MM: I disagree. Jesus made baptism a prerequisite. It wasn’t optional. He made it a requirement before His death on the cross.

When did Jesus make this a prerequisite? Do you see baptism is being meritorious in salvation, as something other than a public confession of faith?


MM: The view you are espousing comes short of the glory of God.

Well then so does yours, because it allows for exceptions.

It teaches that people are born again in need of rebirth, in need of confessing and crucifying sinful cultivated habits God chose not to reveal to them.

So does yours, in the exceptions it gives for smoking and polygamy, and whatever other exceptions you allow.

The SC 29 quotes refutes this view.

SC 29 says that before a person can be converted every sinful habit cultivated since birth, (except smoking, polygamy, and whatever other exceptions you all) must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed? Where does it say that? All I've seen you quote is this:



which is bringing out the principles I've been sharing.

TE: When did Jesus make this a prerequisite? Do you see baptism is being meritorious in salvation, as something other than a public confession of faith?

MM: Jesus got baptized because it “fulfilled all righteousness”. (Mat 3:15) He said it is a prerequisite during His explanation to Nicodemus. It is not any more meritorious than Sabbath keeping.

TE: Well then so does yours, because it allows for exceptions.

MM: God is the one who makes exceptions – not me.

TE: So does yours, in the exceptions it gives for smoking and polygamy, and whatever other exceptions you allow.

MM: Are you implying you think your view is no better than what you think of mine? Besides, I do not allow for such exceptions - God does. However, such exceptions are not the rule.

EGW: One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

TE: … which is bringing out the principles I've been sharing.

MM: It seems to me you have been arguing against it. From what I can see, you do not believe God reveals “every spot of defilement” in one ray or gleam. I hear you saying God waits to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits until a more suitable time.

TE: Do you know any converted people whose experience is along the lines of what you are suggesting? I've not met one.

MM: Yes, of course. But it doesn’t mean they never sin. It means they do not sin while they are complying with the conditions, namely, abiding in Jesus.

TE: When did Jesus make this a prerequisite? Do you see baptism is being meritorious in salvation, as something other than a public confession of faith?

MM: Jesus got baptized because it “fulfilled all righteousness”. (Mat 3:15) He said it is a prerequisite during His explanation to Nicodemus. It is not any more meritorious than Sabbath keeping.

So are you saying that once Jesus was baptized, it was no longer possible for a person to be saved without being baptized?

TE: Well then so does yours, because it allows for exceptions.

MM: God is the one who makes exceptions – not me.

TE: So does yours, in the exceptions it gives for smoking and polygamy, and whatever other exceptions you allow.

MM: Are you implying you think your view is no better than what you think of mine? Besides, I do not allow for such exceptions - God does. However, such exceptions are not the rule.

No, I'm pointing out the same argument you are making against my point of view applies equally well to yours. That is, your argument is unsound. It doesn't even work for your own view.

EGW: One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.

TE: … which is bringing out the principles I've been sharing.

MM: It seems to me you have been arguing against it.

No, only against your idea that every sinful habit cultivated from birth (except for the exceptions, such as smoking and polygamy) must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted. That's all I'm arguing against.

From what I can see, you do not believe God reveals “every spot of defilement” in one ray or gleam. I hear you saying God waits to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits until a more suitable time.

As apparently you also believe, for such cases as smoking and polygamy.

TE: So are you saying that once Jesus was baptized, it was no longer possible for a person to be saved without being baptized?

MM: It became a prerequisite when Jesus made it mandatory. Baptism is not optional. Not because I say so, but because Jesus says so. What do you believe?

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

TE: No, I'm pointing out the same argument you are making against my point of view applies equally well to yours. That is, your argument is unsound. It doesn't even work for your own view.

MM: I disagree.

TE: No, only against your idea that every sinful habit cultivated from birth (except for the exceptions, such as smoking and polygamy) must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted. That's all I'm arguing against.

MM: You are twisting what I believe. God making exceptions to the rule in rare circumstances does not do away with the rule.

TE: As apparently you also believe, for such cases as smoking and polygamy.

MM: When God chooses to bend the rules to save someone that is His prerogative. But exceptions such as these do not abrogate the rule. Arguing against the rule based on God making exceptions implicates God – not me.

TE: So are you saying that once Jesus was baptized, it was no longer possible for a person to be saved without being baptized?

MM: It became a prerequisite when Jesus made it mandatory. Baptism is not optional. Not because I say so, but because Jesus says so. What do you believe?

I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith. When do you think Jesus made it mandatory?

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(snip)

TE: No, only against your idea that every sinful habit cultivated from birth (except for the exceptions, such as smoking and polygamy) must be revealed and confessed before one can be converted. That's all I'm arguing against.

MM: You are twisting what I believe. God making exceptions to the rule in rare circumstances does not do away with the rule.

Smoking and polygamy are/were not rare. If the exceptions apply to smoking and polygamy, they surely apply to other things as well. Like drinking for example. The Israelites were allowed to spend their second tithe on strong drink. Were they all lost?

TE: As apparently you also believe, for such cases as smoking and polygamy.

MM: When God chooses to bend the rules to save someone that is His prerogative. But exceptions such as these do not abrogate the rule. Arguing against the rule based on God making exceptions implicates God – not me.

The whole idea of thinking of salvation in relation to rules isn't the right way of looking at it. We are not saved by keeping rules. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. That faith motivates us to live for God. It also binds us to Him. The following describes this well:

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith. When do you think Jesus made it mandatory?

MM: Baptism was mandatory by the time Jesus discussed it with Nicodemus. Do you think it is optional?

TE: The Israelites were allowed to spend their second tithe on strong drink. Were they all lost?

MM: God prohibits dinking strong drink. “The Lord has given special directions in His word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced His prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings.” (Te 42) “Therefore God explicitly forbids the use of wine and strong drink.” (Te 92)

TE: We are not saved by keeping rules. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. That faith motivates us to live for God.

MM: Again, we cannot separate faith and works. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom 10:17) God is the one who established the rules, laws, principles, whatever term you want to use to describe it, which govern His work of saving sinners. And He can bend them to save people if He needs to.

3SM 196
Many do not pray. They feel under condemnation for sin, and they think they must not come to God until they have done something to merit His favor or until God has forgotten about their transgressions. They say, "I cannot hold up holy hands before God without wrath or doubting, and therefore I cannot come." So they remain away from Christ, and are committing sin all the time in so doing, for without Him you can do nothing but evil. {3SM 196.2}

MM: I ran across this quote while searching for something else. “… without Him you can do nothing but evil.” Again, apart from a saving relationship with Jesus, apart from abiding in Him - we can do nothing but sin.

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith. When do you think Jesus made it mandatory?

MM: Baptism was mandatory by the time Jesus discussed it with Nicodemus. Do you think it is optional?

I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith.

Are you saying that before Christ's talk with Nicodemus baptism was not mandatory, but after it, it was?

TE: The Israelites were allowed to spend their second tithe on strong drink. Were they all lost?

MM: God prohibits dinking strong drink. “The Lord has given special directions in His word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced His prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings.” (Te 42) “Therefore God explicitly forbids the use of wine and strong drink.” (Te 92)



I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

TE: We are not saved by keeping rules. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. That faith motivates us to live for God.

MM: Again, we cannot separate faith and works.

This is a tangent. Nobody has suggested this. Why are you saying "again"?

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom 10:17) God is the one who established the rules, laws, principles, whatever term you want to use to describe it, which govern His work of saving sinners. And He can bend them to save people if He needs to.

God doesn't save people by rules. People are saved by faith.

God's principles know no exceptions. These principles are established by His character, which doesn't change.

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith.

MM: Is baptism optional? If not, is it “requisite”.

TE: Are you saying that before Christ's talk with Nicodemus baptism was not mandatory, but after it, it was?

MM: Jesus got baptized because it was a requirement. He confirmed it during His midnight meeting with Nicodemus.

TE: I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

MM: Tom, do you think this passage gives us divine permission to consume strong drink?

TE: God doesn't save people by rules. People are saved by faith.

MM: We are saved by the “rule of faith”. Faith does not save us in a vacuum. We are saved by faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

1BC 1110
We are to become familiar with the Levitical law in all its bearings; for it contains rules that must be obeyed; it contains the instruction that if studied will enable us to understand better the rule of faith and practice that we are to follow in our dealings with one another. No soul has any excuse for being in darkness. Those who receive Christ by faith will receive also power to become the sons of God (Letter 3, 1905). {1BC 1110.4}

TE: God's principles know no exceptions. These principles are established by His character, which doesn't change.

MM: Then how do you explain God winking at sins of ignorance? He says, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” And yet there have been times when He winked at sinning. Did He make an exception?

TE: I believe a person is saved by faith in Christ, and baptism is a public confession of that faith.

MM: Is baptism optional? If not, is it “requisite”.

Inspiration teaches us that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone. We do not earn salvation by anything we do. However the genuineness of our faith is demonstrated by things we do. Baptism is a public confession of the righteousness we have by faith in Jesus Christ.

It seems to me I've answered this three of four times now. I think my answer is Biblical, as well as full and complete. I don't think you need to ask it again. If you do, please make your question as complete as my answer. That is, what exactly are you asking? Your question is rather vague. It seems to me regardless of what you are wanting to ask that my answer would address that.

TE: Are you saying that before Christ's talk with Nicodemus baptism was not mandatory, but after it, it was?

MM: Jesus got baptized because it was a requirement. He confirmed it during His midnight meeting with Nicodemus.

So your previous answer to my question as to when baptism became necessary was inaccurate? You said it was when he spoke to Nicodemus. Now you appear to be saying it was necessary before then. So let me try again. At what point did water baptism become necessary for salvation, if this is indeed what you are suggesting.

TE: I asked you if people who drank would be lost. Are you saying that everyone, without exception, who followed what Deuteronomy 14 records will be lost?

MM: Tom, do you think this passage gives us divine permission to consume strong drink?

I asked you a question. When you answer my question, then I'll answer yours.

TE: God doesn't save people by rules. People are saved by faith.

MM: We are saved by the “rule of faith”. Faith does not save us in a vacuum. We are saved by faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

1BC 1110
We are to become familiar with the Levitical law in all its bearings; for it contains rules that must be obeyed; it contains the instruction that if studied will enable us to understand better the rule of faith and practice that we are to follow in our dealings with one another. No soul has any excuse for being in darkness. Those who receive Christ by faith will receive also power to become the sons of God (Letter 3, 1905). {1BC 1110.4}

Faith is not a rule. We are not saved by rules.

TE: God's principles know no exceptions. These principles are established by His character, which doesn't change.

MM: Then how do you explain God winking at sins of ignorance?

This is entirely in harmony with the principles of God. If God sometimes winked at sins of ignorance, then you would have a valid question.

He says, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” And yet there have been times when He winked at sinning. Did He make an exception?

No. God has always treated sins of ignorance the same way.