Hello Mike

2 Cor.5:17 is always true. The text itself tells us when.

"If anyone is in Christ..." "They are [now]..."

What does it mean to be "in Christ?"

Perhaps we can get to closer scrutiny of your questions by answering this question?

David T Battler

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Courage is fear that has
said it's prayers.
Therefore, the Bible
says: "Be of good
courage!"

Here ares ome questions that were posted earlier which have not been addressed yet:

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I like what Paul said in Phil 2:13 - That it is God who works in us both to will and to do those things that are pleasing to Him. But just how complete is that promise? Is it a partial promise that depends on how well informed we are?

And what about Rom chapter 6. In what sense is it true that the old man habits of sin are crucified and we no longer serve sin?

And Eph 4:24 and 1 Peter 1:23? When do we receive the sinless seed of the new man?

And that hard text in 1 John 3:9? What do we do with that inspired promise?

And as one person wrote - 1 Cor 10:13 doesn't seem to allow room to excuse sin. Does that mean we can live without sin now? Or must we first be born again and receive the seed of the new man before we can go and sin no more?

And finally, when is 2 Cor 5:17 true?

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So far, David suggested that the "when" in 1 Cor 5:17 is true as soon as we are in Christ. But then David asked another question:

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What does it mean to be "in Christ?"

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Amen! A great question. Could it be that to be in Christ is the opposite of being out of Christ? To be out of Christ is probably the same as being in or of the world. See Eph 2:12 and 1 John 2:16. So to be in Christ could very well mean to be in or of heaven. See Eph 1:3 and 2:6.

Jesus promised that the "kingdom of God is within" those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes and embracing His teachings. See Luke 17:21 and Rev 14:4. Thus, it seems fair to say that to be in Christ means to be Christlike. See Gal 2:20 and 1 Peter 4:1,2.

Which would also suggest, according to 1 Cor 5:17, that our former habits of sin are replaced by the fruit of the Spirit WHEN we are in Christ. There doesn't appear to be an evolutionary process of becoming less and less sinful once self has been crucified and we have been born again in Christ. Apparently becoming less sinful was a process that led up to the rebirth of the new man.

What do you think?

And what about the other questions and passages of Scripture?

Mike

I’ve been cleaning out my filing cabinet, and came across this, which I saved from an old Sabbath School quarterly. I think it is from August 9, 1995. I am posting it exactly as it was in the quarterly – all emphasis is the original author’s.

IMPERFECT PEOPLE CAN HAVE VICTORY OVER SIN (Rom. 14:23).

How does Ephesians 4:13 define what the New Testament writers mean by Christian perfection?

“A perfect man” (KJV) or “mature manhood” (RSV) is defined as “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.” In other words, Christian perfection is Christlikeness. Since “God is love,” Christ perfectly exemplified love. We are told that we cannot equal Christ’s infinitely perfect character, but that we should copy it. (See Testimonies, vol. 2, p. 549.) We may reflect His love and live without committing sin. (See Rev. 3:21.)

“He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God.” – Ellen G. White, Review and Herald, March 10, 1904.

What indications do we have that not all human imperfection is sin? John 9:41; 15:22; Rom. 14:23.

All sin is imperfection, but not all imperfection is sin. By perfection, the Bible means a life filled with the Holy Spirit and, therefore, free from acts of sin – whether in thought, feeling, word, or deed. The perfection Jesus gives us before His second advent is not freedom from our fallen humanity. (See 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Phil. 3:20, 21.) Though we remain fallen in nature, yet we can have complete victory in Christ. (See The Desire of Ages, p. 671.) Because we remain fallen human beings until Jesus comes, everything we do is tinged with human imperfection. Imperfect minds and bodies are not capable of doing anything absolutely perfect. But not everything we do is sin.

If all human imperfection were sin, Jesus could not have made the statement recorded in John 15:22. Not until the people had received light from Jesus did God regard the imperfect works they were doing as sin. God knows that our natural human imperfections are the result of spiritual, mental, and physical fallenness. By contrast, “sin is lawlessness” (I John 3:4, RSV). Christian preachers or writers would not claim that their efforts are free from human imperfection. But they are not sinning while they preach and write. But if God gives them greater light, and they refuse to present that light, then they are sinning. “Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin” (Rom. 14:23, RSV).

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

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Phil 2:13 - That it is God who works in us both to will and to do those things that are pleasing to Him. But just how complete is that promise? Is it a partial promise that depends on well informed we are?

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Does God ever make partial promises? He makes conditional promises, "if you follow me" type promises, but never partial promises. Also, is it not true that God judges us based on the amount of truth we have? I have heard and read about tribes in the deepest jungles that have worshipped God and kept His commandments without ever having been taught by people that this is right, they just knew. Once we begin to follow God, we learn His ways as long as we are open to hearing His voice.

I'll have to get back to you on the rest.

Amen, Sarah. So, the promises of God are always complete, but our experience may not be? Does that mean then we can experience God's promises partially? But if they are complete promises then how can we experience them partially? So would it be fair to say that we either experience His promises completely or not at all?

And Cathy, do you agree with the quarterly? Is it actually possible to channel a sinless experience through a sinful vessel? The idea that since we possess a sinful nature means that we cannot produce untainted sinlessness seems somewhat contradictory to me. What about you?

Doesn't the Bible say something about born again believers partaking of the divine nature? See 2 Peter 1:4. If thus connected to Christ then how can we say our experience is tainted by fallen flesh nature?

Jesus possessed fallen flesh nature (see Rom 8:3) and yet no one would dare say that His experience was tainted with corruption. So why would we want to conclude any differently regarding converted Christians? See 1 Peter 2:21,22 and 4:1,2.

Please don't misunderstand my questions. I'm not attacking anybody's beliefs or accusing anyone of believing something wrong. I ask them in all innocense and honesty.

Mike

I hope I didn't somehow kill this thread.

Mike

Sorry to be so slow in responding Mike. I've been proccupied with other things lately. If I didn't agree with the quarterly I would not have saved it, or posted it here.

I agree that we partake of Christ's nature, but as long as we retain these corruptible bodies, we are still fallen and sinful. Of ourselves we are totally corrupt and evil. The only good that anyone has is due to the Holy Spirit working within them, even those who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior.

Since I surrendered my life to God, I have changed. I recognize it myself, because I do not have the same feelings or struggles I had in the early days of my walk with Christ. Others recognize that I am different also. But I know that if I were to choose now to turn my back on God and grieve away His Spirit, I would become even worse than I was before. None of my goodness is due to my own efforts at all. And even now, when I desire to do good things for others, if I examine my own heart, I find that my good motives are still always mixed with selfish ones.

I can live without committing sin, in the strength that God makes available to me just for the asking, but I cannot claim any credit for accomplishing this on my own, and I certainly can't lay any claims to being sinless. Believe me, that is far from the case. Very, very far!

But thanks be to God who gives us the victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ!

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

Dear Cathy,

Thank you for sharing your testimony. God is good. Thank you Jesus. Also, I did not mean for your to feel like I was singling you out in this thread. I'm assuming others are a part of this too.

I'd like to make a few comments and ask a couple questions of everyone reading these threads. But I hesitate because I'm a bit afraid of coming across as not appreciating the precious things people have already written in this thread. So, please forgive me if I seem out of touch or insensitive. The truth is just the opposite.

Cathy wrote:

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I agree that we partake of Christ's nature, but as long as we retain these corruptible bodies, we are still fallen and sinful. Of ourselves we are totally corrupt and evil. The only good that anyone has is due to the Holy Spirit working within them, even those who have not accepted Jesus as their Savior.

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Amen. It is so true that we are burdened with the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh from the moment of conception, and as we age and mature those evil inherited propensities only get worse and stronger as we add insult to injury by cultivating our own batch of evil propensities through the poor choices and character we develop.

But in light of this discussion I would like to also draw attention to some insights that have been a blessing to me as I walk daily with my best friend Jesus. I have discovered that the Bible and Ellen White both make a distinction between the corruption associated with sinful flesh and sinful character. And I have come to realize that undestanding this distinction opens doors of comprehension that were previously closed.

Please, allow me to explain. We are all conceived and born into this world with inherited sinful flesh propensities. These evil inclinations are recorded in our DNA and represent our natural instincts. They communicate themselves in the form of unholy desires clamoring for recognition and sinful expression in either thought, word, deed or feeling. Initially they merely constitute a temptation and are discerned consciously as choices we may opt to indulge.

Unfortunately though, at least until we are born again, from infancy we automatically and instinctively experience the desires of our fallen flesh cravings and inclinations. The result of these unholy expressions is sinful "old man" character. That is, sinful character is the fruit or byproduct of obeying the evil propensities originating with our sinful flesh (and most often stimulated by evil angels, agencies or avenues tempting us).

The important thing to remember here is the distinction between sinful flesh and sinful character. They are NOT one and the same thing. The way this insight is helpful in light of this discussion is that possessing sinful flesh is not a sin. God does not hold us accountable for the unholy propensities and clamorings that originate with our sinful flesh. Why? Because they are only temptations. And it is not a sin to be tempted.

It is not the evil desires of fallen flesh that makes us sinful and unworthy of eternal life. Rather, it is our sinful character that disqualifies us for the communion of heavenly people and places. In judgment it is character that determines our eternal destiny, and not the fact that our inherited flesh clamors and craves evil expression.

Jesus inherited the same "sinful flesh" (Romm 8:3) all of us were born with, however, unlike us He did not develop sinful character by obeying the unholy clamorings of His sinful flesh. I realize there are many sweet, God-fearing Christians who heatedly reject this truth about the human nature of Jesus. And I sympathize with their motives.

However, I have found that once a person understands the difference between the evil propensities of sinful flesh versus the evil propensities of sinful character they are moreapt to agree with Paul's conviction that Jesus was born with sinful flesh the same as the rest of us. But it needs to be made painfully clear that although Jesus experienced the same sinful flesh temptations (and much more) that we endure on daily basis, He never ever once yielded and thus He never developed sinful character.

Unlike us Jesus never experienced the evil propensities affliated with sinful character simply because He never developed sinful character. But just like us Jesus is very familiar with what it feels like to resist the continual bombarding from within and without by sinful flesh temptations. And He never sinned and never desired to sin even though His fallen flesh craved to sin.

This brings me back to a point addressed earlier in this thread - possessing sinful flesh does not, in and of itself, make us unfit for eternal life. Our fitness for heaven does not depend on our first birth but rather upon our rebirth. It is character that decides destiny. And character is the stuff of choices rather than inheritance. We do not inherit heaven, we must choose Jesus and heaven is part of the package.

These things lead me to believe that any corruption we possess, which unfits us for heaven, is related to our character choices rather than to our inherited sinful flesh.

And so logically I am also led to conclude that whatever we are able to experience as born again believers abiding in Christ filled with the fullness of the Godhead by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit who graciously empowers us from within to imitate the sinless example of Jesus - partaking of the divine nature - that if all these things are true of us that the fruit of our connection to Jesus will be sinless and void of corruption.

That is, the character choices we make as a result of partaking of the divine nature is reflected in Christlike character. It is the same quality of character that Jesus Himself developed as a result of His connection to God and through partaking, as a human, of the divine nature. These divine connections transcends the corruption associated with sinful flesh and elevates it, as it were, to heavenly places. Thus, it is not corrupted by sinful flesh because it isn't passing through human channels but rather through the divine nature.

I would appreciate hearing from others their response to what I just shared.

Cathy also wrote:

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I can live without committing sin, in the strength that God makes available to me just for the asking, but I cannot claim any credit for accomplishing this on my own, and I certainly can't lay any claims to being sinless. Believe me, that is far from the case. Very, very far!

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Amen. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and fruit. And so long as we are hid in Christ we stand before the Father without stain or blame or corruption. But does that mean we are also sinless in the ultimate sense - i.e., physically, mentally and spiritually? Not at all, eh?

But does it mean that we can hid ourselves in Christ with concealed or unconfessed moral imperfections? Certainly not. Then what are we in Christ? Most of us, when discussing conversion, are very quick to confess our sinfulness even though we also believe that in Christ we are declared sinless.

But how true is this confession? Can we truly be considered "converted" if in fact our life is full of unconquered known moral imperfections. Will God impute the justifying righteousness of Christ to cover known moral defects of character?

Or does God only justify confessed and forsaken sins and sins of ignorance? And if this is so, then what can we call a sin of ignorance? Can we classify known moral defects of character a sin of ignorance? If not, then what are we referring to when we let others know that we are not sinless?

Again, I hope you don't think I'm being unlovely by asking all these questions. I don't want to offend anyone. But I would enjoy discussing them with whoever is interested in this subject.

Mike

Very well put, Mike. Although I may not agree entirely with your specific choice of words, that is the best description I have ever seen of Christ's human nature. I got into an argument with a pastor once, who insisted that Christ's human nature was that of Adam before the fall. As I was doing research to present my case to him, I looked up the word "sinful" in the dictionary and concluded that it was not the proper word to use in connection with Jesus in any way. Since then, I prefer to use the word "fallen" to describe His human nature. Some would say that the meaning is the same, but I see a very subtle difference between the two words. However, your explanation is clear enough so that I can see that you actually understand the issue in very much the same way that I do.

This is a very important issue, and it is too bad that there is so much controversy over it within the Adventist church.

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The Lord is the strength of my life and my portion forever.

Hello Everyone,

Cathy, thank you for sharing how you studied to know the truth about the human nature of Jesus and the ways you labored to express your thoughts in a manner not causing more confusion than solutions. As you noticed I too like to use the phrase "fallen flesh" as much as the phrase "sinful flesh." While they pretty much mean the same thing the one is more palatable than the other, isn't it?

I'm wondering though if anyone, including you Cathy, would like to respond to the following questions posted earlier?

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Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith and fruit. And so long as we are hid in Christ we stand before the Father without stain or blame or corruption. But does that mean we are also sinless in the ultimate sense - i.e., physically, mentally and spiritually? Not at all, eh?

But does it mean that we can hid ourselves in Christ with concealed or unconfessed moral imperfections? Certainly not. Then what are we in Christ? Most of us, when discussing conversion, are very quick to confess our sinfulness even though we also believe that in Christ we are declared sinless.

But how true is this confession? Can we truly be considered "converted" if in fact our life is full of unconquered known moral imperfections. Will God impute the justifying righteousness of Christ to cover known moral defects of character?

Or does God only justify confessed and forsaken sins and sins of ignorance? And if this is so, then what can we call a sin of ignorance? Can we classify known moral defects of character a sin of ignorance? If not, then what are we referring to when we let others know that we are not sinless?

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Thank you and God bless,

Mike