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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170099
11/24/14 03:44 PM
11/24/14 03:44 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Indeed, that which is spiritual is more real than that which is fleshly, because only that which is spiritual will endure for ever. Amen!
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: APL]
#170110
11/24/14 09:28 PM
11/24/14 09:28 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Posts: 5,615
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Good grief asygo. Read AGAIN: By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3} It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. {GC 569.1} It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5} NOTE - He came with such a "heredity to share our sorrows and temptations". Still you say that Jesus was as morally degenerate as His contemporaries. No matter how many quotes you put together, or how vehemently you present them, you're still wrong. Your insistence that Jesus was equal in moral worth to degenerate humanity reveals the confusion of the sophistry you are offering. You pray for a savior from your physical sickness, but what you need is a Savior from your moral sickness.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170114
11/24/14 10:27 PM
11/24/14 10:27 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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Arnold, sinful flesh wars against the new mind, the new heart. It seems as though you believe these warring lusts and affections flow from the new mind, the new heart. The following passages describe in detail the "fleshly lusts which war against the soul" There are many who would receive the truths of God's word, their judgment having been convinced by the clearest evidence; but the carnal desires, clamoring for gratification, control the intellect, and they reject truth because it conflicts with their lustful desires. The minds of many take so low a level that God cannot work either for them or with them. The current of their thoughts must be changed, their moral sensibilities must be aroused, before they can feel the claims of God. {CTBH 9.2}
Pride and fashion hold men and women in the veriest slavery to customs which are fatal to health and even to life itself. The appetites and passions, clamoring for indulgence, trample reason and conscience underfoot. This is the cruel work of Satan, and he is constantly putting forth the most determined efforts to strengthen the chains by which he has bound his victims. Those who have been all their lives indulging wrong habits do not always realize the necessity of a change. And many will persist in gratifying their desire for sinful pleasure at any cost. Let the conscience be aroused and much is gained. Nothing but the grace of God can convict and convert the heart; here alone can the slaves of custom obtain power to break the shackles which bind them. The self-indulgent must be led to see and feel that a great moral renovation is necessary if they would meet the claims of the divine law; the soul-temple has been defiled, and God calls upon them to arouse and strive with all their might to win back the God-given manhood which has been sacrificed through sinful indulgence. {4T 552.2}
When burdened, when pressed with temptation, when the feelings and desires of the natural heart are clamoring for the victory, earnest, fervent, importunate prayer in the name of Christ brings Jesus to your side as a helper, and through His name you gain the victory and Satan is vanquished. {OHC 25.2}
Divine truth can make little impression upon the intellect while the customs and habits are opposed to its principles. Those who are willing to inform themselves concerning the effect of sinful indulgence upon the health, and who commence the work of reform, even if it be from selfish motives, in so doing place themselves where the truth of God may find access to their hearts. And, on the other hand, those who are reached by the presentation of Scripture truth are then in a position where their consciences will be aroused upon the subject of health. They see and feel the necessity of breaking away from the tyrannizing habits and appetites which have ruled them so long. There are many who would receive the truths of God's word, their judgment having been convinced by the clearest evidence; but the carnal desires, clamoring for gratification, control the intellect, and they reject truth as falsehood, because it comes in collision with their lustful affections. {4T 553.1}
Satan will lead them on from step to step, as it were blindfolded, and with his suggestions will, as they advance, stir up the human passions to depravity which will prove their eternal ruin. There is already developing a strong inclination to that which is evil and destructive in its manifestation. Appetites and passions are clamoring for indulgence and gratification. Reason and conscience remonstrated at every step for a time, but the voice of Satan is heard presenting worldly lusts in attractive garments, and sin becomes attractive. They depart farther from the counsel of God and the authoritative voice speaking from His Word. These youth need to pray, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." {20MR 52.4} "To whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey." If we indulge anger, lust, covetousness, hatred, selfishness, or any other sin, we become servants of sin. "No man can serve two masters." If we serve sin, we cannot serve Christ. The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" {LHU 144.4} NOTE: the promptings of sin = the flesh lusteth against the Spirit. To seems to me you are saying the warring lusts of the flesh is the fruit of abiding in the Spirit and mind of the new man.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: APL]
#170117
11/24/14 11:12 PM
11/24/14 11:12 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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What was the original sin - according to the Bible? In the day you THINK about eating the fruit, or in the day you EAT? Which is it? What does EGW say? The Bible says clearly, "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasing to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of its fruit, and ate" (Gen. 3:6). What is Jesus' concept of sin? Is sin in the desire which precedes the act or in the act itself? "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt 5:27, 28). If as you say, sin affects the body, PLEASE, tell me how that happens? The mind will produce destructive emotions, which will affect the body, and will lead the body to do things which will affect the body negatively (like, for instance, eating unhealthy things). So, there is an interrelation between mind and body. And tell me how sin causes disease in the animal creation? Do the animals have a spiritual/soul problem too? Well, disease is not so prevalent among animals as it is among humans, and when they do experience disease, it's in great part owing to bad conditions imposed to them by humans, and owing to unhealthy conditions in the world. Are we to crucify the soul or the flesh? Interestingly, the words "flesh" and "body" do not refer primarily to the body, but to that which controls the body, that is, the mind. "We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? ... The corrupt thought is to be expelled. {AH 127.2} "The words, 'I keep under my body,' literally mean to beat back by severe discipline the desires, impulses, and passions." {AA 314.1}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170121
11/25/14 01:22 AM
11/25/14 01:22 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
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Arnold, sinful flesh wars against the new mind, the new heart. It seems as though you believe these warring lusts and affections flow from the new mind, the new heart. No, they don't come from the new mind/heart. They come from the old mind/heart. That they clamor so strongly says that the old mind/heart lives. You believe these moral issues emanate from the body. I don't.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: asygo]
#170127
11/25/14 02:04 AM
11/25/14 02:04 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Good grief asygo. Read AGAIN: By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3} It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. {GC 569.1} It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5} NOTE - He came with such a "heredity to share our sorrows and temptations". Still you say that Jesus was as morally degenerate as His contemporaries. No matter how many quotes you put together, or how vehemently you present them, you're still wrong. Your insistence that Jesus was equal in moral worth to degenerate humanity reveals the confusion of the sophistry you are offering. You pray for a savior from your physical sickness, but what you need is a Savior from your moral sickness. Perhaps you need to define what you insist I believe, because I sure do not get what you are saying. Christ had a perfect character and never participated in sinful behavior. You are wrong about what I think.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: asygo]
#170130
11/25/14 02:20 PM
11/25/14 02:20 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Arnold, sinful flesh wars against the new mind, the new heart. It seems as though you believe these warring lusts and affections flow from the new mind, the new heart.
A: No, they don't come from the new mind/heart. They come from the old mind/heart. That they clamor so strongly says that the old mind/heart lives. You believe these moral issues emanate from the body. I don't. The brain is an integral part of the body. The mind is a function of the brain. Thoughts, feelings, character, willpower, personality, temperament, etc are functions of the brain. She says - "The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it." Again - "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." It tempts, but cannot sin. Sinful flesh tempts in the form of unholy thoughts and feelings - do this, do that without reference to truth or temperance. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. Such thoughts and feelings are not the result of sinning. Nor do they corrupt or contaminate. So long as they are not cherished or acted out in thought, word, or deed there is no harm or foul. You wrote - "You believe these moral issues emanate from the body." I hope you see the difference. The body is the seat of the soul, the very essence of humans. Sinful flesh has its "seat in the body" and "works through it" to generate temptations, unholy thoughts and feelings. Sinful flesh is the source of these internally generated temptations - not the body. The body is not sinful flesh. It is the channel through which sinful flesh tempts. I believe the old man mind, the old man heart dies when people experience rebirth in God's appointed way. Jesus replaces it with the new mind, the new heart. But, as you know, rebirth is rare. Most people do not experience it. They retain many of their cultivated sinful habits and practices. "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7} However, just because the old man mind and heart dies it does not mean sinful flesh ceases tempting from within. The old mind, the old heart is not the sinful flesh. They are two different aspects of fallen human nature. The voice of sinful flesh will not be silenced until the day Jesus replaces it with sinless flesh. "The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit; but the Spirit striveth against the flesh, keeping up a constant warfare. {SL 92.2} "There is no release in this warfare; the battle is lifelong . . . . {ML 313.3} "Our natural inclinations and appetites . . . were divinely appointed, and when given to man, were pure and holy. It was God's design that reason should rule the appetites, and that they should minister to our happiness. And when they are regulated and controlled by a sanctified reason, they are holiness unto the Lord. {CG 378.1} "You are of that age when the will, the appetite, and the passions clamor for indulgence. God has implanted these in your nature for high and holy purposes. It is not necessary that they should become a curse to you by being debased. They will become this only when you refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. {3T 84.1}
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170347
12/03/14 01:05 PM
12/03/14 01:05 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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So, the messages the organs of the body communicate (hunger, thirst, pain, etc) are not the same as the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh nature.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170351
12/03/14 02:20 PM
12/03/14 02:20 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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A: No, they don't come from the new mind/heart. They come from the old mind/heart. That they clamor so strongly says that the old mind/heart lives. You believe these moral issues emanate from the body. I don't. The brain is an integral part of the body. The mind is a function of the brain. Thoughts, feelings, character, willpower, personality, temperament, etc are functions of the brain. She says - "The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it." So sin is a malfunction of the brain? And what happened when Adam sinned in a perfect body, with a perfect brain? Besides, I understand the lower passions are just the physical appetites/impulses. They are not originated in the mind.
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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#170353
12/03/14 04:04 PM
12/03/14 04:04 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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So sin is a malfunction of the brain? And what happened when Adam sinned in a perfect body, with a perfect brain? What was Adam's sin? Thinking about eating the fruit, or actually eating it? Besides, I understand the lower passions are just the physical appetites/impulses. They are not originated in the mind. Is there a mind without the brain? This is Adventism 101! Just alcohol affect the judgment of the mind?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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