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How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 #84601
01/29/07 09:01 PM
01/29/07 09:01 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I also agree that most prophecies are conditional prophecies, but there are also prophecies that are not conditional.


How do you know they are not conditional? Which prophesies do you have in mind? (I can think of a few; we'll see if they match)

=====

Renamed as new topic created from this and subsequent posts. - Daryl

Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 02/01/07 06:42 PM.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #84605
01/29/07 09:23 PM
01/29/07 09:23 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
What about, for instance, the time prophecies, particularly the 70 week prophecy?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Daryl] #84607
01/29/07 09:48 PM
01/29/07 09:48 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The 70 week prophecy certainly had a conditional aspect to it, as it involved the free will choice of Israel. That is, Israel could have chosen to accept Christ. That would have had a profound impact upon the time prophecies.

=====

To rename topic only. - Daryl

Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 02/01/07 10:40 PM.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #84652
01/31/07 01:08 PM
01/31/07 01:08 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
The prophecies which are not conditional are those which express the general purpose of God for humanity - for instance, the prophecies about the first and the second coming of Christ are not conditional, although there might be some conditional details about them (for instance, Christ could have come long ago if His people had fulfilled the conditions necessary for this to happen); the final events, and the millennium and post-millennium events are not conditional. I also believe Daniel's time prophecies are not conditional, because God already knew that Israel wouldn't accept Christ.

=====

To rename topic only. - Daryl

Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 02/01/07 10:39 PM.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #84676
01/31/07 11:41 PM
01/31/07 11:41 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The prophesies about God's general plan for humanity are unconditional in the sense that they will happen. The timing is conditional. For example, when Christ comes again is conditional. Often EGW wrote, "Christ could have come before this," which shows it is conditional. In fact, Ellen White tells us what it is conditional upon, in this well known statement:[/color]

Quote:
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1}

It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain. {COL 69.2}


The last paragraph tells us that it is our privilege to hasten Christ's coming, which clearly is not possible if His coming were for a fixed date.

Regarding the prophecies of Daniel, according to the principles of Jer. 18, they must have been conditional, at least the ending of it, which should be clear to see. That is, Israel had every opportunity to repent and accept Christ. They didn't have to reject Him. To assert that the prophecy was unconditional is to assert that it had to happen, which is to assert that Israel had to reject Christ, which is to assert that Israel did not have free will.

By the way, whether a prophecy is conditional or not has nothing to do with what God knows. It has to do with whether or not the prophecy has conditions. Conditional means "subject to, implying, or dependent upon a condition."


=====

To rename topic only. - Daryl

Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 02/01/07 10:38 PM.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #84679
02/01/07 01:53 PM
02/01/07 01:53 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
The 70 week prophecy wasn't conditional as it clearly stated that Israel had 70 weeks to make a choice. They had the choice within that time period to either repent or not repent. They chose not to repent. When the 70 weeks came to an end, the choice they made was cemented in stone.

Within that same time period there were other things that were cemented in stone. The final week of the 70 week prophecy in relation to Christ was Israel's final week to make their choice. They had the choice to either accept Christ as the Messiah, or to reject Him as their Messiah. Even in their rejection of Christ they were given 3 1/2 more years to repent, as that was what remained of the 70 weeks time period. They sealed their rejection of Christ by the stoning of Stephen. They made their choice. The prophetic period ended. This was an unconditional time prophecy in that they had to make a choice within that time period, which they did. Unfortunately, they made the wrong choice.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Daryl] #84680
02/01/07 02:29 PM
02/01/07 02:29 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
"Conditional" means " "subject to, implying, or dependent upon a condition." I wrote that the end of the prophecy was clearly conditional. Here it is:

Quote:
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.(Dan. 9:26)


Had Israel repented, this would not have happened. Hence it was conditional, right?

Also the way you phrased things makes it appear to me that perhaps you are thinking in terms of God's arbitrarily setting a deadline, which isn't at all the case. As Paul points out:

Quote:
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.(Rom. 10:21)


Jesus said:

Quote:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! (Luke 13:34)


God wanted Israel to repent, and would have accept their repentance, whenever it was. God had been patient, and working with them for centuries. If finally came to a point to where they had so hardened their heart (especially when God Himself came and dwelt among them, and they still rejected Him) that there was nothing more that God could do for them as a nation.

(Added "perhaps" which I intended to have in original post) - Tom Ewall

=====

To rename topic only. - Daryl

Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 02/01/07 10:37 PM.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #84684
02/01/07 05:52 PM
02/01/07 05:52 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
Had Israel repented, it would still have been necessary for Christ to die for us.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Daryl] #84685
02/01/07 06:23 PM
02/01/07 06:23 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Had Israel repented, it would still have been necessary for Christ to die for us.


Why are you making this comment? (i.e. what does it have to do with what's been being discussed; I'm not following the train of thought).

=====

To rename topic only. - Daryl

Last edited by Daryl Fawcett; 02/01/07 10:35 PM.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #84686
02/01/07 06:29 PM
02/01/07 06:29 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
What I posted is based on the first part of your post #84680.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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