What else should I call the repeated statement that Toms conversion wasnt real?

1.I think the statements of Jesus mean exactly what I said in saying the genuiness of our conversion will be shown by the things we do and say.

MM: Great. But I believe “the things we do and say” are, if we complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion in God’s appointed way, in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe. I strongly suspect we disagree.

It sounds to me like you are wanting to make the "things we do and say" the means to converation, rather than the fruit of it. If that's the case, then yes, we disagree.

2.I asked "are none of these people converted"? in regards to non-SDA's who eat pork, drink wine, etc. You really can't answer this question, "no"? You're really unsure about this?

MM: I really cannot say with certainty who is truly, genuinely converted or not. Only God knows. Anything is possible, right?

You really cannot answer the question as to if there are *any* non-SDA Christians who do things like eat pork that will be saved? I find that truly amazing.

3.Yes, most converted Christians are non-SDA's. You're really unsure about this too?

MM: Based on Matthew 28:19 and 20 I agree with Sister White that conversions are “rare”. Jesus said, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” I suspect most so-called conversions are partial and incomplete, that most of them constitute the beginning of the process, not the completion of it, and that most people are ignorant of the difference because they haven't been taught the truth about it.

How does this address my question? There are hundreds more nominal non-SDA Christians than nominal SDA Christians. The "rare" conversions (which, btw wasn't a universal pronouncement, but was qualified) apply, in her writing, take in SDA's, don't they? Just as a hypothetical case, let's say conversions are really, really uncommon, like 1 in a million. That would make for over a thousand converted non-SDA's vs. 20 SDA's. You'd have to have no sense of mathematics, or some really odd assumptions about how likely SDA's are to be converted vs. non-SDA's to not grasp that the majority of converted Christians are non-SDA's.

How frequently a conversion takes place has nothing to do with this. Maybe you are not very good at math, and this is what has led you to make the statements you have that I think conversions are common, when I stated nothing to that extent. Was it my asserting that the majority of converted Christians are non-SDA's that led you to erroneously jump to this conclusion? If so, you should recognize that no frequency of conversion is implied by this statement, only a relative frequency. That is, what is important, in order for my assertion to by true, is the relative assertion of SDA's vs. non-SDA's, not the frequence of either given group by itself.

For example, if we change the estimate above of frequence of conversion to 1 in a thousand, instead of 1 in a million, you'd wind up with over a million converted non-SDA's, and 20,000 or so SDA's.

Do you understand the point?

4.I explained his conversion. Does a five year old need to be able to recite the 10 commandments?

MM: Does a five year old need to be converted?

Um, yes. What an odd question.

Can a five year old comprehend the need for or the meaning of conversion?

Yes.

In what way is a five year old different before and after conversion?

My friend was different because he had given his life to Christ, asked him for forgiveness, and wanted to live as a follower of Christ.

The Jews preferred age 12 – why? Can a five year old experience true, genuine conversion as prescribed and described in Matthew 28: 19 and 20 if they cannot “recite” the 10Cs?

Yes, MM, he can. Ellen White speaks to this in her writings. You're not familiar with this? There are examples of this in Scripture, such as Samuel.

Here’s what God commands us to teach our children:

“And ye shall teach them [i.e., “all these commandments which I command you”] your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates.” (Deut 11:19, 20)

I'm confused as to what you think conversion is. Conversion is represented by Christ knocking on the door of the heart. We hear the knocking and respond. He comes in and fellowships with us. A child can understand this.

5.You stated I "did not experience conversion in God’s appointed way." This seems to imply the Holy Spirit goofed by not following God's appointed way. Actually it's rathy haughty of you to presume to make such a declaration.

MM: I am sorry this dialogue makes you think that I am being “haughty” or that the Holy Spirit “goofed”. I do not believe, based on your brief testimony, that you completed the “patient, protracted process” of conversion on the day you believe you were converted.

I don't need your approval. I have the assurance of the Holy Spirit.

Have you not experienced conversion? If you haven't, I can see why you would be confused as to mine. If you have, I don't see how you could be confused. When one is converted, one knows it.

I believe you embarked upon the process on that day, but I do not believe you completed it, in God’s appointed way, on that day.

I am not being judgmental. I am simply basing my observation on the content of your testimony and the description of true, genuine conversion given in the Bible and the SOP. If this offends you then I am happy to end this dialogue immediately. I am even willing to go back and delete my posts, if that’s allowed on MSDAOL. Let me know what you want me to do.

Here's something Waggoner wrote:



Waggoner has it exactly right. It is everyone's privilege to know the truth, and one holds a truth directly from God, the confusion of others has no bearing on one's confidence, because one's confidence is built on the Rock.

TE: Everything you have written, and are writing, makes me wonder, what do you think conversion is about? Your posts are full of rules that must be followed, and practically devoid of what's really important, which is a relationship with God though Jesus Christ by faith.

MM: Again, I’m sorry.

Regarding what you should do, if you are sincerely sorry for something you've written, I accept that, and there's nothing you need to do beyond that. I'd suggest, if you feel there's something you wrote in error, simply that you perhaps be more careful in the future.

I appreciate your concern. I wasn't really offended by what you wrote, as I think you more just expressed yourself poorly than anything else.

TE: Have you every given your life to Christ? If so, what was the experience like? Did it consist of your reaching the last sinful habit which the Holy Spirit revealed, your confessing it, and then a realization of "O.K., now I have no more sinful habits. I'm converted!" I'm shared my conversion story with you. I'd very interested in hearing yours.

MM: I learned about many of the things Jesus commanded us to obey and observe between the ages of 15 and 17. But I did not embark upon the “patient, protracted process” of conversion until the age of 22. I do not believe I completed the process until I was 35. The reason it took so long is I was taught that overcoming my sinful habits took time and patience, that sinning and repenting was a normal part of the process of sanctification. Thus, I tolerated my frequent failures, even though I was miserable.

In 1995, however, I discovered the truth about conversion and rebirth, the truth as it is in Jesus. I believe I completed the process of conversion at that time. Do I have any more sinful habits God hasn’t “exposed” (SC 29) to my sight yet, that He is allowing me to sin in ignorance until the time is right? I do not believe so. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” (Rom 8:16)

Did discovering and embracing the truth as it is in Jesus cause me to lose the ability and freedom to commit known sins? No. Have I sinned since embracing the truth as it is in Jesus? Unfortunately, I have. The gift of repentance, praise God, empowers me to confess and forsake my sin. The Holy Spirit restores the relationship my sin severed.

But when I faithfully and diligently keep my eyes on Jesus, when I am abiding in Him, when I am walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man I do not sin against my Lord and Saviour or against my fellow humans. Indeed, the truth makes me free. I love it. Thank you, Jesus.

This is an odd testimony of conversion, MM. It has me concerned. Most people's conversion would be along the lines of what I shared, or of what Waggoner said, or of what Paul experienced. That is, the Holy Spirit reveals Christ crucified. One sees one's need for a Savior. One responds to the wooing of the Spirit, and accepts Christ as one's personal Savior.

Your testimony doesn't mention any of these things. There is no mention of the cross, of the love of God, or of faith. This is concerning. Have you ever given your heart to the Lord? Have you ever prayed, "God be merciful to me, a sinner?" Do you understand what it means to say that this is a worth and faithful saying, that Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief? (or is this something which applied only to Paul?)

I do thank you for sharing this with me.

TE: It sounds to me like you are wanting to make the "things we do and say" the means to converation, rather than the fruit of it. If that's the case, then yes, we disagree.

MM: When we complete the process of conversion in God’s appointed way “the things we do and say” will be in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe. I do not believe they are the fruit of conversion; rather I believe they are the fruit of abiding in Jesus. Conversion makes it possible for us to abide in Jesus.


TE: You really cannot answer the question as to if there are *any* non-SDA Christians who do things like eat pork that will be saved? I find that truly amazing.

MM: Saved or converted? Which is it? If they are not observing everything Jesus commanded then I am sure they have not completed the process of conversion in God’s appointed way. But this does not necessarily mean they are not saved. If they are living up to the light they believe is true and right then they are saved. It doesn’t matter if they do not complete the process of conversion before they die. They will come up in the first resurrection.


TE: How does this address my question? There are hundreds more nominal non-SDA Christians than nominal SDA Christians. The "rare" conversions (which, btw wasn't a universal pronouncement, but was qualified) apply, in her writing, take in SDA's, don't they?

MM: The “rare” quote applies to “this age of the world”, not only to SDAs. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.”

TE: Just as a hypothetical case, let's say conversions are really, really uncommon, like 1 in a million. That would make for over a thousand converted non-SDA's vs. 20 SDA's. You'd have to have no sense of mathematics, or some really odd assumptions about how likely SDA's are to be converted vs. non-SDA's to not grasp that the majority of converted Christians are non-SDA's.

MM: Your equation assumes non-SDAs can complete the process of conversion irrespective of the fact they are not observing everything Jesus commanded. The purpose of conversion is to restore people to righteousness and true holiness, not to lead them half way out of darkness.

TE: That is, what is important, in order for my assertion to by true, is the relative assertion of SDA's vs. non-SDA's, not the frequence of either given group by itself.

MM: Again, you are assuming non-SDAs can complete the process of conversion, which they cannot, because they cannot observe everything Jesus commanded.


TE: I'm confused as to what you think conversion is. Conversion is represented by Christ knocking on the door of the heart. We hear the knocking and respond. He comes in and fellowships with us. A child can understand this.

MM: Conversion is a process which results in people obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. You seem to disagree with this definition.

TE: Waggoner has it exactly right.

MM: I agree. “In effect, every person must be converted just as Paul was.” Paul was able to observe everything Jesus commanded the moment he completed the process of conversion.

TE: This is an odd testimony of conversion, MM. It has me concerned. Most people's conversion would be along the lines of what I shared, or of what Waggoner said, or of what Paul experienced.

MM: My conversion experience agrees with what Paul and Waggoner described.

TE: That is, the Holy Spirit reveals Christ crucified. One sees one's need for a Savior. One responds to the wooing of the Spirit, and accepts Christ as one's personal Savior.

MM: My conversion experience included each of these steps.

TE: Your testimony doesn't mention any of these things. There is no mention of the cross, of the love of God, or of faith. This is concerning.

MM: My conversion experience was possible because of the cross, God’s love, and faith.

TE: Have you ever given your heart to the Lord? Have you ever prayed, "God be merciful to me, a sinner?" Do you understand what it means to say that this is a worth and faithful saying, that Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief? (or is this something which applied only to Paul?)

MM: My conversion experience included all of the above.

MM: When we complete the process of conversion in God’s appointed way “the things we do and say” will be in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe. I do not believe they are the fruit of conversion; rather I believe they are the fruit of abiding in Jesus. Conversion makes it possible for us to abide in Jesus.

You are saying:
1.We are not converted until after we do everything Jesus commanded. (first sentence)
2.Being converted makes it possible to abide in Jesus.
3.Do everything Jesus commanded is the fruit of abiding in Jesus.

Do you see the contradiction here? If we can't do everything until after we are converted (because being converted makes it possible to abide in Jesus, and doing everything is the fruit of abiding in Jesus), and we aren't converted until after we do everything, that's a contradiction.

In general, the problem I see in your idea of conversion is that we have to perform good works in order to be converted. It is because of your understanding of conversion that you emphasize sinful habits, and doing everything Jesus commanded, as opposed to mercy, forgiveness and faith, not to mention the cross, or the love of God.

TE: You really cannot answer the question as to if there are *any* non-SDA Christians who do things like eat pork that will be saved? I find that truly amazing.

MM: Saved or converted? Which is it? If they are not observing everything Jesus commanded then I am sure they have not completed the process of conversion in God’s appointed way. But this does not necessarily mean they are not saved. If they are living up to the light they believe is true and right then they are saved. It doesn’t matter if they do not complete the process of conversion before they die. They will come up in the first resurrection.

I think I'm seeing the problem. By "conversion" you mean what most people would call "perfection." By "saved" you mean what most people would call "converted." I think we've been talking past each other to a fair extent.

TE: How does this address my question? There are hundreds more nominal non-SDA Christians than nominal SDA Christians. The "rare" conversions (which, btw wasn't a universal pronouncement, but was qualified) apply, in her writing, take in SDA's, don't they?

MM: The “rare” quote applies to “this age of the world”, not only to SDAs. “The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.”

Well, now I'm confused again, because you are using the expression "new birth" in the context of conversion. Maybe you understand "new birth" to mean "perfection" as well.

It's obvious you have a different internal lexicon than the rest of us. What does "new birth" imply? Is it the same as "conversion"? I'll assume yes (you can correct me if I guessed wrong). Now conversion is perfection (from above; it's doing "everything Jesus commanded" and not having any sinful habits, which sounds like perfection, but you may have some other definition in mind for perfection, so I'll just say it's what most people think of as perfection.)

Ok, so if conversion = perfection, and new birth = conversion, then new birth = perfection. From earlier in the post you say some will be saved, although they are not converted. Would you also say that some are saved even though they are not born again?


TE: That is, what is important, in order for my assertion to by true, is the relative assertion of SDA's vs. non-SDA's, not the frequence of either given group by itself.

MM: Again, you are assuming non-SDAs can complete the process of conversion, which they cannot, because they cannot observe everything Jesus commanded.

Ok, so you are saying no non-SDA's are converted. Would you also say that no non-SDA's are born again?
I'll stop here. I don't think the rest of the post added anything new.

This topic seems to have gone off-course, or another topic seems to have come in here. I will comment in "Does God wait to reveal sinful habits"

TE: Do you see the contradiction here? If we can't do everything until after we are converted (because being converted makes it possible to abide in Jesus, and doing everything is the fruit of abiding in Jesus), and we aren't converted until after we do everything, that's a contradiction.

MM: I do not view it as contradiction. These are steps in the process of conversion.

TE: In general, the problem I see in your idea of conversion is that we have to perform good works in order to be converted.

MM: Conversion is a process, not a power. The power to be like Jesus is result of abiding in Jesus.

TE: It is because of your understanding of conversion that you emphasize sinful habits, and doing everything Jesus commanded, as opposed to mercy, forgiveness and faith, not to mention the cross, or the love of God.

MM: Were it not for mercy, faith, the cross, forgiveness, and the love of God - none us would be around to experience conversion or rebirth.

TE: I think I'm seeing the problem. By "conversion" you mean what most people would call "perfection." By "saved" you mean what most people would call "converted." I think we've been talking past each other to a fair extent.

MM: Wrong again. By the “process of conversion” I mean the time it takes people to learn about everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe. By “perfecting character” I mean growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit as we abide in Jesus after we complete the process of conversion. By “saved” I mean living up to the light we believe is true and right whether or not we have completed the process of conversion. By “converted” I mean people who have completed the process of conversion. By “new birth, rebirth, born again” I mean people who have completed the process of conversion. These are normal definitions.

TE: From earlier in the post you say some will be saved, although they are not converted. Would you also say that some are saved even though they are not born again?

MM: Again, people are saved if they are living up to the light they believe is true and right. It doesn’t matter if they complete the process of conversion before they die. To be translated alive, however, they must complete the process of conversion.

TE: Ok, so you are saying no non-SDA's are converted. Would you also say that no non-SDA's are born again?

MM: No one is born again if they do not complete the process of conversion. And no can complete it if they do not learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. They may be in the process of converting and living up to the light they have, but they cannot complete the process until learn how to be like Jesus in every way. Again, this does not mean they are lost. Also no one can remain converted if they neglect to “stay converted” moment by moment. We must consciously choose to abide in Jesus or we cease, by default, to continue abiding in Him.

Maybe you should all stop here and establish some word definitions as they relate to the words saved, converted, save, conversion, etc.

We may also need to define how this meets the definition of The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law topic.

Here is how I am using certain words:

By the “process of conversion” I mean the time it takes people to learn about everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe.

By “perfecting character” I mean growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit as we abide in Jesus after we complete the process of conversion.

By “saved” I mean living up to the light we believe is true and right whether or not we have completed the process of conversion.

By “converted” I mean people who have completed the process of conversion.

By “new birth, rebirth, born again” I mean people who have completed the process of conversion.

I am bringing this quote forward from page 4 to demonstrate how conversion and salvation entered the discussion.

................................

MS: The law has no power to convert. But it does have power to convict.

DF: Which goes to show, as Tom as provided, that the Bible says that the law has power to convert.

MM: The power that causes a “radical change” within us is the Holy Spirit – NOT THE LAW. The law, by itself, is powerless. The law is one of many tools the Holy Spirit uses to inspire us to pursue conversion and salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. When “the Spirit of God reveals to him the full meaning of the law, what a change takes place in his heart!” (RC 64) We “cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin.” (FW 95)

OHC 141
The law without faith in the gospel of Christ cannot save the transgressor of law. The gospel without the law is inefficient and powerless. The law and the gospel are a perfect whole. . . . The two blended--the gospel of Christ and the law of God--produce the love and faith unfeigned. {OHC 141.4}

6BC 1070
There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted. . . . The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute. . . . In the councils of heaven, before the world was created, the Father and the Son covenanted together that if man proved disloyal to God, Christ, one with the Father, would take the place of the transgressor, and suffer the penalty of justice that must fall upon him (MS 145, 1897). {6BC 1070.4}

GC 468
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

Here is how I am using certain words:

By the “process of conversion” I mean the time it takes for people to come to the place where they give their heart to Christ.

By “perfecting character” I mean becoming more like Christ in character.

By “saved” I mean the same thing as being converted.

By “converted” I mean people who have given their heart to Christ.

By “new birth, rebirth, born again” I mean the same thing as converted.

By "giving their heart to Christ" I mean the "believing in Christ" or "accepting Christ as one's personal Savior," the process described by Jesus Christ in His interview with Nicodemus, and commented upon by Ellen White in the chapter "Nicodemus" from "The Desire of Ages," page 175, 176.