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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7173
11/14/05 02:47 PM
11/14/05 02:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Before answering your post, did you notice that your statements are self-contradictory? I pointed this out, but you made no reference to it. I would ask that you acknolwedge that your view is indeed self-contradictory, or explain why not. Here's what I wrote: quote:
I find it amazing that you hold to the following:
a)Christ never did anything during His life on earth, the purpose of which was to reveal God's character, that was even remotely like what happened during the flood.
b)God has never acted fundamentally differently in principle than how Christ acted while here on earth.
You've stated both these points on this thread several time. It should be clear that these points are mutually contradictory, yet you somehow hold to both. To simultaneously hold to mutually contradictory positions is indeed a "strange act".
End of quote. Back to your post
God not only causes or permits things to happen when people refuse to heed His help and warnings and pleadings to save themselves from promised coming doom, He also punishes them.
These aren't two separate things. God punishes people by allowing them to suffer the results of their choices. Inspiration makes this point countless times. Look how often EGW quotes, "Oh Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself." She does it for the destruction of the wicked, the last plagues, the destruction of Jerusalem. If we choose to act contrary to the principles of God's governement, we bring ruin upon ourselves, not because God gets ticked off, but because only His principles lead to life.
And then He will resurrect them at the end of time and punish them again before He eliminates them in the lake of fire.
We had a thread at one time about the resurrection of the wicked, didn't we? If you think the only reason God resurrects the wicked is to inflict pain upon them, I think your understanding of this event is limited. God will act in no way differently than how He revealed Himself through His Son Jesus Christ. ALL that we can know of God was revealed in the life of Christ. God will act just like that. He can do no other; that's His character. When we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father.
By the way, I noticed you didn't mention the water that fell from the sky during the Flood. Why not? Also, what makes you think the subterranean water was under pressure of its own accord? How did it get that way, and why wasn’t it that way in the beginning? What caused the change?
The water from beneath is what fell from above. That should have been obvious; I didn't think it needed mentioning. What caused these things to happen is the same thing that causes the stars to burn out, which are burning out by the millions. It's the same thing that causes entropy to rise. The same that creates black holes and neutron stars. It's the immense power of sin. Have you ever stopped to think how it is that stars millions of light years away die? That should give a small inkling as to the destructive power of sin.
You seem to believe the only way water could have gushed or burst forth the bowels of the earth is due to naturally occurring pressurization.
It would have un pressurization. That's what I said. I didn't say "naturally occuring pressurization" but simply that it had to be under pressure. Otherwise it wouldn't have gone up.
What makes you so absolutely certain there is no other possible explanation.
An elementary knowledge of physics.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7174
11/14/05 07:52 PM
11/14/05 07:52 PM
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This is from http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=506.This is the first few paragraphs of the article. It brings out the point that I've been making that the event which triggered the flood was the waters bursting forth from the depths. quote:
Though we are far from a full understanding of the Flood, the Bible does give us a clue when it says, on that "same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:11_12). Geologists note three succinct mechanisms which God used that bear our consideration.
The trigger for the rest was that "all the fountains of the great deep" were ruptured. The fountains may have been underwater volcanos or materials from deep inside spewing out into the ocean basins.
Evidently there were great subterranean chambers of water which belched forth their contents causing volcanism and tectonism on a broad scale. After being emptied some collapsed to become deep sedimentary basins which uplifted later in the Flood to form mountain chains.
Today when a volcano erupts under water, or if there is an underwater earthquake or mud slide, it causes a tsunami or tidal wave; a dynamic energy wave which pushes water toward the continents, devastating coastal areas. At the start of the Flood all the fountains of the great deep were rent open sending repeated pulses of water toward the continents from every direction bringing sediments and marine fossils to the land. Cyclic ocean currents and tidal actions would have left their imprint on these sediments.
Along the mid-ocean ridges once molten rock and other super hot fluids would have encountered the relatively cold ocean waters, evaporating huge volumes of sea water, ultimately yielding intense rainfall and precipitating their dissolved solids.
Torrential rain poured down. This was a special rain for forty days and forty nights but it continued for a hundred and fifty days, through the first half of the Flood. This continually replenished source of water would have bombarded the earth, eroding and redepositing sediments on a global scale....
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7175
11/15/05 02:49 PM
11/15/05 02:49 PM
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OP
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What do you think about theory that there was an envelop or window of water in the atmosphere that made the entire earth an even tropical temperature from pole to pole and that this water fell to the earth when Jesus caused it to rain? And that this source of water united with water from beneath the world to cause a Flood? Sister White describes two sources of water, not one - heaven and earth. It doesn't say water from beneath shot up and then fell from above. I believe the source of pressure was Jesus, not nature. It didn't exist until He caused it. Everything in nature obeys His voice. Jesus upholds the laws and forces that nature obeys. They are in perfect harmony with His will. quote:
"The fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, AND the windows of heaven were opened," and the scoffers were overwhelmed in the waters of the Flood.
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7176
11/15/05 07:57 PM
11/15/05 07:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Before answering your post, did you notice that your statements above are self-contradictory? I pointed this out, but you made no reference to it. I would ask that you acknolwedge that your view is indeed self-contradictory, or explain why not. Here's what I wrote:
quote:
I find it amazing that you hold to the following:
a)Christ never did anything during His life on earth, the purpose of which was to reveal God's character, that was even remotely like what happened during the flood.
b)God has never acted fundamentally differently in principle than how Christ acted while here on earth.
You've stated both these points on this thread several time. It should be clear that these points are mutually contradictory, yet you somehow hold to both. To simultaneously hold to mutually contradictory positions is indeed a "strange act".
End of quote. Back to your post
What do you think about theory that there was an envelop or window of water in the atmosphere that made the entire earth an even tropical temperature from pole to pole and that this water fell to the earth when Jesus caused it to rain? And that this source of water united with water from beneath the world to cause a Flood? Sister White describes two sources of water, not one - heaven and earth. It doesn't say water from beneath shot up and then fell from above.
I think this is very likely. It is in harmoney with the creationist models, as well as inspiration it seems to me.
I believe the source of pressure was Jesus, not nature.
This is a very odd belief. It's contrary to science, reason and inspiration. When you drill for oil, the oil will burst forth because it's under pressure. You're aware of this, right? Do you think this is because Jesus is pressuring it, not nature? Do you think water would act any different than oil? The forces under the earth are continually present, just like gravity is. Do you think when someone falls to earth it is not because of nature, but because Jesus makes him fall?
It didn't exist until He caused it. Everything in nature obeys His voice. Jesus upholds the laws and forces that nature obeys. They are in perfect harmony with His will.
This is obviously untrue. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth. God comes to save, not to destroy. Satan is the destroyer; God the restorer. Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonitist power. There are all statements from inspiration. Look at what happened to Job. It was not God who caused these things to happen to him, but Satan.
Satan is the bad guy; God the good one. We should be able to distinguish the two.
The fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, AND the windows of heaven were opened," and the scoffers were overwhelmed in the waters of the Flood.
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities.
I agree with this, provided your use of voice is the same as what we find in inspiration.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7177
11/16/05 12:15 AM
11/16/05 12:15 AM
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OP
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Tom, I am not going to respond to your opinion and assumption that my views are contradictory. Please take the time to reword your objection. Thank you.
I do not believe the core of the earth was under pressure before the Flood, or that Jesus had to work to restrain the water above or beneath the earth from naturally bursting their boundaries and killing everyone on the planet. However, it is different today, this side of the Flood. There is a triple curse resting upon it. Nature is not the same as it was before the Flood.
1BC 1085
All nature is confused; for God forbade the earth to carry out the purpose He had originally designed for it. Let there be no peace to the wicked, saith the Lord. The curse of God is upon all creation. Every year it makes itself more decidedly felt (MS 76a, 1901). {1BC 1085.5}
The first curse was pronounced upon the posterity of Adam and upon the earth, because of disobedience. The second curse came upon the ground after Cain slew his brother Abel. The third most dreadful curse from God, came upon the earth at the Flood (4SG 121). {1BC 1085.6}
7BC 946, 947
9 (Rev. 22:10-12). The Boundary of Divine Forbearance.--God is long-suffering, not willing that any should perish; but His forbearance has a limit, and when the boundary is past, there is no second probation. His wrath will go forth and He will destroy without remedy. {7BC 946.5}
When men, being in power, oppress and spoil their fellow men, and no earthly tribunal can be found to do justice, God will interpose in behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. He will punish for every act of oppression. No earthly wisdom can secure wrongdoers against the judgments of heaven. And when men put their trust in earthly powers instead of their Maker, when they become lifted up in pride and self-confidence, God will in His own time make them to be despised (Letter 122, 1900). {7BC 946.6}
10 (Ps. 27:5; 91:9, 10; Isa. 2:17-21; see EGW on Gen. 6:17; Rev. 20:9, 10, 14). God the Refuge of His People.--Before the Son of man appears in the clouds of heaven, everything in nature will be convulsed. Lightning from heaven uniting with the fire in the earth, will cause the mountains to burn like a furnace, and pour out their floods of lava over villages and cities. Molten masses of rock, thrown into the water by the upheaval of things hidden in the earth, will cause the water to boil and send forth rocks and earth. There will be mighty earthquakes and great destruction of human life. But as in the days of the great Deluge Noah was preserved in the ark that God had prepared for him, so in these days of destruction and calamity, God will be the refuge of His believing ones . . . [Ps. 91:9, 10; 27:5 quoted] (Letter 258, 1907). {7BC 946.7}
Destruction From Earth and Sky.--The hand of Omnipotence is at no loss for ways and means to accomplish His purposes. He could reach into the bowels of the earth and call forth His weapons, waters there concealed, to aid in the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world. . . . {7BC 946.8}
Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth, which He will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish His purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God (ST Jan. 3, 1878). {7BC 946.9}
(Ps. 144:5, 6; Nahum 1:5, 6.) Destruction by Water and Fire.--In the bowels of the earth God has in reserve the weapons that He will use to destroy the sinful race. Since the Flood, God has used, to destroy wicked cities, both the water and the fire that are concealed in the earth. In the final conflagration God will in His wrath send lightning from heaven that will unite with the fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and pour forth streams of lava [Nahum 1:5, 6; Ps. 144:5, 6 quoted] (MS 21, 1902). {7BC 946.10}
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7178
11/16/05 07:07 AM
11/16/05 07:07 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM, how's this? Your statements above apear to me to be self-contradictory. I would ask that you acknolwedge that your view is indeed self-contradictory, or explain why not. Here's what I wrote: quote:
I find it amazing that you hold to the following:
a)Christ never did anything during His life on earth, the purpose of which was to reveal God's character, that was even remotely like what happened during the flood.
b)God has never acted fundamentally differently in principle than how Christ acted while here on earth.
You've stated both these points on this thread several time. I would think it should be clear that these points are mutually contradictory, yet you somehow hold to both, which I don't understand. Please enlighten me.
Thank you.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7179
11/16/05 07:28 AM
11/16/05 07:28 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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It is sin which caused nature to change. Had there been no sin, nature would have been as God designed it. Sickness, suffering and death are the work of an antagonistic power (This is from the Spirit of Prophesy. This antagonisit power is not God.) God is the good guy. He is the restorer. Satan is the destroyer (also from the Spirit of Prophecy). It is important to distinguish between the two. Here's a quote from The Great Controversy. quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.
Notice the part in bold. There is no more decisive tentimony of God's hatred of sin and the certain punishment that will fall upon the quilty than the destruction of Jerusalem! And what happened there? God withdrew His protection, which led to there destruction. There is no more decisive testimony of certain punishment than this.
This is worth considering.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7180
11/16/05 03:25 PM
11/16/05 03:25 PM
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OP
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Tom, you and I both agree Jesus never killed anyone with a Flood while on earth as a human being. He spoke of it and things similar happening in the past and that will happen in the future, but during His sojourn here He never killed anyone with a Flood, or in any other fashion. However, Jesus did do things that were fundamentally similar in principle. For example, cursing the tree, driving out the unholy traffickers, and issuing woes. I say similar in principle because they hinted at judgment to come. But it was dissimilar in that He did not execute judgment, as in the Flood, while on earth. He said that He was waiting to reward people according their works until He returns.
I see nothing contradictory about this understanding of the truth. Now, please, let's move on. Thank you. If you are still convinced it is wrong, then prove it by telling the truth and letting it speak for itself. Please do not spend time dissing on my view. Stick to the truth.
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7181
11/16/05 03:32 PM
11/16/05 03:32 PM
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OP
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Tom, the fall of Jerusalem and the demise of the Jews at the hands of heathens is one way God deals with unsaved sinners. But it is not the only way. God chose not to draw upon His natural arsenals to punish and destroy the Jews. Instead, He chose to allow the Romans to do it for Him. Permitting earthly armies and kingdoms to conqueror His people is just one of many ways God deals with sinful, erring people. He did not use this method to deal with the sinfulness of the antediluvians.
Tell me, when did Jesus use a heathen army to punish and dispossess the Jews when He was here?
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Re: The Arsenals of God's Wrath - An Inspired Account
#7182
11/16/05 03:49 PM
11/16/05 03:49 PM
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Active Member 2012
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quote:
Tom, the fall of Jerusalem and the demise of the Jews at the hands of heathens is one way God deals with unsaved sinners. But it is not the only way. God chose not to draw upon His natural arsenals to punish and destroy the Jews. Instead, He chose to allow the Romans to do it for Him. Permitting earthly armies and kingdoms to conqueror His people is just one of many ways God deals with sinful, erring people. He did not use this method to deal with the sinfulness of the antediluvians.
Tell me, when did Jesus use a heathen army to punish and dispossess the Jews when He was here?
Your last question is the one that blows your view to pieces. Your question is in harmony with my position. It is your position that it is not in harmony with.
That is, I ask you, when did Jesus use a heathen army to punish and dispossess the Jews when He was here, or do anything remotely similar? YOU are the one who needs to provide an example, not me, because YOU are the one who says Jesus acts in this way, not me. So why are you asking me?
YOU are the one who said Jesus did not do anything even remotely like the flood. And yet you maintain that Jesus did nothing on earth which is fundamentally different in principle than the flood. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
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