Dedication - God has nothing to do with the end of sinners? Is that what I said? Nope. Read AGAIN - Great Controversy chapter 1 and particularly pages 35-37. Read again Desire of Ages page 22. Read again Desire of Ages chapter 79 - It Is Finished. What is the inevitable results of Sin? How is God involved?

Read again Signs of the Times, April 14, 1898. What is the wrath of God? What is the sure consequences of sin? And how is God involved? Did God actively execute His Son? NO. And what is the fire that destroys the sinner? Read the whole article!

You are totally confusing. You've made a shrine out of GC 36 and twist every other passage to fit your interpretation of that page.

Yes, God put all mankind's sin on His Son, and Christ felt God's utter hatred of sin and being severed from His presence, due to God's displeasure of sin, and that killed Him.
It wasn't the sin itself, the nails and torture that killed Him -- it was the emotional anguish. He died of a broken heart, it was too much to bear and live.

The rebellious ones in the end won't die of a broken heart, they were ready to take the city by force if allowed. They won't be allowed, they will be shown how that their punishment is fair and square, and they are without excuse. Then fire comes out of heaven and totally removes all traces of sin from the earth -- including those who cling to sin.

The fire at the second death--is a real fire of gigantic proportions which
causes all the elements to melt and dissolves everything on earth and its atmosphere (everything except the Holy City)

2 Peter 3
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.... the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Now to Elle's position on Isaiah 45:23 and the added word "allegiance".


Yes, there is the fourth option:

d)to admit the person in authority is right, and submit to one's punishment as just, though the heart still hates the fact that they lost.

Sort of like a drug dealer who is hauled into court for giving drugs to a child who overdoes and dies. After being fairly and squarely found guilty and hearing the verdict against himself, he bows in submission that the court is right and his punishment just, he is without excuse, but the first chance he gets he's going deal in drugs again, there is no allegiance whatsoever.

Recognizing and bowing to justice does not mean a change of heart or giving allegiance. It simply means being caught fairly and squarely in rebellion with no excuse, and the only option is to bow in submission to the punishment.

And you ignore the truth that is points out. Why? Because it destroys your beliefs? And did you ignore the other quotations? Why?

Did Christ die the death of a sinner or not? Apparently you say no. It is more remarkable that you say sin did not kill Christ. It is more remarkable that you say God killed Christ. That is probably the most hideous thing one can believe. Oh that you could see God as revealed by His Son.

Ellen White wrote;

"Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}"

The wicked bring the destruction of God upon themselves, this is true. But, they don't destroy themselves as some want to make it out to be! This is the same as Saul brought destruction upon himself by falling on the his sword, but, in the end it was God who killed Saul!

The way these passages and EGW statements are being interpreted is not Biblical in trying to say God does not destroy the wicked.

As far as sin is concerned. Jesus died for our sin, true! But, could sin actually kill the Son of God? No. Our God is alive forevermore. Jesus gave His fallen human flesh, but, not His divine life.

The whole question still hinges on how we define
THE SECOND DEATH



With that comes the question as to what is the "lake of fire".

THE LAKE OF FIRE

Elle says, "at the Great White throne judgment (aka execution of the pronounced judgment = the lake of fire); that's when they "will learn righteousness" Is 26:9."
In other words that's when they learn they still have to learn righteousness and proceed on to being taught it by those who have already learned it.

APL isn't that clear on this point. Just quotes passages that supposedly answer things, but don't directly address the issue. But he seems to be saying the "fire" is the "light of truth" when finally realized by unrepentant sinners causes them to kill themselves and each other.
His definition is closer to Elle, whose definition also sees the "fire" more as "the light of truth" but she says it leads people to finally learn that truth and die her version of the second death and be saved.

GENERAL ADVENTIST UNDERSTANDING:
The fire at the second death--is a real, literal fire of gigantic proportions which
causes all the elements to melt and dissolves everything on earth and its atmosphere (everything except the Holy City)
And put a final and complete end to all sin, purifying the earth.

2 Peter 3
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.... the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.






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Not clear? Really... Did you do your homework? Did you READ the references quoted? NOPE. For it you had, it would be clear. Well, maybe not because you may choose to continue to be blind.

Elle - Second death is life.

Dedication - second death is execution by God.

Truth - Second death is the consequences of sin. (Did you read the homework?)

If you believe that Christ was executed by God, then yeah, but Christ was not executed by God. "Christ was slain by the sin of the world." Slain by, not for.

Under Elle's belief, you don't have to believe or do anything. (And gold is what you really want!)

Under Dedication's believe, you better be afraid of God, love Him, or He will kill you! That has real drawing power! - NOT

True - The kindness of God draws to repentance. If you reject God, there is nothing else He can do, but let you go, that is His wrath. (See Romans 1 and 2)

Your position at least was stated clearly in the following:
APL wrote: ". "Christ was slain by the sin of the world. Slain by, not for."

And that is the very ROOT of all APL's strange teachings.
He denies the sacrificial atonement for our sins, of Jesus Christ upon the cross.

Yet that is the greatest drawing love there is.
When God, Our Creator, Himself takes our sins, our guilt, our punishment so all who believe may receive grace and be released from the penalty of the law, and raised to newness of life.

Not so. I said the second death is a SPIRITUAL DEATH. The DEATH of the OLD MAN that needs to be nailed to the CROSS with Christ. This death we need to DIE daily when we submit to the Lord's will and not to the voice of our own minds.

As we die this death with Christ on the cross, then we too will resurrect as He did in His appointed time. Life comes later with the Resurrection. First we need to DIE the 2nd death several times before receiving that life eternal.

That's what I understand the Bible teaches.



I would disagree with that. When Adam had not sinned yet and before he committed that sin; death(the 1st death -- the physical literal death) came to this world because he failed to died that 2nd death.

So Adam should of died that 2nd death before sin came. Sin come as a result of failing to die the 2nd death because the 2nd death is the death of our own will and a submission to the will of the Lord.

Christ who sinned not had to die the 2nd death at the garden of Getsemanne when He submitted His will to the Father's. He also died the 2nd death when He got baptized and accepted the Father's plan for Him which He knew then that would lead Him to the cross.


You don't have to belief? Or do anything? Where did you get that? -- not from me.

On the contrary, to do the will of God according to Paul in Rom 10:17 "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word[rhema, utterance] of God" I've always been saying for years that without hearing you cannot be in obedience to the will of God -- thus you won't pass thru that narrow gate that Asygo brought up -- thus you will need to be destroyed and get back on the path to life.

Shema is the same Hebrew word for "to hear" or "to obey". Basically, hearing and obeying is the same word and can be used interchangably in Hebrew. You cannot obey without hearing or vice versa.

So it seems in this forum, no person is interested in learning to hear the utterance of God. Maybe you think their's no need because Ellen White already did all the hearing for us. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. It didn't work that way with the Israelites who relied on Moses to hear for them (Ex 20:19) for they were too afraid to hear the Lord for themself. Why? because when we hear the voice of God it burns the "flesh"(represents our carnality) and they were AFRAID to DIE the 2nd death. So they begged Moses to hear for them for they didn't want to die and yet live.

The 2nd death is not a rose garden. And YES you need to do what the Lord tells you. If you don't, well, you will get corrected and then you will hear again and it will hurt the "flesh" again. The purpose to hear(=obey) properly and accurately is to teach us His laws; and once it is learned perfectly then it gets written in our heart tablets. Without hearing, the laws of God cannot be written inside of you.

NO ONE can come to OBEDIENCE without hearing the voice of God and without dying the 2nd death.

The 2nd death is symbolized as the lake of fire where we get baptized by the Fire(words) of the Holy Spirit. That fire before it was a lake; it started from the throne of God by which Daniel saw as fire. Daniel also saw a river of fire coming out of God's throne. This is because the throne of God represents where the law comes from. That where the Lord will judge all the works of the dead according to His laws. That judgment("the fiery law" Deut 33:2) that proceeded out of the throne -- from the right hand" of God Deut 33:2 via "His saints[the overcomers that resurrected at 1st resurrection and ruled with Christ for 1000 years] are in his hand" (Deut 33:3)] . That fiery law that proceeded out of the throne John saw it become a lake of fire. It was a symbolic picture representing which I currently call "the execution of the judgment pronounced" as the judges equated the sins to a debt(restitution) depending on the lawless works committed.

Restitution is what the judgments laws teaches. The law of Jubilee is the context the payments of that debt is going to be process. Jesus and the overcomers are not going to judge contrary to God's own law and oversee the execution of the court judgment outside of the context of the law of Jubilee.

All of you guys that believe in a literal Hell fire as the 2nd death; you have equated all of God's judgment as one single penalty -- passing His children into a LITERAL FIRE that scripture is very clear that this has not passed in God's own mind and it was the way of MOLECH. (read Jer 19:5; Jer 32:35) This is far from being the Lord's way. Nor is this penalty serving any JUSTICE because it is contrary to the law.

So "justice" is forcing everyone to acknowledge God's authority, according to Elle's version.

If you don't keep God's law the first lifetime, then in your second lifetime, judgment is executed in some way to twist your arm into "learning" to keep God's law, but if you don't learn, more judges execute judgment and confine you to more painful "learning", this can go on for thousands, even millions of years, till they finally break you into "knowing" God's law.
Sounds like extensive brain washing to me, not a love response to a Savior Who gave His life that we might have eternal life.

Nor does it sound like
Rev. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Sounds more like there will be millions of years yet with lots of tears, sorrow, crying, pain, and Elle's version of "dying" according to Elle.

Indeed -- under Elle's belief, it really doesn't matter what you believe now. A person has all of eternity to rebel if that's what they want to do -- till they are too tired and broken down by all the judges, to rebel and resist anymore and finally agree to comply with God's law.

Sounds more like purgatory-- a slow burning "fire" to torture you into submission. It actually fits more to the pagan ideas.

The final destruction is not a "passing through fire" like the convoluted molch ceremonies.
It is not an "appeasement" exercise to win a god's favor.


It is a literal fire that literally cleanses the earth and gets rid of all the literal junk and wreckage that litters the earth and outer space around the earth. It totally and completely gets rid of all traces and signs of sin, and the only reason people are consumed in it as well is because they refused to come into the "ark of safety" while the door was still open --that ark of safety is fully and freely accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior and our righteousness.

Those who are in God's city at the time of earth's cleansing are those who WANT to be with Our Redeemer and who LOVE to serve and obey Him.

Those who have chosen to persist in rebellion would be most miserable in heaven -- indeed they couldn't stand being in the holy presence of God. God will never force anyone to obey Him.
We have this life, to live in sin if we so chose and be slaves to sin, and value the dubious and fleeting pleasures of a short life of sin in exchange for eternity, or we can chose to find wonderful freedom and righteousness in Christ Who offers us an abiding joy, peace, goodness, faith and eternal life with Him -- an eternity without pain, tears, sorrow, dying, or crying.


The choice is ours -- NOW.
Today is the day of salvation.
Today chose whom you will serve.