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Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6970
03/09/05 04:31 AM
03/09/05 04:31 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'm not sure "Bible Study" is the best place to put this, since it's dealing with Spirit of Prohesy quotes, but the more logical places to put this I don't have permission to, so here it goes. The following quote seemed important enough to me to start a new topic. The point is that Satan after sinning could have been restored to his former position without Christ's death. quote:
He was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as God alone could make, were made to convince him of his error, and restore him to the path of rectitude. God would preserve the order of the heavens, and had Lucifer been willing to return to his allegiance, humble and obedient, he would have been re-established in his office as covering cherub. (4SP 319)
If sin requires, in and of itself, death, then Christ should have had to die for Satan. However, Satan could have been restored with Christ's death. Why couldn't man have also been restored without Christ's death? It can't be because sin requries an arbitrary punishment, because then Satan's sin would also have required Christ's death -- but it didn't.
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6971
03/09/05 07:02 PM
03/09/05 07:02 PM
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Seeing this topic is focusing on SOP quotes,I have moved this into the Spirit of Prophecy forum from the Bible Study forum for continued discussion here.
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6972
03/09/05 07:07 PM
03/09/05 07:07 PM
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Tom,
You said that Satan could have been restored with Christ's death, or did you mean to say that Satan could have been restored without Christ's death?
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6973
03/09/05 07:33 PM
03/09/05 07:33 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Yes, Daniel, I meant Satan could have been restored without Christ's death.
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6974
03/09/05 08:11 PM
03/09/05 08:11 PM
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It's Daryl, not Daniel. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif) Anyway, here is what you said, Tom, with the correction of that word: If sin requires, in and of itself, death, then Christ should have had to die for Satan. However, Satan could have been restored without Christ's death. Why couldn't man have also been restored without Christ's death? It can't be because sin requries an arbitrary punishment, because then Satan's sin would also have required Christ's death -- but it didn't. I think the question can be answered with the thought that there was given a time of probation for Satan, the originator of sin, to do a turnabout, for Satan wasn't even told that his life would end as it was in the case of Adam and Eve. This is my initial response without first researching it further to see what else may have been said about this in the writings of EGW. I would first research the Bible, however, I think the Bible is silent on this matter. Correct me, if I am wrong though. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6975
03/09/05 08:46 PM
03/09/05 08:46 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't know why I wrote "Daniel." I was thinking "Daryl." At least I thought I was. Maybe I have "Daniel" preprogrammed in muscle memory. I think you're on the right track, Daryl. In the chapter "It is Finished" EGW wrote: quote:
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love.
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761, 762)
Satan's position was different than man's because he knew God's love much more than did man, having dwelled for who knows how long in the very presence of God. So there was nothing more that God could do for Satan regarding a revelation of His character, since Satan rebelled already knowing God's character.
Man however did not know, so the revelation of God's character through the life and death of Christ was able to save man.
My point in posting this topic is to point out that sin does not in and of itself require the death of a substitute, because Satan could have been restored without any death, even though he had been committing sin for quite some time (he had been lying).
The reason the death of Christ was necessary for man was that man's position was different than Satan's, and a revelation of God's love *could* restore man. There was no arbitrary, legal adjustment necessary (just as there wasn't for Satan), but a necessity that man *himself* be brought back into harmony with God. And this is exactly what the atonement does.
(We can surmise some things from what the Scriptures tells us about Satan, but are limited in what we know, compared to the Spirit of Prophesy. Milton apparently divined quite a bit of it however, either from Scripture or special revelation. The argument I have been presenting is based on the Spirit of Prophesy.
Thanks for moving the topic to the proper location.)
=====
Name correction only. - Daryl
[ March 09, 2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6976
03/10/05 01:30 AM
03/10/05 01:30 AM
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Don't forget though that the devil also succeeded in deceiving a third of the angels as well as placing a question in the minds of the rest of His unfallen creation.
This is why the devil wasn't immediately destroyed by God.
This would also seem that even those who saw God face-to-face didn't really understand His character.
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6977
03/10/05 02:49 AM
03/10/05 02:49 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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That's true (that there were things they didn't know about God's character). You see this among the loyal angels as well. Often they were wanting to see God's "justice" (his wiping out people). It wasn't until the cross that they really understood who God was. So there's some similarity between them and us.
But the Spirit of Prophesy makes clear that there was a difference as well. (I already quoted it in this thread, so I won't quote is again.) The difference was that Satan insisted on rebelling having been in God's presence, so there was nothing more that God could do for him.
However, the point I am making in this thread is that the fact that God would have forgiven Satan, even though he had sinned (had Satan repented) shows that sin does not necessarily require death.
The death of Christ was not an arbitrary event, being forced because of sin, but was necessary as a means to an end. The end was to teach us the truth about God. God couldn't do that for Satan because he already knew too much. But for man there was hope that he could be brought back to God by a revelation of God's character.
So Christ died.
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6978
03/10/05 01:59 PM
03/10/05 01:59 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I'm not so sure he was sinning; maybe he was still undecided, evaluating things?
"Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all Heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. {GC 495}
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Re: Why wouldn't Christ have died for Satan?
#6979
03/11/05 03:59 AM
03/11/05 03:59 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
He was not immediately dethroned when he first ventured to indulge the spirit of discontent and insubordination, nor even when he began to present his false claim and lying representations before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again was he offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as God alone could make, were made to convince him of his error, and restore him to the path of rectitude. (4SP 319)
Note:
1) Satan indulged a spirit of discontent.
2) Satan indulged a spirit of insubordination.
3) Satan presented false claims before the loyal angels.
4) Satan lied ("presented lying misrepresentations").
5) Long was he retained in heaven.
6) Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission.
The fact that he was offered pardon shows that he had sinned, as does the necessity of repentance.
(I wonder if I'll ever get used to these buttons being backwards)
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