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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7123
10/22/05 10:16 PM
10/22/05 10:16 PM
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Brazil
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Tom,
Is Christ the Judge or not?
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7124
10/23/05 06:42 AM
10/23/05 06:42 AM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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The statement from the Spirit of Prophecy stated that to be properly understood any truth must be related to Calvary. It did not state that any truth needed to be stated in relation to Calvary. If you do not see its relation to Calvary, you do not understand it.Tom, are you saying the inspired accounts do not mention the cross in the context of the Flood? If not, why not? I'm saying that no truth can be properly understood unless it relation to Calvary is seen. Actually, I didn't say that, Ellen White did. I agree with her point. I don't see anything in your posts which attempt to relate your views to Calvary.If you have to interpret an event in such a way that God is using force to get His way, then you are not interpreting it correctly; inspiration does not contradict itself.There is no interpreting necessary, Tom. If we were robots, perhaps no interpretation would be necessary. But we're human beings, and we interpret everything. You interpret everything according to your view, and it appears to me that you are actually more interpretative than anyone else in this forum, so it is a bit ironic for you to assert no interpretation is necessary.It plainly says God punished and destroyed the antediluvians with a Flood. Period. God punished and destroyed the antediluvians with a flood in a way which is in harmony with the principles of His government, which is consistent with the supreme revelation of His character, which is His Son Jesus Christ. Exclamation point!God did not use force to compel people to accept Jesus. Amen! Now you're getting it!Yes it does.No it doesn’t. Whoa!! Let's go back and see what this is talking about. This is so chopped up , there's not context here. Let me go back and see what the context is, as I'm guessing you're going to switch subjects here. Ok, here's what I wrote:
quote:
Look at either the paragraphs immediately preceeding or immediately following, and you will see that she is saying the same thing (in almost the same words) as what I quoted above in 14 MR 3.
I then provided the actual words which do indeed say what I said they said.
Nowhere in your 14 MR 3 quote did she say that, “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”
Yes, here is the change of subject I suspected. If you will read what I wrote you will see that I said that the context of the sentence that you posted says the same thing that 14 MR 3 says. You are disputing something you wrote, which you are free to do, but please recognize that you are not disputing what I wrote.
Old Mike: Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP will you find the unsaved sinners pleading with God to command the fires of hell to punish and destroy them for rejecting Jesus. Instead, they rally their forces in an attempt to take by force the New Jerusalem.
Yes. Here it is again.
The quotes you posted did not say that they pleaded with God to kill them in the lake of fire.
They said they would rather die than live, their choice to die is voluntary, and God gives them over to their choice. They said exactly what I have been saying. You're twisting my words, as you generally do. I've never made the claims you say I am making. Her quotes support the claims I myself made.
Nor did they say that the unsaved created the lake of fire themselves and then hopped in it in order to die.
This is another twisting of words. I never claimed this. Here's what I claim:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
Old Mike: Are you suggesting that Satan has the authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God?
The same authority which we have, commonly known as free will. In the Lord's prayer we pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" demonstrating that God's will is not done on earth (which is obvious to anyone with eyes).
So, you believe Satan is a rogue enemy of God and man, who has the right and authority to cause pain and suffering against the will and wishes of God? that he can, without any restraint from God, do as he pleases, irrespective of God’s will? that God has no right or authority to prevent Satan from causing pain and suffering against His will? When did God grant this type of power and authority and freedom to the Devil?
No, Mike. I believe what I wrote. God gave man, angels, and other beings free will. When men, or angels, chose or choose to do other than God's will then it is inevitable that suffering and death result. This is never God's will.
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. (CH 168)
But this is not the meaning you were conveying before, which is the erroneous idea that Satan does what God wants Him to do. This idea is false. If it were true, Satan would perform the same selfless acts benefiting others which Christ did.
He does, when it serves his purposes. Check out this quote:
I read you quotes, and saw nothing what contradicted what I wrote. Satan has no power to heal. He can apparently cause healing by removing the disease which he himself is causing. That's not in any way, shape, or form, the same thing which Christ did.
The fact that you do not see differences between how Christ acts and how Satan acts is, to my mind, a very serious weakness in your position.
In Christ we see exactly what God's will is. Anything which varies from what we see in Christ in the least particular is contrary to God's will.
Tom, when Jesus was on earth when did He allow Satan to harness the powers of nature to kill flocks and loved ones? “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”
When did Jesus, while on earth, command holy angels to kill people? “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”
I understand your questions here to be an expression of disagreement of what I wrote. So which of the two sentences is it which you disagree with? Is it this one:
"In Christ we see exactly what God's will is." or this one "Anything which varies from what we see in Christ in the least particular is contrary to God's will"?
I don't see how any Christian could agree with either of these sentences.
quote:
In His lessons and His mighty works Christ is a perfect revelation of God. This Christ declares through the inspired evangelist. "No man hath seen God at any time," He says; "the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18). "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." These words show the importance of studying Christ's character. Only by knowing Christ can we know God. (IHP 250)
I am saying nothing different than this.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7125
10/23/05 06:47 AM
10/23/05 06:47 AM
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In response to your question, Rosangela: quote:
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.(John 12:47,48)
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7126
10/23/05 12:09 PM
10/23/05 12:09 PM
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Brazil
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Tom, and what do you make of the quotes I had mentioned previously:
John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Acts 10:42 And He commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained of God to be the Judge of the quick and dead.
Acts 17:31 because He hath appointed a Day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained.
Romans 2:16 Thus will it be on the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.
Do you simply ignore them?
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7127
10/23/05 04:55 PM
10/23/05 04:55 PM
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OP
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quote:
I'm saying that no truth can be properly understood unless it relation to Calvary is seen. Actually, I didn't say that, Ellen White did. I agree with her point. I don't see anything in your posts which attempt to relate your views to Calvary.
I would be happy to relate my views in the context of the Cross, but that’s not my question. My question to you, Tom, is - Did Sister White share her inspired views of the Flood in the context of Calvary? If not, why not?
quote:
Yes, here is the change of subject I suspected. If you will read what I wrote you will see that I said that the context of the sentence that you posted says the same thing that 14 MR 3 says.
Now that we understand we’re on the same subject, please show me in the 14 MR 3 quotation where she says something equivalent to the following from the GC 614 quote: “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”
quote:
They said they would rather die than live, their choice to die is voluntary, and God gives them over to their choice. They said exactly what I have been saying. You're twisting my words, as you generally do. I've never made the claims you say I am making. Her quotes support the claims I myself made.
I did not say you said those things. I was simply saying that’s not what they do say. Your view, in my opinion, implies it. The DA 764 quotes says – “This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.” According to your view, if I am hearing you correctly, you believe they receive the results of their choice when God allows the forces of nature to kill them.
You also seem to be saying that there is no sustained physical pain and suffering proportionate to their sinfulness, that no one suffers physically longer than anyone else, that literal flames have nothing to do with how long each sinner suffers in the lake of fire, that their suffering is emotional and spiritual, that the flames symbolize their internal pain.
quote:
No, Mike. I believe what I wrote. God gave man, angels, and other beings free will. When men, or angels, chose or choose to do other than God's will then it is inevitable that suffering and death result. This is never God's will.
Does God ever use pain and suffering, sickness and death, to accomplish His will?
quote:
I understand your questions here to be an expression of disagreement of what I wrote. So which of the two sentences is it which you disagree with?
No, Tom, my questions have to do with what I asked. Here they are again:
quote:
Tom, when Jesus was on earth when did He allow Satan to harness the powers of nature to kill flocks and loved ones? “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”
When did Jesus, while on earth, command holy angels to kill people? “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”
I think we can both agree that Jesus never did anything of these things while on earth as a man. In the same way Rosangela is trying to help you see that Jesus did not serve in the capacity as judge while on earth as a man, it does not mean Jesus will never serve as judge or use the forces of nature to punish and kill unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. Jesus did not act or behave on earth in the same way He does in heaven. He did not demonstrate, when He was on earth, all the offices and actions He took in the OT or will take at the end of time.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7128
10/23/05 09:22 PM
10/23/05 09:22 PM
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I'm saying that no truth can be properly understood unless it relation to Calvary is seen. Actually, I didn't say that, Ellen White did. I agree with her point. I don't see anything in your posts which attempt to relate your views to Calvary.I would be happy to relate my views in the context of the Cross Please do so., but that’s not my question. Right, that was my question to you.My question to you, Tom, is - Did Sister White share her inspired views of the Flood in the context of Calvary? If not, why not? You already asked this question, and I answered it. My answer was that she did not say that the relationship to Calvary had to be stated but that it needed to be understood. As to why she didn't present the view in relation to the flood, there's no need as the principle has been explained many times. Once the principle is understood, it may be applied to other cases.
If one does not understand the principle, then one is destined to consider each individual incident case by case with no clue as to what is happening, unless some inspired comment illuminates the mind. This is the problem of relying on proof texts. When one understands the principles, one knows what is going on in each case.
Here's an example of the principle being explained:
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. (GC 35)
The principle is that God protects and sustains us, from destructive forces that would overwhelm us. When God withdraws that protection, Satan presents God as doing that which He allows. You have expressed the opinion that it doesn't make any difference whether God actively does the destructive act, but it does:
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer (CH 168)
What is at issue is if we understand the difference between God and Satan.
Regarding how the flood came about, I'm not sure if you have perceived this or not, but your view and mine are very similar. The difference is a subtle one. We both agree that God used water from beneath the earth to destroy the antedeluvians, and we both agree that He did so for the purpose of saving the race (had God not intervened, Satan would have succeeded in his goal to destroy any line by which the Messiah could come).
I assume you comprehend that the waters of underneath the earth had to be under great pressure in order to escape into the atmosphere. So the only difference in our views is that I believe that God was preventing the waters from escaping until the time that He released His protection, and you believe that God was active in opening the earth to allow the waters to explode from the depths. Given that you don't think there is any difference whether God allowed the water to explode by releasing His protection, or if God caused it to happen, it is strange that you would argue so strongly against the idea I have presented. What leads me to this idea is that it harmonizes with the principles God has revealed to us, including:
1)Force is not a principle of God's government.
2)Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power.
3)Satan is the destroyer. God is the restorer.
4)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son.
5)We owe our existence to the protective and sustaining care of God.
6)The laws of nature are not self-acting. They require God's protective and sustaining care.
7)If God is replaced by another god, the mighty powers of nature are removed from His control.
8)The government of God is like no earthly government. Every instrument of coercion is banished.
Yes, here is the change of subject I suspected. If you will read what I wrote you will see that I said that the context of the sentence that you posted says the same thing that 14 MR 3 says.
Now that we understand we’re on the same subject, please show me in the 14 MR 3 quotation where she says something equivalent to the following from the GC 614 quote: “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”
You're still changing the subject! Just like before! I said the context of the sentence you snipped was the same as the 14 MR 3 quote. Not the sentence itself, but the context of the sentence. I cited what came before and after, and it is indeed like 14 MR 3, just like I said.
Here is 14 MR 3:
quote:
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them.It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of.
Here is GC:
quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}
There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who
615
have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution. {GC 614.3}
When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. The ministration in the temple continued; sacrifices were offered upon its polluted altars, and daily the divine blessing was invoked upon a people guilty of the blood of God's dear Son and seeking to slay His ministers and apostles. So when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world has been forever fixed, the inhabitants of the earth will know it not. The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God. {GC 615.1}
You are wanting to take two sentences out of context without considering what the overall point is. I have quoted the surrounding paragraphs, and it is evident that these are not saying anything different than 14 MR 3.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7129
10/23/05 09:33 PM
10/23/05 09:33 PM
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They said they would rather die than live, their choice to die is voluntary, and God gives them over to their choice. They said exactly what I have been saying. You're twisting my words, as you generally do. I've never made the claims you say I am making. Her quotes support the claims I myself made.I did not say you said those things. You implied it.I was simply saying that’s not what they do say. Your view, in my opinion, implies it. If that's what you think, then say so! Say, "In my opinion your view implies ..." But please don't present your words as if they were mine, or your ideas as if they were mine.The DA 764 quotes says – “This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.” According to your view, if I am hearing you correctly, you believe they receive the results of their choice when God allows the forces of nature to kill them. What she states is that they form characters so out of harmony with God that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire. The light of the glory of God destroys them. This is what I believe.You also seem to be saying that there is no sustained physical pain and suffering proportionate to their sinfulness, that no one suffers physically longer than anyone else, that literal flames have nothing to do with how long each sinner suffers in the lake of fire, that their suffering is emotional and spiritual, that the flames symbolize their internal pain. Where do you get this from?!? Could you quote something I've written? To my knowledge, I've not said anything remotely like this.No, Mike. I believe what I wrote. God gave man, angels, and other beings free will. When men, or angels, chose or choose to do other than God's will then it is inevitable that suffering and death result. This is never God's will.Does God ever use pain and suffering, sickness and death, to accomplish His will? God never causes these things to happen.
quote:
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. (CH 168)
I understand your questions here to be an expression of disagreement of what I wrote. So which of the two sentences is it which you disagree with?
No, Tom, my questions have to do with what I asked. Here they are again:
Well then why do you quote what I wrote, and then ask questions immediately following that? If your questions are unrelated to what I'm writing, please make that clear.
Tom, when Jesus was on earth when did He allow Satan to harness the powers of nature to kill flocks and loved ones? “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”
When did Jesus, while on earth, command holy angels to kill people? “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.”
I think we can both agree that Jesus never did anything of these things while on earth as a man. In the same way Rosangela is trying to help you see that Jesus did not serve in the capacity as judge while on earth as a man, it does not mean Jesus will never serve as judge or use the forces of nature to punish and kill unsaved sinners in the lake of fire. Jesus did not act or behave on earth in the same way He does in heaven. He did not demonstrate, when He was on earth, all the offices and actions He took in the OT or will take at the end of time.
If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.
Given that Satan is so successful at misrepresenting God's character, it's amazing to me that we would not even open ourselves up to the possibility that we have been deceived by him. Especially if our views lead us to positions where we would have God and Satan, or Christ and Satan, acting in exactly the same way.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7130
10/25/05 03:40 AM
10/25/05 03:40 AM
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OP
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quote:
Mike: Does God ever use pain and suffering, sickness and death, to accomplish His will?
Tom: God never causes these things to happen.
God very clearly used leprosy to teach Miriam a lesson.
Deuteronomy
24:9 Remember what the LORD thy God did unto Miriam by the way, after that ye were come forth out of Egypt.
Numbers
12:9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.
12:10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous.
12:11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12:12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.
12:13 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
12:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in [again].
12:15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in [again].
quote:
If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.
Given that Satan is so successful at misrepresenting God's character, it's amazing to me that we would not even open ourselves up to the possibility that we have been deceived by him. Especially if our views lead us to positions where we would have God and Satan, or Christ and Satan, acting in exactly the same way.
Tom, now you’re talking plain and straight. I now understand how you think and feel and believe about things like the Flood. You believe He merely allows Satan to do these things. Period. Exclamation point!
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7131
10/24/05 08:34 PM
10/24/05 08:34 PM
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Mike: Does God ever use pain and suffering, sickness and death, to accomplish His will? Tom: God never causes these things to happen. God very clearly used leprosy to teach Miriam a lesson. Deuteronomy 24:9 Remember what the LORD thy God did unto Miriam by the way, after that ye were come forth out of Egypt. Numbers 12:9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. 12:10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam [became] leprous, [white] as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, [she was] leprous. 12:11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned. 12:12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb. 12:13 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee. 12:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in [again]. 12:15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in [again].j God allows things like leprosy to happen, but:
quote:
"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.
If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.
Given that Satan is so successful at misrepresenting God's character, it's amazing to me that we would not even open ourselves up to the possibility that we have been deceived by him. Especially if our views lead us to positions where we would have God and Satan, or Christ and Satan, acting in exactly the same way.
Tom, now you’re talking plain and straight. I now understand how you think and feel and believe about things like the Flood. You believe He merely allows Satan to do these things.
I was disappointed in reading this. At first I thought you were being serious and found some point of commonality, but then I saw you were just being sarcastic. That's too bad.
Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power. This is to say, not the work of God, but rather that of a power which is antagonistic to God. That makes sense, doesn't it?
It appears to me that you do not see sin as something which is bad in and of itself. In your view, it appears to me, sin is only bad because God punishes it. If God didn't punish it, there wouldn't be any problem. OTOH I view sin as a deadly cancer which would destroy all things if God didn't intervene to destroy it. God is at all times intervening to prevent sin from having its full effect. He does this through His angels, which are holding back the winds of strife. When these angels are released, then the terrible events of the last plagues will happen. These terrible things are the result of God's removing His protective and sustaining hand, as 14 MR 3 makes plain.
When I made the statement that a weakness of your position is that you cannot differentiate between what God does and what Satan does I was not referencing the flood, or any specific incident at all. What I was referencing was the act of evil itself, any act. In your view either God or Satan can do anything; lie, kill, destroy, maim, cause sickness, whatever. The only way you know if God or Satan does something is some inspired source tells you. According to my point of view, the way to know if God or Satan is doing something is by knowing the life of Christ. If it is out of harmony with the Word, then it is not God, but rather the antagonistic power. When the Scripture presents God as doing something which is out of character with Christ, we know it is speaking in the sense of permission. For example:
quote:
But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” Job. 2:5
God allowed sickness, suffering and death to visit Job, the work of an antagonistic power, and the Scriptures, and Satan, ascribe this work to God. But in truth it was Satan who was responsible for these things; God simply allowed them to occur. If one understands God's character as revealed in Christ, one would know this even if the book of Job were not pointing it out.
Here's another example:
quote:
And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.(Numbers 21:6)
Sounds like God doing this, correct? But if we bear in mind the principle that sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power, we know it cannot be God who caused these things. Here is the comment from the Spirit of Prophecy:
quote:
"Because they had been shielded by divine power, they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures." (PP428, 429)
If one understands the principle that Christ is the full and complete revelation of God's character, one doesn't need the PP explanation to know that God did not cause the serpents to come upon the Israelites, even though that's what it says in Numbers 21.
Similarly we read in GC 35
quote:
Says the prophet, '0 Israel; thou hast destroyed thyself;' 'for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.' [123] Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will.
If one understands that Christ is the full and complete revelation of God's will, one doesn't need this explanation in GC 35 to understand that God did not destroy Jerusalem, even though the Scriptures state that God would destroy Jerusalem. That is, one understands that God destroyed Jerusalem in a permissive sense only, by withdrawing His protection, because that's the only explanation which is in harmony with His character as revealed in Christ.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7132
10/25/05 02:31 PM
10/25/05 02:31 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Tom, now you’re talking plain and straight. I now understand how you think and feel and believe about things like the Flood. You believe He merely allows Satan to do these things.
No sarcasm intended, Tom. I am happy I finally understand where you're coming from. For some reason I thought you believed God sometimes causes things to happen Himself, like the Flood, and that sometimes He allows holy angels to do things - but now I see you firmly believe that God never does it, that He always and only gives evil angels permissions to do things that cause pain and suffering and death. Now that I understand your position there is no more need to study it further with you. I am willing to agree to disagree.
PS - I guess I remember you saying that God also sometimes allows the pent up forces of nature to cause destruction, and that somehow He also allows sin to run its natural course of destruction.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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