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How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6481
07/13/00 04:44 PM
07/13/00 04:44 PM
A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered


------------------
"The joy of the Lord will be your strength." (Neh.8:10).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited July 30, 2000).]


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6482
07/25/00 10:43 PM
07/25/00 10:43 PM
A
Anonymous OP
Unregistered

Perhaps the true question ought be, not how we use the SOP; but rather how does the SOP use and move us.

Under SDA Church Issues -all SOP inspired ?
I posted things that better say a few things that we ought consider about SOP.
------------------
Edward F. Sutton

[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited July 25, 2000).]


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6483
07/27/00 01:20 PM
07/27/00 01:20 PM
Gerry Buck  Offline
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,859
Benton Harbor, Mi.
If used correctly, scripture and SOP will lead us to Christ.

If we read any of the scriptures, they either pointed forward to the Messias ( Old Testament) or back to the fulfillment of those prophecies (New Testament).

Any of the writings of SOP I have read, point to scripture as the final authority for our lives.
If we accept this premise, we will be led to a fuller understanding of just exactly who Jesus is, and, what He hopes to accomplish through and in us.

As to the inspiration or lack thereof,if and when I find anything she has written that is contrary to scripture, then and only then will I worry about it.

Gerry B.


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6484
07/30/00 11:34 PM
07/30/00 11:34 PM
Gerry Buck  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,859
Benton Harbor, Mi.
From personal experience, when I run into someone that says certain portions of scripture or SOP weren't inspired, after digging into it, I usually find that it is because it cuts into something they like or want to do.

Is it up to us to determine what is or isn't inspired in scripture or SOP?

Who is to make the final determination ?

------------------
Is what you're living for worth Christ dying for?

Gerry B.


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6485
01/17/01 03:31 AM
01/17/01 03:31 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Hello,

I'd like to resurrect this subject and share a few thoughts I'm hoping you will address.

First of all, let me make it clear that I'm a devoted believer in the messenger ministry of Ellen White. Her inspired insights have comforted me and given me hope many, many times. And I continue to draw counsel and comfort from her.

However, I do not believe her ministry was designed to discourage deeper study and the pursuit of new light. But on the other hand I also believe legitimate new light will compliment, not contradict, the pillars of Adventism.

I also believe there are three basic strands of truth - historic, saving and prophetic. I believe Ellen White's understanding of the historic and saving truths recorded in the Bible are beyond dispute. But I am of the opinion that the fluid nature of prophetic truths leaves plenty of room for serious students to join Ellen White in an attempt to interpret unfulfilled prophecies in the context of the Twenty-First Century.

Ellen White contributed many wonderful and awesome insights concerning the future of unfulfilled prophecies. However, I feel it would be irresponsible to suggest that she exhausted the subject. Thus, Bible students are faced with the task of incorporating her thoughts while at the same time searching for answers she did not, would not, or could not provide.

The versatile nature of unfulfilled symbolic prophecy is fantastically amazing. It's ability to accommodate a multitude of variables is beyond human invention. It is never out dated, never surprised and never disappointed. Perhaps it's flexibility is made possible because there is nothing new under the sun, and because history repeats itself.

Although conditional God's promises and prophecies are nonetheless inevitable. His word will not return unto Him void. Take, for example, the story of Jonah. Even though Nineveh was not distroyed in 40 days, like originally predicted, the prophecy of impending destruction was eventually fulfilled about 200 years later. If Jonah had only been more patient...

This example, amoung many others, serves to illustrate the flexible nature of certain aspects of prophecy. The restoration promises are another good example of just how fluid and accommodating prophecy can be. With the exception of the time dated elements of prophecy the principles, and even some particulars, are flexible enough to be fulfilled by any generation under a seemingly endless variety of circumstances.

The prophecy of Gog and Magog, for instance, should have been fulfilled decades before the first advent of Christ. However, the children of Israel failed to meet the conditions of the prophecy, thus God was forced to transfer the restoration promises in the name of the church to be fulfilled at the end of time. The general principles will be fulfilled as originally predicted even though some of the particulars no longer apply.

I mention these things only to say that I believe the versatile nature of prophecy creates opportunities for students today to apply the same or similair passages of scripture in ways not envisioned by Ellen White. Her willingness to expand her own understanding of scripture suggests she was not opposed to broader applications.

For example, think of the revisions she made to the 1888 edition of the Great Controversy regarding her original interpretation of Babylon, the great whore. When some of the brethren approached her with a broader view involving a three fold union of catholicism, apostate protestantism, and spiritualism she readily agreed.

This attitude seems to reflect the intent of the angel's counsel to John in Rev 10:11 - "Thou must prophesy again." As the scroll of history continues to unfold, and as our understanding of prophetic truth becomes clearer we may discover new ways to apply familair passages of scripture.

This often causes a stir among God's faithful standard bearers. And rightly so. However, I believe the many examples that testify to the flexible nature of prophecy should serve to encourage Bible students to open doors previously thought closed to future applications.

Consider Jesus' application of the story of Jonah. Reading that story in its context does not stir the imagination to look forward to Christ spending three days and nights in the heart of the earth. But Jesus' application of this story suggests that certain portions of scripture can be applied to situations sometimes not evenly remotely associated with the original intent. And it is obvious that this biblical principle does not destroy the integrity of the Bible. On the contrary, it enhances our ability to predict the future.

Accepting these principles in general is one thing, but attempting to apply them to specific passages of scripture may prove to be quite another thing to say the least. I myself have dared to walk out on a limb and share some of my observations with my fellow brothers and sisters with mixed results.

I will not in this thread share my personal discoveries, but I would like to invite you to visit the "Christian Concerns" forum and take a look at my postings on the various threads dealing with the book of Daniel. And I would also like to cordially invite you to share your comments and questions.

God bless,

Mike


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6486
01/17/01 08:32 PM
01/17/01 08:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Would anyone care to respond to the post preceding this one?

Mike


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6487
01/18/01 01:17 AM
01/18/01 01:17 AM
Edward F Sutton  Offline
Charter Member
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,428
Zanesville, OH 43701
working on it will reply on my night off.

------------------
Edward F Sutton


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6488
01/19/01 12:26 PM
01/19/01 12:26 PM
Edward F Sutton  Offline
Charter Member
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,428
Zanesville, OH 43701
The range of our views as SDA’s and the scope of already revealed inspiration . Was EGW influenced in her theology by mortals, or influenced in her delivery of that theology ?

The SOP declinations of Babylon - was 1888 a time of change or was this view basically constant from it’s origins and simply expanded & expounded on. Has modern Adventism caught up with and is now viewing
further than SOP ? Or is modern Adventism getting further and further away from the depths of information revealed in the published & unpublished SOP ?

This exert is from 1884 Volume 4 of the Spirit Of Prophecy series that expanded into the conflict of the Ages Series. This predates any “revising “ in 1888.

The term Babylon, derived from Babel, and signifying confusion, is applied in Scripture to the various forms of false or apostate religion. But the message announcing the fall of Babylon must apply
to some religious body that was once pure, and has become corrupt. It cannot be the Romish Church which is here meant; for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. But how appropriate the figure as applied to the Protestant churches, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects. The unity for which Christ prayed does not exist. Instead of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, there are numberless conflicting creeds and theories. Religious faith appears so confused and discordant that the world know not what to believe as truth. God is
not in all this; it is the work of man,--the work of Satan. {4SP 232.2}

In Revelation 17, Babylon is represented as a woman, a figure which is used in the Scriptures as the symbol of a church. A virtuous woman represents a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church.
Babylon is said to be a harlot; and the prophet beheld her drunken with the blood of saints and martyrs. The Babylon thus described represents Rome, that apostate church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. But Babylon the harlot is the mother of daughters who follow her
example of corruption. Thus are represented those churches that cling to the doctrines and traditions of Rome and follow her worldly practices, and whose fall is announced in the second angel's message.
{4SP 233.1}

Interesting concept - here seems to be shown different levels of Babylon.

But what about the revisions of her Opus Magnum - The Great Controversy ? See Volume 6 of EGW Biography, chapters 23-24

As prophecy fulfills will God cause understanding among us? Will it go in different directions than already
revealed ? Will it fill in details and provide specific directions ?

Desire of Ages - Jesus revealed, elaborated, explained, gave present truth style directions for present needs. No new “light” that contradicted established revelations.

“Before leaving His disciples, Christ plainly stated the nature of His kingdom. He called to their minds what He had previously told them concerning it. He declared that it was not His purpose to establish in this world a temporal, but a spiritual kingdom. He was not to reign as an earthly king on David's throne. Again He opened to them the Scriptures, showing that all He had passed through had been ordained in heaven, in the
councils between the Father and Himself. All had been foretold by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. He said, You see that all I have revealed to you concerning My rejection as the Messiah has come to pass. All I have
said in regard to the humiliation I should endure and the death I should die, has been verified. On the third day I rose again. Search the Scriptures more diligently, and you will see that in all these things the
specifications of prophecy concerning Me have been fulfilled. {DA 820.1}

William Miller had his hands full of fulfilling prophecy. Through Ellen Harmon(White) the advancing Millerites got loads of detailed but still on the same tract instructions.

With intense interest he studied the book of Daniel and the Revelation, employing the same principles of interpretation as in the other scriptures, and found, to his great joy, that the prophetic symbols could be
understood. He saw that the prophecies, so far as they had been fulfilled, had been fulfilled literally; that all the various figures, metaphors, parables, similitudes, etc., were either explained in their
immediate connection, or the terms in which they were expressed were defined in other scriptures; and when thus explained were to be literally understood. "Thus I was satisfied," he says, "that the Bible
was a system of revealed truth so clearly and simply given that the wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein." Link after link of the chain of truth rewarded his efforts, as step by step he traced
down the great lines of prophecy. Angels of Heaven were guiding his mind and opening the Scriptures to his understanding. {GC88 320.2}

Taking the manner in which the prophecies had been fulfilled in the past, as a criterion by which to judge of the fulfillment of those which were still future, he became satisfied that the popular view of the spiritual reign of Christ--a temporal millennium before the end of the world--was not sustained by the Word of God. This doctrine, pointing to a thousand years of righteousness and peace before the personal coming of the Lord, put far off the terrors of the day of God. But, pleasing though it may be, it is contrary to the teachings of Christ and his apostles, who declared that the wheat and the tares are to grow together until the harvest, the end of the world; [MATT. 13:30, 38-41.] that "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and
worse;" [2 TIM. 3:13, 1.] that "in the last days perilous times shall come;" [2 TIM. 3:13, 1.] and that the kingdom of darkness shall continue until the advent of the Lord, and shall be consumed with the spirit of his
mouth, and be destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 THESS. 2:8.] The doctrine of the world's conversion and the spiritual reign of Christ was not held by the apostolic church. It was not generally accepted by Christians until about the beginning of the eighteenth century. Like every other error, its results were evil. It taught men to look far in the future for the coming of the Lord, and prevented them from giving heed to the
signs heralding his approach. It induced a feeling of confidence and security that was not well founded, and led many to neglect the preparation necessary in order to meet their Lord. {GC88 321.1}

An entire periodical article is posted so we can read it & compare them with ourselves, their time and our time, their work & our work, how God lead them as to how He will lead us - as prophecy unfolds for us as it did for them.

December 10, 1894 he Sending Out of the Seventy.
-
By Mrs. E. G. White.
-

"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." The seventy were appointed to go on their missionary journeys some months after the twelve had been appointed to visit the lost sheep of the house of Israel. When the twelve were sent forth, they were restricted to the tribes of Israel, lest their missionary efforts should create prejudice among the Jews, whose teaching had been of such a character as to make them narrow in their ideas in regard to the extension of the gospel to other nationalities. The disciples themselves could scarcely comprehend the fact that the blessings of God were for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews, and had to unlearn many lessons that made them conservative in their views concerning the mission and work of the Messiah. But evidences were given them that prepared them to understand that the tidings of the kingdom of Christ were to be preached to all nations. Now that their sympathies were broadening, and their ideas expanding in
regard to the purpose of God, Christ desired them to act out their faith before he should be removed from them, that there might be no misunderstanding in regard to the extension of the gospel. {ST, December 10,
1894 par. 1}

Jesus' great heart of love was filled with longing to proclaim the words of life to all nationalities, and he did this in a large measure. He placed himself in the great thoroughfares of travel, where the crowds passed to and fro, and preached to large concourses of different peoples. But he saw numerous fields opening up for
missionary labor. There was abundant opportunity for the twelve disciples to work, and not only for them, but for a very large number of workers. He educated a larger number to employ in missionary work, and, as he sent forth seventy more laborers into the harvest field, he said, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are
few; pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest." In giving his laborers direction as they began this most important work, he said, "Salute no man by the way." The salutation to which he referred was not that of giving a friendly grasp to the hand, but was a long series of ceremonies, that consumed time to no profit, and their business was too urgent to trifle away precious moments in unnecessary forms. They were bearing a message that was to be as a savor of life unto life to those
who received it, and as a savor of death unto death to those who rejected it; and all these superstitious positions and ceremonies of salutation, if performed, would lessen the importance of the message, and seem
to make it of little moment. {ST, December 10, 1894 par. 2}

The sending out of the disciples on a missionary tour was a most important movement, as it was a breaking away from the old, narrow conservatism of the Jews, and would have a tendency to lead them away from their prejudices against other nations, and establish them in a larger charity. He wished them to be impressed with the necessity of planting the truth in the hearts of all men, with the thought that all who would come might come to him, and by believing in him have life through his name. The time was approaching when he should
leave his followers, but he promised them that the Spirit should come to lead them into all truth, to illuminate to their minds the Scriptures which he had himself given to patriarchs and prophets. No longer were the
Gentiles to be kept in heathenism, or, as it were, in the outer courts of the temple. {ST, December 10, 1894
par. 3}

The Pharisees were daily plotting to stop the spread of the gospel of Christ, and were misinterpreting God's word, by threatening the people, and seeking to intimidate them, and they deepened the darkness that enveloped the souls of men, and bound more firmly the chains of superstition and error that Jesus was
breaking from those who believed in him. The Pharisees and rulers and rabbis sought to controvert the truth by their assertions, and manifested great zeal in pursuing their evil course. They hesitated at nothing that
would carry out their hatred of Christ. The seventy were sent out with the warning, "Behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves." But though sent out to meet opposition, they were not to be spiritless, powerless, and feeble. They were to exercise every proper means that was consistent with the commission they were given, and spend and be spent in seeking to win souls to the kingdom of Jesus Christ. A new and mighty movement was to be inaugurated, a new epoch was to be ushered in, advancing the truth to the world. {ST,
December 10, 1894 par. 4}

The world's Redeemer marks out the course the disciples were to pursue. There must be no betraying of sacred trusts on the part of those intrusted with the work, no yielding save to one Guide. Christ laid out before them the rules of action they were to follow, the manner in which they were to
pursue their work, and there must be no swerving from God's word. He sent them forth two and two. This was the order in which the laborers were to go forth. He was about to leave the work, and he determined to put it in the hands of faithful men, who would teach others also to carry forward and
proclaim the gospel of the kingdom to all nations, tongues, and peoples. He had revealed to his followers invisible realities, and had told them of coming events, reaching down to the end of earth's history. He had opened up to them principles concerning redemption and moral government by holding forth to them the words of life, and all these great truths which he had communicated to them were not only
for their enlightenment, but that they also might communicate truth to others who were in darkness. The seventy were to go forth to do a work similar to that which was being done by the twelve. They were all endowed with supernatural endowments as the seal of their heavenly calling. They were ordained to proclaim that which Jesus at the beginning of his ministry had bidden them to keep secret. Repeatedly Jesus had charged them not to proclaim his Messiahship, but to let the people receive him upon the testimony of his words and works. His works presented the divine credentials that bore
sufficient evidence of his claims. But before the close of his earthly ministry, it was his purpose to give men unmistakable evidence of the fact that he was the Sent of God, that he was the center and soul of
the kingdom of Israel; and this fact was to be proclaimed throughout all the borders of Judea; and in his last journey toward Jerusalem, prophecy should be so publicly fulfilled that no student of Scripture
need be in doubt concerning his character and mission. The specifications of prophecy were to be fulfilled to the letter. {ST, December 10, 1894 par. 5}

It was the work of the seventy disciples to give publicity to his work. They were his delegated forerunners, sent forth to create an interest in him, and to bear their message heralding his approach.
The Saviour gave them special instruction as to how they were to conduct themselves, and what preliminary work must be done by them. The instruction was after the same order as he gave to the twelve when he sent them forth.
"Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax
not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." They were not to keep their goods, bind them up in a napkin, and hide them in the earth. The Lord would have them put to use the talents he had given them, and put them out to the exchangers, by using every ability of money,
mind, or influence in furthering the communication of the light of truth to souls who sat in darkness. {ST, December 10, 1894 par. 6}

He said to them, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." "What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" {ST, December 10, 1894 par. 7}

The spirit of prophecy had distinctly predicted that God would raise up an inspired Teacher, who should instruct the people. This great Teacher had appeared among men, but they knew him not. Christ, the
foundation of the whole Jewish economy, who had been prefigured in sacrifices and offerings, had appeared in the Jewish nation, but their eyes were blinded. He had himself inspired the prophets to testify of the manner of his coming, and at sundry times and in divers places Christ himself had spoken to man. There had been no
time when he was not in communication with his chosen people. The Jewish services all testify of him, pointing out the attributes of his divine character. Important truth concerning him was veiled in types and
shadows and symbols, and was to be fulfilled in Christ's mission and ministry. From time to time the veil had been lifted and the mystery had been revealed concerning the plan of salvation. The reality had been made
plain, the substance had appeared, explaining the shadow. Jesus Christ was revealed, the One who was to give
his life for the redemption of the world. Those who believed in him in the ages before his personal advent, "died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." {ST, December 10,
1894 par. 8}

"By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he had respect unto the recompense of
the reward." Here is plain evidence that Moses understood the mission of Christ and the work he was to do. He expected the substance to be revealed, and the unfinished economy of the Jewish nation would be
completed in perfect fulfillment of every specification that God had given in types and shadows. He would bring his own system of arrangements to perfection. For Moses truly said unto the fathers: "A prophet shall
the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be
destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days." {ST, December 10, 1894 par. 9}

The work of the chosen twelve, and of the seventy who were sent out, was to proclaim the Messiahship of Jesus, and to herald his personal coming wheresoever they should go. They were to say, "Behold the Lamb
of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!" {ST, December 10, 1894 par. 10}

[This message has been edited by Edward F Sutton (edited January 19, 2001).]


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6489
01/20/01 02:56 AM
01/20/01 02:56 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Mike here:

I'm using a friend's computer.

Looks like maybe I got my dates mixed up when Ellen White revised her published explanation of Babylon. Do you happen to have the precise year?

I'm not sure I caught the drift of the last post in light of the thoughts I shared a few posts back. It looks as though Edward is building a foundation upon which to develop more thoughts later on. Is that close to being right?

I'll be back online toward the middle of next month, and I'm very much looking forward to reading any posts made between now and then. I realize Linda said this thread was worked really hard last year and she thought maybe others were not real interested in discussing further at this time. But I'll be happt to read whatever is posted.

God bless,

Mike


Re: How Do We Use The S.O.P.? #6490
01/20/01 12:52 PM
01/20/01 12:52 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Mike,

Wasn't Linda was referring to the Most Holy Place topic in the Bible Study forum?

Have a safe trip.

__________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace

Daryl


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