When God gives instructions through His prophets, you follow them.

Much closer to our time, God has given us instructions, and we should also follow them.

With this in mind, therefore, what instructions has God given us about this through Ellen G. White?

I acctually found a writing of EW that describes both how too many SDA churches today are and how they are supposed to be. This speaks for itself...

/Thomas

quote:

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It Calls for a Joyful Praise

Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. Phil. 4:4.
Pray, pray earnestly and without ceasing, but do not forget to praise. It becomes every child of God to vindicate His character. You can magnify the Lord; you can show the power of sustaining grace. There are multitudes who do not appreciate the great love of God nor the divine compassion of Jesus. Thousands even regard with disdain the matchless grace shown in the plan of redemption. All who are partakers of this great salvation are not clear in this matter. They do not cultivate grateful hearts. But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Is it not worthy of careful thought and study now? Should we not praise God with heart and soul and voice "for His wonderful works to the children of men" (Ps. 107:8)? {YRP 334.1}
Praise the Lord in the congregation of His people. When the word of the Lord was spoken to the Hebrews anciently, the command was: "And let all the people say, Amen" (Ps. 106:48). When the ark of the covenant was brought into the city of David, and a psalm of joy and triumph was chanted, "all the people said, Amen, and praised the Lord" (1 Chron. 16:36). This fervent response was an evidence that they understood the word spoken and joined in the worship of God. {YRP 334.2}
There is too much formality in our religious services. The Lord would have His ministers who preach the Word energized by His Holy Spirit; and the people who hear should not sit in drowsy indifference, or stare vacantly about, making no responses to what is said. The impression that is thus given to the unbeliever is anything but favorable for the religion of Christ. These dull, careless professed Christians are not destitute of ambition and zeal when engaged in worldly business; but things of eternal importance do not move them deeply. The voice of God through His messengers may be a pleasant song; but its sacred warnings, reproofs, and encouragements are all unheeded. The Spirit of the world has paralyzed them. The truths of God's Word are spoken to leaden ears and hard, unimpressible hearts. There should be wide-awake, active churches to encourage and uphold the ministers of Christ and to aid them in the work of saving souls. Where the church is walking in the light, there will ever be cheerful, hearty responses and words of joyful praise.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 317, 318. {YRP 334.3}
334

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What is morally wrong with having a celebration “style” worship service?

Well to be honest, we need to make a distinction here; we are not referring to worship, we are referring to PRAISE. Worship and praise are two different things.

Worship is how we show our adoration and love for God. It is usually done in a very solemn and thoughtful manner.

Praise is how we express our joy about God and what he has done for us.

It seems that SDA’s clearly understand worship, but have a poor understanding of praise. However, EGW understood both.

There are historical documents regarding the early SDA church services and they were anything but tame. In fact, many times neighbors who lived by the church or home that the meeting was being held would contact the police because of the noise.

The early SDA church was very much charismatic in relation to praise and was not afraid to shout, jump, dance, and sign praises to God. That is what happens when the spirit is alive and well in a praise service.

I’m not sure how those very expressive meetings became to be what is seen now in most SDA churches. But that is not how the movement started, and what the "celebration movement" is an attempting to bring back.


It seems that many have issues with the musical style involved in the celebration or praise services, but that is a human or personal issue of preference and not a moral issue.

The fact is that the early church took popular songs of their day and made them into songs of praise for God. They took the melodies and added Christian lyrics. We sing these same songs today, almost 200 years later and act as if they are more holy than contemporary music. This idea was false in the 1800’s and is false today.

It is even humorous how we hold up those old songs as being holy when some of the melodies were actually taken from songs that were song in bars and other gaming type establishments.

Music is a vehicle to reach one's heart. God knows this and that is why he invented it, to reach our hearts. The problem is that not all musical style reaches all people. So a song from the 1800’s may reach some one who likes that kind of music and can relate to it, but it will not reach those who don’t relate to it. The fact is that most people respond to music that they grew up with. Music that holds emotional significance.

The early SDA church knew this and that is why they put Christian lyrics to popular songs of their day – so people could relate. Somehow we have lost that lesson.


In any case, the music used for praise should be one that reaches your heart, makes you feel deeply and convicted. And if that 200 year old melody is not doing that, then you need to go where you can hear the kind of music that reaches your heart.

Thomas, who says that just because we Praise the Lord with beautiful hymns we are being DULL or BORING or in "drowsy indifference" ?

I agree totally with your EGW quotes. I have said it previously and will say it again. The church service is NOT to be like a funeral, formal or dry. It is to be vibrant and happy with praise to the Lord. It can be done with the beautiful hymns. BUT the Lord will not be pleased with music that is noisy and with worldly sounds to it. If you don't believe me, read 2 SM p. 36 again.

Lobo, I completely disagree with you about the church in Ellen White's day. Do you have any references to back up what you seem to know? Please give us the name and page number of the "historical documents" where you got your information.

God is not to be trifled with. He has outlined what He expects in his Sanctuary. He is a HOLY God and we are sinful beings. How dare we think that we can be noisy, "shout, jump and dance" in church and please God. Those who believe this are deluded by the devil. We are told that satan will deceive the "very elect" through the senses: tasting/touching/hearing/seeing/smelling. The only sure thing we can go by when our senses tell us differently is the WORD OF GOD and the SOP.

You better study this out again because you are wrong.

Actually there is no such indication nor is there any evidence that it is the Holy Spirit that will make you want to jump, dance, shout and all sorts of irreverant acitivities in a church. Sister White tells us the following:

quote:

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Popular revivals are too often carried by appeals to the imagination, by exciting the emotions, by gratifying the love for what is new and startling. Converts thus gained have little desire to listen to Bible truth, little interest in the testimony of prophets and apostles. Unless a religious service has something of a sensational character, it has no attractions for them. A message which appeals to unimpassioned reason, awakens no response. The plain warnings of God's Word, relating directly to their eternal interests, are unheeded. {GC88 463.2}

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quote:

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In many of the revivals which have occurred during the last half century, the same influences have been at work, to a greater or less degree, that will be manifest in the more extensive movements of the future. There is an emotional excitement, a mingling of the true with the false, that is well adapted to mislead. Yet none need be deceived. In the light of God's Word it is not difficult to determine the nature of these movements. Wherever men neglect the testimony of the Bible, turning away from those plain, soul-testing truths which require self-denial and renunciation of the world, there we may be sure that God's blessing is not bestowed. And by the rule which Christ himself has given, "Ye shall know them by their fruits," [MATT. 7:16.] it is evident that these movements are not the work of the Spirit of God.{GC88 464.2}

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Cut out the shows at church and you will find those who have an earnest desire to worship God in Truth and in Spirit.

God Bless,
Will

Debbie, No thats not what I am saying, what I am saying is that too many churches are NOT praising the Lord with the hymns they sing. Of course there are other churches that are praising the Lord with hymns and yet others who are praising the Lord with songs that arent hymns.
Another question I have is, does "dancing" in praise to the Lord seem about as foolish as attacking an enemy army camp with trumpets and clay pots or like laying siege to a well fortified city by walking around it singing?

/Thomas

Hos 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Am 5: 21 "I hate, I despise your religious feasts;
I cannot stand your assemblies.
22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
I will have no regard for them.
23 Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.
24 But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!

Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD .

Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD .

Praise the LORD .

Psalm 149
1 Praise the LORD .

Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the saints.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.
3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with tambourine and harp.
4 For the LORD takes delight in his people;
he crowns the humble with salvation.
5 Let the saints rejoice in this honor
and sing for joy on their beds.

Yes, Lobo, I, like Debbie, also want to see the documentation to back up what you said.

And Thomas,

quote:

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Psalm 150:4 praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,

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I think we need to know what type of dancing the Bible was referring to back then, therefore, let us see if we can find out anything about that somewhere.

Daryl,

Let's face it. No matter how anyone tries to define or describe dance as it is used in scripture someone will have a problem with it still. Among those voicing opposition to contemporary worship there always seems to be someone who reacts very strongly against any physical response to music (or any music that encourages or prompts it), particularly of a rhythmic nature, be it foot movement, toe tapping, hand clapping, gestures, raising or waiving hands, swaying, bobbing ones head or especially bodily movement that would actually result in the incorporation of any compination of these, all of which by defintion would be dancing.

My dictionary defines dance as "To move rhythmically, usu. to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures...To leap or skip about excitedly...To bob up and down... To perform..." I don't think the many scriptural references to dance and dancing are at all inconsistent with that definition, nor is there any real ambiguity in what is meant in Scripture, except in the minds of those uncomfortable with any physical response to music. Some people are genuinely uncomfortable and very self-conscious with any excitement, emotional response or physical response to music, religious or otherwise. However, that does not make it a moral issue as some seem inclined to do by slapping a label of "sinful" "of the devil" or any similar inflammatory and pejorative term.

Tom

Ok Daryl and Debbie,

Here is what I was referring to:

Ellen attended one meeting where the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace, see (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 pages 40-41). Yet Ellen stated about this very service that "the power of God" was there (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 page 40).


Here are few quotes from EGW and how she feels worship services should be conducted:

"I saw, that singing to the glory of God often drove away the enemy, and shouting would beat him back and give us the victory" (Letter 8a, 1850).

Ellen White opposed formal worship services as you all on this forum are advocating. She wrote: "The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted" (Testimonies vol 9 page 143).


She stated; "It is the duty of those connected with the church to feel an individual responsibility to... make the meetings so interesting that outsiders or unbelievers will be attracted to your meetings" (EGW Manuscript 13, 1885 -- Manuscript Releases vol 3 page 1).


She stated; "I saw there was great necessity of more energy being manifested by the commandment keepers in their meetings" (EGW Manuscript 3, 1853 -- Manuscript Releases vol 5 page 424).

In the book Historical Sketches of the Foreign Missions, Ellen White writes favourably about using guitars in church (page 195). She even requested guitar playing before one of her meetings.


So the FACTS are that EGW liked energetic worship services that were loud, had shouting, guitars, and were interesting enough to bring in unbelievers. And yes, the cops were called because of the noise.

Yet again Lobo twists things to suit his agenda, with little regard for the truth.

quote:

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Ellen attended one meeting where the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace, see (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 pages 40-41). Yet Ellen stated about this very service that "the power of God" was there (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 page 40).

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There is absolutely nothing in the passage referenced to indicate that "the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace."

Let's look at more of the passage in question:

"From Exeter we went to Atkinson. One night I was shown something that I did not understand. It was to this effect, that we were to have a trial of our faith. The next day, which was the first day of the week, while I was speaking, two men looked into the window. We were satisfied of their object. They entered and rushed past me to Eld. Damman. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon him, and his strength was taken away, and he fell to the floor helpless. The officer cried out, 'In the name of the State of Maine, lay hold of this man.' Two seized his arms, and two his feet, and attempted to drag him from the room. They would move him a few inches only, and then rush out of the house. The power of God was in that room, and the servants of God with their countenances lighted up with his glory, made no resistance. The efforts to take Eld. D. were often repeated with the same effect. The men could not endure the power of God, and it was a relief to them to rush out of the house. Their number increased to twelve, still Eld. D. was held by the power of God about forty minutes, and not all the strength of those men could move him from the floor where he lay helpless. At the same moment we all felt that Eld. D. must go; that God had manifested his power for his glory, and that the name of the Lord would be further glorified in suffering him to be taken from our midst. And those men took him up as easily as they would take up a child, and carried him out.

"After Eld. D. was taken from our midst he was kept in a hotel, and guarded by a man who did not like his office. He said that Eld. D. was singing, and praying, and praising the Lord all night, so that he could not sleep, and he would not watch over such a man. No one wished the office of guarding him, and he was left to go about the village as he pleased, after promising that he would appear for trial. Kind friends invited him to share their hospitalities. At the hour of trial Eld. D. was present. A lawyer offered his services. The charge brought against Eld. D. was, that he was a disturber of the peace. Many witnesses were brought to sustain the charge, but they were at once broken down by the testimony of Eld. D.'s acquaintances present, who were called to the stand. There was much curiosity to know what Eld. D. and his friends believed, and he was asked to give them a synopsis of his faith. He then told them in a clear manner his belief from the Scriptures. It was also suggested that they sung curious hymns, and he was asked to sing one. There were quite a number of strong brethren present who had stood by him in the trial, and they joined with him in singing, 'When I was down in Egypt's land, I heard my Saviour was at hand,' &c."
{2SG 40,41}

Elder D. was indeed charged with disturbing the peace, but nowhere are we given the reason for these charges. They were trumped up. And nowhere is it said that the "peace was disturbed" due to loud volume. Lobo manufactured that idea.

Then he goes on to try and make another passage mean what it most clearly does not mean:

quote:

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Ellen White opposed formal worship services as you all on this forum are advocating. She wrote: "The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted" (Testimonies vol 9 page 143).

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Let's see what that quote really means:

Formality In Worship. -- "In their efforts to reach the people, the Lord's messengers are not to follow the ways of the world. In the meetings that are held, they are not to depend on worldly singers and theatrical display to awaken an interest. How can those who have no interest in the word of God, who have never read His word with a sincere desire to understand its truths, be expected to sing with the spirit and the understanding? How can their hearts be in harmony with the words of sacred song? How can the heavenly choir join in music that is only a form?

"The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted, [this is the snippet quoted by Lobo] but no words can properly set forth the deep blessedness of genuine worship. When human beings sing with the spirit and the understanding, heavenly musicians take up the strain and join in the song of thanksgiving. He who has bestowed upon us all the gifts that enable us to be workers together with God, expects His servants to cultivate their voices so that they can speak and sing in a way that all can understand. It is not loud singing that is needed, but clear intonation, correct pronunciation, and distinct utterance. Let all take time to cultivate the voice so that God's praise can be sung in clear, soft tones, not with harshness and shrillness that offend the ear. The ability to sing is the gift of God; let it be used to His glory."
{9T 143}

So we see that Lobo is taking things out of context, and trying to use them to support an argument that EGW would oppose. She doesn't use the phrase "formal worship" as he would. "Formal" as used by her means having only a form of the real thing, not the genuine article. As Paul said,

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2 Timothy 3:5

"Formal" as advocated by the majority here is quite in keeping with God's ways, since

"God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
1 Corinthians 14:33

Where guitars are concerned, they're fine when used properly. The ancient temple services had stringed instruments in the music section. We just need to make sure they're being used to play music God can approve, not Jimi Hendrix tunes with 'Christian' lyrics.