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Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #177966
11/11/15 10:07 PM
11/11/15 10:07 PM
APL  Offline
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Active Member 2020

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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: elle
Your silence obviously says the answer is no -- thus the law is the whole Pentateuch which includes Feasts Sabbaths, yearly Sabbath, and the Jubilee Sabbath. We are to understand the Sabbath with the whole law not just a narrow portion of it.
You believe everyone will be saved, so what does any of the Bible matter to you? Are you afraid of loosing your pavement, I mean gold?

There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Colossians 2:14. But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible--"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages. {PP 365.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #177970
11/11/15 11:15 PM
11/11/15 11:15 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
Since, Passover commemorates the firstborn of Israel being saved from death in Egypt, it is difficult to fathom how such a feast could exist before humanity sinned?

Doesn't the Bible tell us that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the earth? Doesn't this show that the Lord had a plan already in place before He created Man?

Just because it was given to Moses very explicitly and was commanded to write these down (as opposed to the pre-passing down verbally the knowledge of the Lord to their children)...doesn't mean that the law didn’t exist previously to Moses.

We read in Exodus 18:20 (before the 10Cs and judgments were given) that Moses was already teaching the people the Lord’s laws, and ordinances. “AV Ex 18:20 “And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.” So Moses already had some pre-knowledge of some laws and judgments before the Sinai event in Exodus 19-23.

If we are to do a study, we would see the Lord applying laws and judgments throughout history before the Exodus.

It is true that the Lord commanded Israel to keep the Passover that commemorated the Exodus, but there were sacrifices before the Exodus that pointed forward to Christ's death(=passover).

At the Exodus it was a corporate(the Church in the Wilderness) Passover experience; whereas before the Exodus individuals like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had experienced personally and gone thru the Passover(spiritual birth), Pentecost(hearing the Lord's voice and learning obedience), and the Tabernacle(overcame, ceased their own words and entered the Lord's rest) experience.

Also other sacrificial services and rituals were practiced by the Patriarch before the laws was given.

My understanding is all the laws(Pentateuch) describes the ways of the Lord (His character) -- Isn't He the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? It beats me how anyone in our Church would believe that the law only existed after the Exodus????


Blessings
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: APL] #178003
11/12/15 10:52 PM
11/12/15 10:52 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Elle, there were sacrifices after the Exodus that pointed forward to Christ's death which was NOT Passover.

Originally Posted By: Elle
My understanding is all the laws(Pentateuch) describes the ways of the Lord (His character) -- Isn't He the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? It beats me how anyone in our Church would believe that the law only existed after the Exodus????

Could this be why?
There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Colossians 2:14. But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible--"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages. {PP 365.1}

And that's why you wish to deny her?

Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: Elle] #178029
11/14/15 08:04 AM
11/14/15 08:04 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline OP
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Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
Since, Passover commemorates the firstborn of Israel being saved from death in Egypt, it is difficult to fathom how such a feast could exist before humanity sinned?

Doesn't the Bible tell us that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the earth? Doesn't this show that the Lord had a plan already in place before He created Man?

Just because it was given to Moses very explicitly and was commanded to write these down (as opposed to the pre-passing down verbally the knowledge of the Lord to their children)...doesn't mean that the law didn’t exist previously to Moses.

We read in Exodus 18:20 (before the 10Cs and judgments were given) that Moses was already teaching the people the Lord’s laws, and ordinances. “AV Ex 18:20 “And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.” So Moses already had some pre-knowledge of some laws and judgments before the Sinai event in Exodus 19-23.

If we are to do a study, we would see the Lord applying laws and judgments throughout history before the Exodus.

It is true that the Lord commanded Israel to keep the Passover that commemorated the Exodus, but there were sacrifices before the Exodus that pointed forward to Christ's death(=passover).

At the Exodus it was a corporate(the Church in the Wilderness) Passover experience; whereas before the Exodus individuals like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had experienced personally and gone thru the Passover(spiritual birth), Pentecost(hearing the Lord's voice and learning obedience), and the Tabernacle(overcame, ceased their own words and entered the Lord's rest) experience.

Also other sacrificial services and rituals were practiced by the Patriarch before the laws was given.

My understanding is all the laws(Pentateuch) describes the ways of the Lord (His character) -- Isn't He the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? It beats me how anyone in our Church would believe that the law only existed after the Exodus????




Elle, that is quite the strawman argument you have constructed.
Jesus is indeed "the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world."
God's foreknowledge of the need for a sacrifice for sin hardly equates to Passover
being instituted in Eden!

In any case, how exactly does the existence of ceremonial, civil, or any other law previous to Moses, alter or negate the Ten Commandments?

Let's look at a few facts that show how God views His Ten Commandments as opposed to the ceremonial laws:

The Ten Commandments - Written by the finger of God TWICE!

The Ceremonial Law - Written by Moses once.

The Ten Commandments - Placed inside of the Ark of the Covenant!

The Ceremonial Law - Placed on the outside of the Ark of the Covenant.

The Ten Commandments - Rested directly beneath the Mercy Seat, the very foundation of the Throne of God!

The Ceremonial Law - Rested on the outside of the Mercy Seat, beside the Throne of God.

The Ten Commandments - never to be destroyed, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from. Matthew 5: 17-18


The Ceremonial Law - Handwriting of ordinances blotted out and nailed to the Cross. Colossians 2:14


The Bible is absolutely clear. God considers His Ten Commandments to be holy and separate, the measure of His eternal character, the very foundation of His throne.

There can be no meaningful comparison between the two. The ceremonial laws are merely a means of dealing with the transgression of humanity against God's sacred Ten Commandments. To suggest that the shadow changes the substance is ridiculous.




"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: kland] #178051
11/14/15 06:13 PM
11/14/15 06:13 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, there were sacrifices after the Exodus that pointed forward to Christ's death which was NOT Passover.

Originally Posted By: Elle
My understanding is all the laws(Pentateuch) describes the ways of the Lord (His character) -- Isn't He the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? It beats me how anyone in our Church would believe that the law only existed after the Exodus????

Could this be why?
There are many who try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished; but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The distinction between the two systems is broad and clear. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and His priesthood. This ritual law, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ "took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Colossians 2:14. But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, "Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. . . . Verily I say unto you"--making the assertion as emphatic as possible--"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches, not merely what the claims of God's law had been, and were then, but that these claims should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain. The law of God is as immutable as His throne. It will maintain its claims upon mankind in all ages. {PP 365.1}

And that's why you wish to deny her?
I do agree with the above that we shouldn’t be sacrificing animals today and those were types and shadows.

As I said many times to you in the past, we are the BODY of Christ and we are to follow His steps to the cross too and become “living sacrifices” as He was and “die” too. Paul even said we are to “die” daily.

I agree Jesus was the “anti-type” but it doesn’t stop there and he’s not the only “anti-type”. What was fulfilled by Jesus was the fulfillment of the HEAD part.

The fulfillment of the sacrificial laws needs to be also fulfilled in His BODY part too --- which is US His Church -- The “anti-type” of what all the sacrificial services is pointing to still needs to be fulfilled in US.

---->Every time someone since Adam’s fall till today, who accepts Jesus(=circumcised), gets out of “Mama Egypt”(=bondage of sin), and are baptized(=dies), is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Passover.

---->Every time someone since Adams till today, who listen to the Holy Spirit and receives His teachings and gets the law written on his HEART instead of having it outside on STONES is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Pentecost.

---->Every time someone since Adam’s fall till today, overcome and cease their own works, is fulfilling the “anti-type” of Tabernacle.


Blessings
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #178053
11/14/15 06:41 PM
11/14/15 06:41 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
Since, Passover commemorates the firstborn of Israel being saved from death in Egypt, it is difficult to fathom how such a feast could exist before humanity sinned?

Doesn't the Bible tell us that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the earth? Doesn't this show that the Lord had a plan already in place before He created Man?

Just because it was given to Moses very explicitly and was commanded to write these down (as opposed to the pre-passing down verbally the knowledge of the Lord to their children)...doesn't mean that the law didn’t exist previously to Moses.

We read in Exodus 18:20 (before the 10Cs and judgments were given) that Moses was already teaching the people the Lord’s laws, and ordinances. “AV Ex 18:20 “And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.” So Moses already had some pre-knowledge of some laws and judgments before the Sinai event in Exodus 19-23.

If we are to do a study, we would see the Lord applying laws and judgments throughout history before the Exodus.

It is true that the Lord commanded Israel to keep the Passover that commemorated the Exodus, but there were sacrifices before the Exodus that pointed forward to Christ's death(=passover).

At the Exodus it was a corporate(the Church in the Wilderness) Passover experience; whereas before the Exodus individuals like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had experienced personally and gone thru the Passover(spiritual birth), Pentecost(hearing the Lord's voice and learning obedience), and the Tabernacle(overcame, ceased their own words and entered the Lord's rest) experience.

Also other sacrificial services and rituals were practiced by the Patriarch before the laws was given.

My understanding is all the laws(Pentateuch) describes the ways of the Lord (His character) -- Isn't He the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? It beats me how anyone in our Church would believe that the law only existed after the Exodus????




Elle, that is quite the strawman argument you have constructed.
Jesus is indeed "the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world."
God's foreknowledge of the need for a sacrifice for sin hardly equates to Passover
being instituted in Eden!

In any case, how exactly does the existence of ceremonial, civil, or any other law previous to Moses, alter or negate the Ten Commandments?

Let's look at a few facts that show how God views His Ten Commandments as opposed to the ceremonial laws:

The Ten Commandments - Written by the finger of God TWICE!

The Ceremonial Law - Written by Moses once.

The Ten Commandments - Placed inside of the Ark of the Covenant!

The Ceremonial Law - Placed on the outside of the Ark of the Covenant.

The Ten Commandments - Rested directly beneath the Mercy Seat, the very foundation of the Throne of God!

The Ceremonial Law - Rested on the outside of the Mercy Seat, beside the Throne of God.

The Ten Commandments - never to be destroyed, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from. Matthew 5: 17-18


The Ceremonial Law - Handwriting of ordinances blotted out and nailed to the Cross. Colossians 2:14


The Bible is absolutely clear. God considers His Ten Commandments to be holy and separate, the measure of His eternal character, the very foundation of His throne.

There can be no meaningful comparison between the two. The ceremonial laws are merely a means of dealing with the transgression of humanity against God's sacred Ten Commandments. To suggest that the shadow changes the substance is ridiculous.



There’s too much to address up there. But simply said, ask yourself the same question I asked APL – do you believe it is ok to break the political and social laws given outside of the 10Cs?

Concerning your proof text to say that the ceremonial laws and other laws are nail to the cross with Col 2:14, read below what I replied to Rosangela.
===============================================================================
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: Elle
I don't believe that any laws are nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

What "ordinances" were nailed to the cross?


I don't think this is saying that the law was nail to the cross, but instead the decree that was issued against us because we transgressed the law. The law is necessary for teaching purposes and to show us our sins and how far we are from the Lord's perfect righteousness.

Paul also said this about the cross : God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; (2col 5:18). I now see Col 2:14 saying what 2cor 5:18 says of not imputing our tresspasses by cancelling the charge or decree that was against us.

Here's many other translations that suggest this understanding:

Quote:
New International Version
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

New Living Translation
He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.

English Standard Version
by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

New American Standard Bible
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.

International Standard Version
having erased the charges that were brought against us, along with their obligations that were hostile to us. He took those charges away when he nailed them to the cross.

NET Bible
He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he has blotted out by his authority the bill of our debts which was adverse to us and he took it from the midst and nailed it to his cross.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did this by erasing the charges that were brought against us by the written laws God had established. He took the charges away by nailing them to the cross.

Jubilee Bible 2000
blotting out the bill of the decrees that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross {Gr. stauro – stake},

American Standard Version
having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross:

Weymouth New Testament
The bond, with its requirements, which was in force against us and was hostile to us, He cancelled, and cleared it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross.


Blessings
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #178068
11/15/15 03:32 AM
11/15/15 03:32 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,663
Canada
Elle wrote: But simply said, ask yourself the same question I asked APL – do you believe it is ok to break the political and social laws given outside of the 10Cs?
----

The literal political laws, no we do not follow them.
The principles behind those laws -- yes they are still valid.

The social laws? If they are of moral type, yes they are to be followed for they magnify God's moral law.

Many however, are more culturally related, and while their principle still holds, they are no longer followed to the letter. (Example --Unclean laws requiring sometimes weeks of isolation especially for women) The necessity for personal hygiene and home cleanliness is the principle to be maintained.

The suspected unfaithfulness of a wife having to drink water mixed with temple dust -- Such laws were a protection for women in a male dominated society so God could protect falsely accused wives from obnoxious husbands. I don't think anyone follows that any more-- especially as there is no temple dust around.


Political laws
Israel was a sacral society -- a theocracy.

Since NT times there has been no Divine theocracy society or country. Thus those laws are no longer in force, though the principles behind those laws are still valid.

We follow the social and political laws of the nation under which we live as long as they do not violate God's moral law.

We do NOT stone people who curse God, commit adultery, or break the Sabbath. Though the principle still holds that those who do not repent of these and other sins will suffer eternal death.

People who have skin problems (possible leprous) don't go to the priest, nor are they cast out to live in caves away from society. Instead they go to a doctor and receive treatment.
Though the principle of limiting the exposure of the healthy to infectious disease still holds.

Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: Elle] #178070
11/15/15 03:43 AM
11/15/15 03:43 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,663
Canada
What was nailed to the cross?

I tend to agree with Elle that it was our sins.
The whole context of Col. 2:14 indicates it was our sins that were nailed to cross, not law.

2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
2:14 Blotting out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

However, also in the context is the thought of the "obligations" those sins imposed -- which was the obligation to slay a sacrificial substitute. Christ was that substitute that took away our sins, thus the sacrificial system ended and with it all the ceremonial things that were part of those sacrifices.

Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #178090
11/15/15 09:24 AM
11/15/15 09:24 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline OP
SDA
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Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,197
Alberta, Canada

Nicely stated, dedication!

I would add that the tearing of the Temple veil from top to bottom (Mark 15:38) is a pretty good indication that the Father considered the sacrificial system over when type met anti type at the offering of the Lamb of God.


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Sabbath Law According To Stephen Jones [Re: ProdigalOne] #178091
11/15/15 09:45 AM
11/15/15 09:45 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,197
Alberta, Canada


Elle said:

"There’s too much to address up there. But simply said, ask yourself the same question I asked APL – do you believe it is ok to break the political and social laws given outside of the 10Cs?"


Dedication has more than adequately answered you on this point.

My question is, what difference does it make? Whether I believe it is ok to break the political and social laws or not has absolutely no bearing on the requirement that the Moral Law of God's Ten Commandments is to be obeyed.

Breaking God's Ten Commandments is the definition sin. That definition can never be changed, what was sin yesterday is sin today and will remain sin tomorrow.

The Fourth Commandment can never be changed, no matter how many new moons or feasts you may celebrate. The Sabbath remains every Seventh Day, just as Jesus kept it, just as the Jews have continued to keep it, just as Ellen White kept it, just as God wrote it twice in solid stone with His own hand.


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
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