law, and yet make claim to holiness, and the condition of him who, tho yielding his heart to the claims of the law of God, still sees defects in his character, and bows in humility before God to make confession of sin. Paul says: "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law; for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead." How dangerous is the position of men who, while claiming sanctification, still will not receive the light of the law by which sin is detected! Sanctification is conformity to the will of God, and the will of God is expressed in his holy law. Those only are truly sanctified who live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. How terrible is it to be a false light, and, while claiming salvation through the merit of the blood of Christ, to be sowing the seed of rebellion against the law of God in the hearts of men! {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 6}

Paul continues, "I was alive without the law once [supposing himself to be righteous]; but when the commandment came [home to his conscience], sin revived, and [the law(?) died]." This is what many would be glad to have us believe; but it is a fatal falsehood, and we can not believe it in the light of God's word; for Paul declares: "Sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." The testimony of Paul was in harmony with the words of the Lord in the Old Testament; for he says: "Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein; I am the Lord your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments; which if a man do, he shall live in them." "And I gave them my statutes, and showed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them. But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness; they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my Sabbaths they greatly polluted; then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them." "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 7}

Paul waged no war against the commandments of God because of the sharp work they had done in detecting his sin; but, altho he was condemned to death by the sentence of the law, he exclaims, "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Those who wage war against the commandments of God make it manifest that their minds are carnal; for "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh can not please God." But even when we stand in defense of the law of God, and in opposition to the world, who are making void that law, and who are coming under the temptation of the enemy of God, yet we are not to say that we have no sin, but in meekness repent of sin, and make confession of our shortcoming before the Lord. The law points out our defects of character, but when we see that we have come short, we shall not feel like berating the law which has condemned our sin, we shall not be disposed to call the commandments of God a yoke of bondage, but, like Paul, we shall acknowledge our sin, and self will die. For "if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 8}

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167632
08/22/14 02:41 AM
08/22/14 02:41 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Quote:
As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself "from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God {UL 231.3}

Quote:
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

In light of all the passages posted above it is difficult to believe UL 231 implies Paul was converted ignorantly practicing certain cultivated sinful habits. His encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus involved more than "one ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ".

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167640
08/22/14 03:24 PM
08/22/14 03:24 PM
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Why did I get the feeling that Roseangela thought you thought differently?

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167641
08/22/14 03:35 PM
08/22/14 03:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
I asked, If this is the same as subduing sinful tendencies, could you say the same about Christ?

Jesus did not cultivate sinful traits of character. He inherited them, but He did not cultivate them - He did not cherish them, He did not act them out in thoughts, words, or deeds. He subdued, controlled, reigned in the traits and tendencies He inherited. Through fallen, defiled, degraded human nature Jesus partook of the divine nature and overcame (subdued, controlled, reigned in) the human traits and tendencies He inherited.

Quote:
Selfishness must be put away, and we must overcome every defect in our characters as Christ overcame. In order to accomplish this work, we must die daily to self. Said Paul: "I die daily." He had a new conversion every day, took an advance step toward heaven. To gain daily victories in the divine life is the only course that God approves.

If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the blood-washed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering, in the name of Jesus, overcome as He overcame. {Con 66.1}

We are called upon to overcome in this life as Christ overcame. Heaven has provided us with abundant opportunities and privileges, so that we may overcome as Christ overcame, and sit down with Him on His throne. But in order to be overcomers, there must be in our lives no petting of fleshly inclinations. All selfishness must be cut out by the roots (Letter 156, 1900). {6BC 1112.6}

When a man is earnestly engaged day by day in overcoming the defects in his character, he is cherishing Christ in his soul-temple; the light of Christ is in him. Under the bright beams of the light of Christ's countenance his entire being becomes elevated and ennobled. He has the peace of heaven in his soul. Many give loose rein to passion, avarice, selfishness, and deception, and all the time excuse themselves and lay the blame on the circumstances which brought around the trial to themselves. This has been your case. God permitted your surroundings to exist to develop character. But you could have made your surroundings; for by resisting or enduring temptation, circumstances are controlled by the might of the will in the name of Jesus. This is overcoming as Christ overcame. "This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." {4T 346.1}

You may feel that you cannot meet the approval of heaven. You may say, "I was born with a natural tendency toward this evil, and I cannot overcome." But every provision has been made by our heavenly Father whereby you may be able to overcome every unholy tendency. You are to overcome even as Christ overcame in your behalf. He says, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Revelation 3:21). It was sin that imperiled the human family; and before man was created the provision was made that if man failed to bear the test, Jesus would become His sacrifice and surety, that through faith in Him, man might be reconciled to God, for Christ was the Lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8). Christ died on Calvary that man might have power to overcome his natural tendencies to sin. {YRP 350.3}

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." He speaks of Himself as well as the Father when He speaks of omnipotent power, and claims for Himself perfect righteousness. In Christ dwelt the fulness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world untainted by the corruptions that surrounded Him. We also are to become partakers of that fulness, and only in this way shall we be enabled to overcome as Christ overcame. {BEcho, November 1, 1892 par. 8}

We want to be right, to do right, and then be cheerful and happy, believing that the Lord will bless us every day while we fight the good fight of faith, overcoming appetite and passion in the oft-repeated conflict, overcoming as Christ overcame, by meeting the enemy with, 'It is written.' {MM, September 1, 1891 par. 3}

But life will not be sacrificed in the struggle to overcome depraved appetites. And it is a certainty that unless we do overcome as Christ overcame we cannot have a seat with him upon his throne. {RH, March 18, 1875 par. 11}

John pointed the people to the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. He said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). There is a great deal in that "taketh away." The question is, shall we keep on sinning as though it were an impossibility for us to overcome? How are we to overcome? As Christ overcame. He prayed to His heavenly Father; we can do the same, and that is the only way. Then, we are to overcome something, for it is stated that those who shall see Him in His beauty shall be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. {9MR 76.1}

It is by overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil that any student comes into possession of that knowledge that gives him access to the tree of life. We must all learn that we must overcome as Christ overcame in our behalf. All pride is sin, and must be expelled from the soul. Christ came to cut us loose from the originator of sin. He came to give us a mastery over the power of the destroyer, and to save us from the sting of the serpent. Through his imparted righteousness he would place all human beings where they will be on vantage ground. He came to this earth and lived the law of God that man might stand in his God-given manhood, having complete mastery over his natural inclination to self-indulgence and to the selfish ideas and principles which tarnish the soul. The Physician of soul and body, he will give wisdom and complete victory over warring lusts. He will provide every facility, that man may perfect a completeness of character in every respect. {7MR 320.1}

The greatest triumph given us by the religion of Christ is control over ourselves. Our natural propensities must be controlled, or we can never overcome as Christ overcame. {4T 235.1}

We are called upon to overcome. Heaven has provided us with abundant opportunities and privileges so that we may overcome as Christ overcame and sit down with Him on his throne. But in order to be overcomers, there must be in our lives no petting of fleshly inclinations. All selfishness must be cut out by the roots. {SW, January 15, 1901 par. 4}

You may say, "I was born with a natural tendency toward this evil, and I cannot overcome." But every provision has been made by our heavenly Father whereby you may be able to overcome every unholy tendency. You are to overcome even as Christ overcame in your behalf. {YRP 350.3}

Jesus overcame like born-again believers can and must overcome. It is pointless for Ellen White to say so if Jesus is unlike born-again believers or if His battles with sin, self, and Satan were unlike those of born-again believers. The truth is - Jesus fought the same battles born-again believers fight (not necessarily the same battles unconverted people fight).

Quote:
When Christ would define the advancement possible for us, He said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This advancement is not gained without effort. The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight--the greatest battle that was ever fought by man--is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, can not inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the formed habits, must be given up. {ST, May 18, 1904 par. 7}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We can not, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that struggle for the mastery. We can not overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He can not work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {ST, May 18, 1904 par. 8}

But a warfare against self, subduing the desires and affections of his own heart, and searching out and controlling the secret motives of the heart, is a more difficult warfare. How unwilling is he to be faithful in such a contest as this! The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. The holy life and character of Christ is a faithful example. His confidence in His heavenly Father was unlimited. His obedience and submission were unreserved and perfect. He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister to others. He came not to do His own will, but the will of Him that sent Him. In all things He submitted Himself to Him that judgeth righteously. From the lips of the Saviour of the world were heard these words: "I can of Mine own self do nothing." {3T 106.2}

Jesus did, indeed, fight the "greatest battle". He did not pass through life without having to fight the "greatest battle."

Quote:
Bear in mind that Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give, to His human nature, a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. {6MR 341.2}

Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ, He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. {6MR 341.3}

The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. The Lord now demands that every son and daughter of Adam through faith in Jesus Christ, serve Him in human nature which we now have. {6MR 341.4}

The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, could only keep the commandments of God, in the same way that humanity can keep them. "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. {6MR 342.1}

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Corinthians 3:18. The glory he mentioned is character, therefore by thinking and talking of Jesus we become charmed with His character, and by faith we become changed from character to character. "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." "Ye are the light of the world . . . Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." We must practice the example of Christ, bearing in mind His Sonship and His humanity. It was not God that was tempted in the wilderness, nor a god that was to endure the contradiction of sinners against himself. It was the Majesty of heaven who became a man--humbled Himself to our human nature. {6MR 342.2}

We are not to serve God as if we were not human, but we are to serve Him in the nature we have, that has been redeemed by the Son of God; through the righteousness of Christ we shall stand before God pardoned, and as though we had never sinned. We will never gain strength in considering what we might do if we were angels. We are to turn in faith to Jesus Christ, and show our love to God through obedience to His commands. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Jesus says, "follow me." "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Jesus leads the way. Do not wait and continue in disobedience, hoping circumstances may change making it easier for you to obey. Go forward for you know the will of God. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." {6MR 342.3}

Because Jesus fought the "greatest battle" like a born-again believer He is able to succor them. "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: kland] #167642
08/22/14 03:38 PM
08/22/14 03:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Why did I get the feeling that Roseangela thought you thought differently?

She believes Paul was converted ignorantly practicing some of the sinful habits he cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth and conversion in God's appointed way. I don't. We differ greatly on this point.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167643
08/22/14 03:50 PM
08/22/14 03:50 PM
K
kland  Offline
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I guess my memory fails me, but I thought you in the past had talked about people sinning ignorantly.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167647
08/22/14 04:36 PM
08/22/14 04:36 PM
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No, your memory is fine. Jesus does, in certain cases, allow people to ignorantly break the Sabbath or ignorantly eat pork. He even allows some people to live and die having never heard of Jesus or the Gospel. Yet these people will be in the New Earth. But Jesus never leaves people in ignorance of cultivated sinful traits of character. Ignorantly breaking the Sabbath is not the same as ignorantly slapping a child in anger or snapping at a spouse in a fit of impatience.

The minds of many are clouded with unbelief because those who unite with the church as the chosen of God do not reveal the virtues that are the fruits of the Spirit. Joining the church is not a sure evidence that a man has joined himself to Christ. The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {12MR 51.1}

Thousands who claim to be religious are not Christians. Paul was very strict in carrying out his religion, but he was not a Christian until Christ revealed Himself to him and talked with him, showing him that he was persecuting his Master in the person of His saints. Then Paul was converted. He became one of the sect he had despised and hated; and for his love of Christ he received the same cruel treatment that he had once cooperated with others in giving. {12MR 51.2}

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167648
08/22/14 04:38 PM
08/22/14 04:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Many parents have never yet been converted, therefore their old self-indulgent habits have been brought with them into the church. They were not dead to self when they observed the ordinance of baptism. They were buried alive, and they have remained full of murmuring, full of faultfinding, hating the messages that come to them through the Lord's servants, because of the wickedness of their hearts. They are at enmity with God, and their children breathe in the same atmosphere. They may have good instruction in Sabbath school, they may listen to the most solemn appeals, but they care for none of these things. When in the house of worship, they have little sense that the Lord is giving them instruction through His messengers. Some children sit and read a book or a paper while the words of truth are being presented from the oracles of God. In their present spiritual deadness, the parents feel no special burden, and never will until God shall send His judgments upon them. {21MR 35.4}

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