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Re: Celebration Church
#33986
04/15/04 09:59 PM
04/15/04 09:59 PM
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quote:
Elder D. was indeed charged with disturbing the peace, but nowhere are we given the reason for these charges. They were trumped up. And nowhere is it said that the "peace was disturbed" due to loud volume. Lobo manufactured that idea.
John, if my “manufactured” idea is that the services were loud and that is why the charges of disturbing the peace were filled, you have also manufactured the idea that the charges were “trumped up”. There is not enough info to determine if the charges were correct or not or if there was any cause to file them.
But from a non-paranoid perspective, why would the police trump up charges on this guy for no reason? Why would they care? You cannot support your own manufactured idea that the charges were bogus until you come up with a motive for doing that by the police.
So the fact is that my assumption is no more manufactured than yours.
As for the other quotes, I noticed you ignored most of them. In addition, you can’t use other sources to define what EGW meant be Formality. That is clearly a feeble effort to support your view.
quote:
Where guitars are concerned, they're fine when used properly. The ancient temple services had stringed instruments in the music section. We just need to make sure they're being used to play music God can approve, not Jimi Hendrix tunes with 'Christian' lyrics.
And how do you know what God would or would not approve in the way of music? Aside from lyrics, on what basis do you determine what is good music and what is not? How can musical style be seen as anything more than individual preference?
Your self-righteous statements here demonstrate the very reason why the SDA church is loosing members in North America.
Music is a tool that can be used for God or used for the devil. Fortunately, most Christian denominations understand that and they are winning souls for God left and right because they don’t confuse their individual preferences with what others may respond to.
I personally have seen many young people come to know the lord because someone cared enough to design music they could relate to; and that contemporary music with Christian lyrics reached their hearts.
It is a beautiful thing to see when people put down their bias, judgmental, and personal feelings to minister to others on their level. God does this everyday. Yet many have not figured this out.
We need to wake up!
We have an adversary that is not bound by silly biases and manmade moral issues. The devil uses any and all means possible to win souls for his cause regardless of what he personally likes or dislikes. And since we are not willing to do the same, we are loosing young people and souls daily.
Don’t ask why young people are not in the churches anymore, because now you know why. They are in churches, just not SDA churches.
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Re: Celebration Church
#33987
04/16/04 12:18 AM
04/16/04 12:18 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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quote: Originally posted by Lobo: And how do you know what God would or would not approve in the way of music? Aside from lyrics, on what basis do you determine what is good music and what is not? How can musical style be seen as anything more than individual preference?
Your self-righteous statements here demonstrate the very reason why the SDA church is loosing members in North America.
Music is a tool that can be used for God or used for the devil. Fortunately, most Christian denominations understand that and they are winning souls for God left and right because they don’t confuse their individual preferences with what others may respond to.
I personally have seen many young people come to know the lord because someone cared enough to design music they could relate to; and that contemporary music with Christian lyrics reached their hearts.
It is a beautiful thing to see when people put down their bias, judgmental, and personal feelings to minister to others on their level. God does this everyday. Yet many have not figured this out.
We need to wake up!
We have an adversary that is not bound by silly biases and manmade moral issues. The devil uses any and all means possible to win souls for his cause regardless of what he personally likes or dislikes. And since we are not willing to do the same, we are loosing young people and souls daily.
Don’t ask why young people are not in the churches anymore, because now you know why. They are in churches, just not SDA churches.
Lobo, the answere here is quite simple, one single church cannot reach both groups. Some people can relate to Jimi Hendrix, not exclusively youth, and some can relate to other muisc styles, not exclusively old people. One should have two churches, one for each group. And the answere is NOT to change a church full of people who relate to hymns into a Jimi Hendrix style church, nor is it to turn a Jimi Hendrix style church into a hymns church. The result of such actions are obvious from testimonies and quotes already provided by others.
/Thomas
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Re: Celebration Church
#33988
04/16/04 01:11 AM
04/16/04 01:11 AM
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OP
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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The young people today are looking for people who live REAL lives for Jesus Christ. They are looking for those who LIVE their faith.
They do not want rock music with good words in church. They want a vibrant, happy church service where people have real relationships with the Lord and are not afraid to stand for right. They want REAL praise for God that they know will please Him because they love Him.
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Re: Celebration Church
[Re: debbie]
#156896
10/06/13 06:55 PM
10/06/13 06:55 PM
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Amen my sister!:) You have a LOT more courage than these mignard rascally COMEDIANS and their meretricious PARAMOURS in the church today who want to bring in barroom, promiscuous dance, licentious, worldly, carnal, amorous melodies and harmonies and dress them up as modern Christian hymns! These vile crafty seducers and their fem...ews of his time: "Orthodoxy is not that unbending, unyielding, bigoted opposition to improvement which our opponents represent it; it understands perfectly well what the spirit of the age requires; but it can yield nothing to public clamour, nor to the demands which seekers of innovations may make" that Public Worship, properly and Distinctly so-called, be ready willing and able to compromise, evade, dilute, or deny even a single one its fundamental essential distinctives in order "to accommodate itself to every phase of history. Such a religion would be none at all." - Isaac Leeser, Discourses on the Jewish Religion, Volume 9, page 90. "Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog," and this word DOG, Hebrew Kelev, in context, means a male prostitute, "into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God." - Deuteronomy 23:18. Oh, and just remember: LOBO in spanish for WOLF! Be warned, my sister in Christ, against these ravening gluttonous lewd lascivious WOLVES masquerading as SHEEP in order to spread their DECEITFUL and WORLDLY and LASCIVIOUS INNOVATIONS IN MUSIC INTO THE HOUSE OF GOD!
Last edited by Juan Jeanniton; 10/06/13 06:58 PM.
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Re: Celebration Church
[Re: John H.]
#156897
10/06/13 07:05 PM
10/06/13 07:05 PM
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Yet again Lobo twists things to suit his agenda, with little regard for the truth.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ellen attended one meeting where the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace, see (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 pages 40-41). Yet Ellen stated about this very service that "the power of God" was there (Spiritual Gifts vol 2 page 40).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is absolutely nothing in the passage referenced to indicate that "the volume of the service was so great that the local sheriff arrived to arrest the meeting leader for disturbing the peace."
Let's look at more of the passage in question:
<blockquote>"From Exeter we went to Atkinson. One night I was shown something that I did not understand. It was to this effect, that we were to have a trial of our faith. The next day, which was the first day of the week, while I was speaking, two men looked into the window. We were satisfied of their object. They entered and rushed past me to Eld. Damman. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon him, and his strength was taken away, and he fell to the floor helpless. The officer cried out, 'In the name of the State of Maine, lay hold of this man.' Two seized his arms, and two his feet, and attempted to drag him from the room. They would move him a few inches only, and then rush out of the house. The power of God was in that room, and the servants of God with their countenances lighted up with his glory, made no resistance. The efforts to take Eld. D. were often repeated with the same effect. The men could not endure the power of God, and it was a relief to them to rush out of the house. Their number increased to twelve, still Eld. D. was held by the power of God about forty minutes, and not all the strength of those men could move him from the floor where he lay helpless. At the same moment we all felt that Eld. D. must go; that God had manifested his power for his glory, and that the name of the Lord would be further glorified in suffering him to be taken from our midst. And those men took him up as easily as they would take up a child, and carried him out.
"After Eld. D. was taken from our midst he was kept in a hotel, and guarded by a man who did not like his office. He said that Eld. D. was singing, and praying, and praising the Lord all night, so that he could not sleep, and he would not watch over such a man. No one wished the office of guarding him, and he was left to go about the village as he pleased, after promising that he would appear for trial. Kind friends invited him to share their hospitalities. At the hour of trial Eld. D. was present. A lawyer offered his services. The charge brought against Eld. D. was, that he was a disturber of the peace. Many witnesses were brought to sustain the charge, but they were at once broken down by the testimony of Eld. D.'s acquaintances present, who were called to the stand. There was much curiosity to know what Eld. D. and his friends believed, and he was asked to give them a synopsis of his faith. He then told them in a clear manner his belief from the Scriptures. It was also suggested that they sung curious hymns, and he was asked to sing one. There were quite a number of strong brethren present who had stood by him in the trial, and they joined with him in singing, 'When I was down in Egypt's land, I heard my Saviour was at hand,' &c." {2SG 40,41}</blockquote>Elder D. was indeed charged with disturbing the peace, but nowhere are we given the reason for these charges. They were trumped up. And nowhere is it said that the "peace was disturbed" due to loud volume. Lobo manufactured that idea.
Then he goes on to try and make another passage mean what it most clearly does not mean:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ellen White opposed formal worship services as you all on this forum are advocating. She wrote: "The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted" (Testimonies vol 9 page 143).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let's see what that quote really means:
<blockquote>Formality In Worship. -- "In their efforts to reach the people, the Lord's messengers are not to follow the ways of the world. In the meetings that are held, they are not to depend on worldly singers and theatrical display to awaken an interest. How can those who have no interest in the word of God, who have never read His word with a sincere desire to understand its truths, be expected to sing with the spirit and the understanding? How can their hearts be in harmony with the words of sacred song? How can the heavenly choir join in music that is only a form?
"The evil of formal worship cannot be too strongly depicted, [this is the snippet quoted by Lobo] but no words can properly set forth the deep blessedness of genuine worship. When human beings sing with the spirit and the understanding, heavenly musicians take up the strain and join in the song of thanksgiving. He who has bestowed upon us all the gifts that enable us to be workers together with God, expects His servants to cultivate their voices so that they can speak and sing in a way that all can understand. It is not loud singing that is needed, but clear intonation, correct pronunciation, and distinct utterance. Let all take time to cultivate the voice so that God's praise can be sung in clear, soft tones, not with harshness and shrillness that offend the ear. The ability to sing is the gift of God; let it be used to His glory." {9T 143}</blockquote>So we see that Lobo is taking things out of context, and trying to use them to support an argument that EGW would oppose. She doesn't use the phrase "formal worship" as he would. "Formal" as used by her means having only a form of the real thing, not the genuine article. As Paul said,
<blockquote>"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." 2 Timothy 3:5</blockquote>"Formal" as advocated by the majority here is quite in keeping with God's ways, since
<blockquote>"God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33</blockquote>Where guitars are concerned, they're fine when used properly. The ancient temple services had stringed instruments in the music section. We just need to make sure they're being used to play music God can approve, not Jimi Hendrix tunes with 'Christian' lyrics. Amen my Brother! For LOBO is just another spanish word for WOLF! Jesus said beware of those who masquerade as SHEEP but inwardly and intrinsically there are ravening scoundrelly dishonorable WOLVES, not sparing the flock! And you have rightfully noticed that LOBO has so far taken verses and passages out of their proper CONTEXT, just like all HERETICS and FANATICS do!
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Re: Celebration Church
[Re: vastergotland]
#157064
10/11/13 02:37 PM
10/11/13 02:37 PM
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So far, I have warned people repeatedly to beware of the things that lobo has said in favor of borrowing the world's DISTINCTIVE and DETERMINATIVE and DEFINITIVE style of music into the hymnody and psalmody of the Church. You all ought to know - LOBO is just the Spanish word for WOLF!
Beware of those who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves!
If the GOATS were judged severely for NEGLECTING the corporal and spiritual works of mercy [Feed the Hungry, Give the Thirsty whereof to drink, Clothe the Naked, Visit the Sick and in Prison, Shelter the Alien and the Stranger, Vindicate and Plead the Righteous Cause of the Widow and the Orphan] Christ Jesus praised the sheep for doing dilligently, then think about this: Is it not therefore just and right for a more severe judgment to fall upon those ravening WOLVES who lead the SHEEP astray and DEVOUR them, yea, and TEACH them to trangress and profane God's Sacred Name?
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Re: Celebration Church
[Re: Juan Jeanniton]
#158361
11/16/13 01:51 AM
11/16/13 01:51 AM
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One month ago, I warned all of you about the dangerous innovations that lobo had promoted in Church Music, making them sound more worldly and less distinctively sacred. 6. The Lure of Worldly Music
No Frivolous Waltz or Flippant Song in the Schools of the Prophets. --The art of sacred melody was diligently cultivated. [In the schools of the prophets.] NO FRIVOLOUS WALTZ was heard, nor flippant song that should extol man and divert the attention from God; but sacred, solemn psalms of praise to the Creator, exalting His name and recounting His wondrous works. -- Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 97.
When Satan Takes Charge. --There has been a class of social gatherings in _____ of an entirely different character, parties of pleasure that have been a disgrace to our institutions and to the church. They encourage pride of dress, pride of appearance, self-gratification, hilarity and trifling. Satan is entertained as an honored guest, and takes possession of those who patronize these gatherings.
A view of one such company was presented to me, where were assembled those who profess to believe the truth. One was seated at the instrument of music, and such songs were poured forth as made the watching angels weep. There was mirth, there was coarse laughter, there was abundance of enthusiasm, and a kind of inspiration; but the joy was such as Satan only is able to create. This is an enthusiasm and infatuation of which all who love God will be ashamed. It prepares the participants for unholy thought and action. I have reason to think that some who were engaged in that scene heartily repented of the shameful performance. --Counsels to Teachers, p. 339. (Emphasis Supplied.)
Music Put to a Wrong Use. --I feel alarmed as I witness everywhere the frivolity of young men and young women who profess to believe the truth. God does not seem to be in their thoughts. Their minds are filled with nonsense. Their conversation is only empty, vain talk. They have a keen ear for music, and Satan knows what organs to excite to animate, engross, and charm the mind so that Christ is not desired. The spiritual longings of the soul for divine knowledge, for a growth in grace, are wanting.
I was shown that the youth must take a higher stand and make the word of God the man of their counsel and their guide. Solemn responsibilities rest upon the young, which they lightly regard. The introduction of music into their homes, instead of inciting to holiness and spirituality, has been the means of diverting their minds from the truth. Frivolous songs and the popular sheet music of the day seem congenial to their taste...
Music, when not abused, is a great blessing; but when put to a wrong use, it is a terrible curse. It excites, but does not impart that strength and courage which the Christian can find only at the throne of grace while humbly making known his wants and with strong cries and tears pleading for heavenly strength to be fortified against the powerful temptations of the evil one. Satan is leading the young captive. Oh, what can I say to lead them to break his power of infatuation! He is a skillful charmer, luring them on to perdition. --Testimonies, Vol. 1, pp. 496-497. (Emphasis Supplied.)
Satan Uses it to Gain Access. --Eternal things have little weight with the youth. Angels of God are in tears as they write in the roll the words and acts of professed Christians. Angels are hovering around yonder dwelling. The young are there assembled; there is the sound of vocal and instrumental music. Christians are gathered there, but what is that you hear?
It is a song, a frivolous ditty, fit for the dance hall. Behold the pure angels gather their light closer around them, and darkness envelops those in that dwelling. The angels are moving from the scene. Sadness is upon their countenances. Behold, they are weeping. This I saw repeated a number of times all through the ranks of Sabbath keepers, and especially in _______.
Music has occupied the hours which should have been devoted to prayer. Music is the idol which many professed Sabbath keeping Christians worship. Satan has no objection to music if he can make that a channel through which to gain access to the minds of the youth.
Anything will suit his purpose that will divert the mind from God and engage the time which should be devoted to His service. He works through the means which will exert the strongest influence to hold the largest numbers in a pleasing infatuation, while they are paralyzed by his power. When turned to good account, music is a blessing; but it is often made one of Satan's most attractive agencies to ensnare souls. When abused, it leads the unconsecrated to pride, vanity, and folly. When allowed to take the place of devotion and prayer, it is a terrible curse.
Young persons assemble to sing, and, although professed Christians, frequently dishonor God and their faith by their frivolous conversation and their choice of music. Sacred music is not congenial to their taste. I was directed to the plain teachings of God's word, which have been passed by unnoticed. In the judgment all these words of inspiration will condemn those who have not heeded them. --Testimonies, Vol. 1, pp. 585-586. (Emphasis Supplied)
Low Songs and Lewd Gestures. --Among the most dangerous resorts for pleasure is the theater. Instead of being a school of morality and virtue, as is so often claimed, it is the very hotbed of immorality. Vicious habits and sinful propensities are strengthened and confirmed by these entertainments. Low songs, Lewd gestures, expressions, and attitudes, deprave the imagination and debase the morals.
Every youth who habitually attends such exhibitions will be corrupted in principle. There is no influence in our land more powerful to poison the imagination, to destroy religious impressions, and to blunt the relish for the tranquil pleasures and sober realities of life than theatrical amusements. The love for these scenes increases with every indulgence, as the desire for intoxicating drink strengthens with its use. --Testimonies, Vol. 4, pp. 652-653. (Emphasis Supplied) Yet melodies and tunes like these are precisely the melodies and tunes LOBO wants to foist on the SDA Church by changing the lyrics to make them look more "Christian" and more "ecclesiastical"!
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Re: Celebration Church
[Re: debbie]
#164240
04/12/14 08:49 AM
04/12/14 08:49 AM
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Celebration Churches, Spiritual Formation, and One Project all seem to be a three-fold attempt to infiltrate and bring change to the SDA Church.
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Re: Celebration Church
[Re: Daryl]
#164241
04/12/14 10:47 AM
04/12/14 10:47 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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Re: Celebration Church
[Re: debbie]
#164244
04/12/14 04:39 PM
04/12/14 04:39 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The best way to overcome the infiltration of worldliness in the Church is for the Church to faithfully proclaim the 28 Fundamental Beliefs. Condemning worldliness or worldly church members will only inflame the problem. "The way to dispel darkness is to admit light. The best way to deal with error is to present truth. It is the revelation of God's love that makes manifest the deformity and sin of the heart centered in self." {DA 498.5}
People who spend their time and energy trying to root out evil in the Church are spinning their wheels. It is time wasted. The time they spend talking about evil is time not spent talking about Jesus and His righteousness. What the Church needs now is truth - the truth as it is in Jesus. "Not through controversy and discussion is the soul enlightened. We must look and live." {DA 175.2} People need to see Jesus in a positive light in the context of the fruits of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.
There is nothing wrong with the truth. There is nothing wrong with traditional worship services. There is nothing wrong with Church. It's not broken. It doesn't need repair. Church members are broken. Church members need repair. People who are thriving in Jesus thrive in Church. They thrive during traditional worship services. They do not need rock music to fall on the Rock. They do not need to wear less clothing to feel relevant. All they need is Christ and Him crucified. Give me Jesus!
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