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Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: kland] #177768
11/04/15 02:56 PM
11/04/15 02:56 PM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Asia
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
For us to keep those feast days and sacrifices now would make an absolute mockery of the work of God in Heaven. We would be showing total contempt for the atonement process.
Ellen White wrote something similar regarding Passover:

This ordinance does not speak so largely to man's intellectual capacity as to his heart. His moral and spiritual nature needs it. If his disciples had not needed this, it would not have been left for them as Christ's last established ordinance in connection with, and including, the last supper. It was Christ's desire to leave to his disciples an ordinance that would do for them the very thing they needed,--that would serve to disentangle them from the rites and ceremonies which they had hitherto engaged in as essential, and which the reception of the gospel made no longer of any force. To continue these rites would be an insult to Jehovah. Eating of the body, and drinking of the blood, of Christ, not merely at the sacramental service, but daily partaking of the bread of life to satisfy the soul's hunger, would be in receiving his word and doing his will. {RH, June 14, 1898 par. 16}


I say Amen! to that statement.

Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #177799
11/05/15 06:52 PM
11/05/15 06:52 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline OP
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Stephen Jones:

"The Saturday Sabbath, as I showed, was based upon Passover. The Sunday Sabbath was based upon the presentation of the Son to the Father, followed by Pentecost."



How is it possible that the Sabbath, "sanctified" at the conclusion of Creation before the entrance of sin, can be "based upon Passover"?

Was Passover not instituted many centuries later in response to sin?

This false doctrine seeks to cast a shadow over the six literal days of Creation and turn the Word of God on its head!



"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #177806
11/06/15 04:43 PM
11/06/15 04:43 PM
K
kland  Offline
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And there are some saying that all the feast days were at creation. I'm not sure how they support it, though.

Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #177810
11/06/15 07:35 PM
11/06/15 07:35 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline OP
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Since, Passover commemorates the firstborn of Israel being saved from death in Egypt, it is difficult to fathom how such a feast could exist before humanity sinned?


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: kland] #177828
11/07/15 08:58 AM
11/07/15 08:58 AM
Rick H  Offline

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Originally Posted By: kland
Before she sidetracks on talking about 8th day laws, or 9th day laws, or even 1st day laws, she first needs to address the statement she made:
Originally Posted By: Elle
There is some truth in this statement : "Jones teaches that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday as part of the New Covenant" But it is not all the truth.
That is, how was it changed?


Gods Law doesn't change no matter what man comes up with...

Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: Rick H] #177835
11/07/15 01:51 PM
11/07/15 01:51 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: kland
Before she sidetracks on talking about 8th day laws, or 9th day laws, or even 1st day laws, she first needs to address the statement she made:
Originally Posted By: Elle
There is some truth in this statement : "Jones teaches that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday as part of the New Covenant" But it is not all the truth.
That is, how was it changed?


Gods Law doesn't change no matter what man comes up with...

I would like to address many comments expressed in this thread, but time is not available right now.

I agree that God's Law didn't change, but you probably have narrowed down the Law to the 10Cs whereas I'm (&Stephen) talking about the Pentateuch. In the Pentateuch there's more than the weekly Sabbath, there's the Feasts Sabbaths, the yearly, and the Jubilee Sabbath. The 10Cs was a "introductory-summary of the whole Law". We need to look at the whole law to understand more deeply the 10Cs.


Blessings
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #177837
11/07/15 03:45 PM
11/07/15 03:45 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
I know elle rejects EGW, but for others, EGW has categories of Laws in Torah - Moral, Ceremonial, Political and Social.

The Sabbath is of divine appointment. It stands in the center of a list of divine requirements. What right has man to drop out one of these rules of life? Who has authorized the blotting out of the fourth any more than the second or the eighth? If the fourth commandment is not binding upon man, how then can the law of murder be binding? The moral law is not exclusively Jewish. The ceremonial, the social, and the political laws delivered to Moses when he was in secret council with God on the mount were for Israel; but the moral law, spoken in awful grandeur from the smoking mount, in the hearing of all the people, and written on the tables of stone, was for all men who should live upon the earth till the close of time. {Lt35a-1877 1.21}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: kland] #177839
11/07/15 07:33 PM
11/07/15 07:33 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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Posts: 4,583
USA
Originally Posted By: kland

This ordinance does not speak so largely to man's intellectual capacity as to his heart. His moral and spiritual nature needs it. If his disciples had not needed this, it would not have been left for them as Christ's last established ordinance in connection with, and including, the last supper. It was Christ's desire to leave to his disciples an ordinance that would do for them the very thing they needed,--that would serve to disentangle them from the rites and ceremonies which they had hitherto engaged in as essential, and which the reception of the gospel made no longer of any force. To continue these rites would be an insult to Jehovah. Eating of the body, and drinking of the blood, of Christ, not merely at the sacramental service, but daily partaking of the bread of life to satisfy the soul's hunger, would be in receiving his word and doing his will. {RH, June 14, 1898 par. 16}


I think it was about 10 years ago the church took the position that observing the feasts is optional, and I think that is a good position. The statement above refers to giving offence to God by blood sacrifices as far as I can see. Ellen White makes some fairly positive statements about holding sacred gatherings like Tabernacles. I don't keep the feasts but I view myself as a brother to anyone who does keep them. In heaven we'll be keeping the New Moons right along with the Sabbaths. Is 66.

Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #177845
11/08/15 01:51 AM
11/08/15 01:51 AM
dedication  Online Content
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For the OP
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne

The following statement is from the website of Stephen Jones:

"The Saturday Sabbath, as I showed, was based upon Passover. The Sunday Sabbath was based upon the presentation of the Son to the Father, followed by Pentecost."

Is this belief supported by the Bible?


No.

The Saturday 7th day Sabbath comes from Creation on a continuous seven day cycle and runs totally independent of any feast "Sabbaths".

The concept of the "lunar Sabbaths" idea (a strange new idea rather recently presented to Adventists) is drawn from the Passover concept. So one would FIRST have to dislocate the Sabbath from God's ordained continuous seven day weekly cycle of creation, and adapt it to the lunar Sabbaths. This of course messes up the recurring Saturday connection as well.
Passover was actually first introduced to Israel as a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt.
Passover "Sabbath" was not set on Saturday, but every year would fall on a different week day.

Biblical months are based on the moon, and they begin at the first appearance of the visible crescent new moon. To connect the 7th day Sabbath to Passover "Sabbath", the contention is -- since Passover Sabbath is counted from the new moon, so should the weekly Sabbaths. Thus, according to their reasoning, Sabbaths should coincide with these feast Sabbaths fall on the 8th, , 15th , 22nd, 29th day of each lunar month. The seven day cycle then needing adjustment at the end of each month.

This of course is NOT Biblical.
Consider how the manna was regularly provided each week. When Israel was in the wilderness Exodus plainly teaches that the manna fell for six days, with a double portion falling on the sixth day because none would fall on the seventh-day Sabbath. This went on continuously for 40 years, Exodus 16:35.
Nothing is said about a big interruption of this weekly manna cycle every fourth week by a couple of additional days at the end of the month when the new moon resets the week.


THUS -- the first part of your question is answered --
NO -- Saturday Sabbaths were not set by any lunar, or feast, or Passover day precedents. The Saturday Sabbaths follow a seven day, weekly pattern totally independent of feast days, or moon phases.



The second part of the question is built on the first part, thus already it is unsustainable.
For the seven day continuous weekly cycle, whether it is Saturday the seventh day, or Sunday the first day, runs totally independent of the feast days or moon phases.

The 7th day Sabbath does NOT shift from one feast day to another.






Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #177878
11/09/15 02:19 AM
11/09/15 02:19 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,197
Alberta, Canada
Excellent response, dedication!
Thank-you.


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
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