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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46232
07/15/03 01:23 PM
07/15/03 01:23 PM
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Active Member 2013
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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How then do you explain the text I cited from Rev. 16? If John's understanding of psuche was the same as the Greeks, and if he believed in the immortality of the soul, why did he say that "every living soul DIED that was in the sea"? The text you cite from Job 34 uses both ruach and nashamah. Please consider: quote:
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Both words are likewise used here, and are basically considered synonyms in this text.
Which is it that would have consciousness in death? The breath? Or the spirit that stays in our nose? quote:
Also, Psa. 104.29; 146.3,4; Job 34.14,15; Gen. 7.21,22; Eccl. 3.19-21; 9.3-10 are related to the effects of death ON THE BODY, but where do these texts say anything about the soul?!!
What about Num. 9 where "soul" is translated "dead body"? Thus, to the Bible writers, when you talk about the body, you ARE talking about the soul. At least this is so when using one of several Bible definitions for "soul."
quote:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Another definition for nephesh is "life." Here in this text we are told that the nephesh or "soul" is in the blood.
Thus the soul lives in the blood, and the spirit lives in the nose.
[ July 16, 2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pickle ]
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46233
07/15/03 11:21 PM
07/15/03 11:21 PM
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Bob, if there is no soul that is separate from the body at death, why would Jesus say that someone can kill the body but not the soul? If the body is killed, and the soul not killed (becuase Jesus states it can't be in this instance), then the soul is alive separate from the body.
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46234
07/16/03 11:18 AM
07/16/03 11:18 AM
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Active Member 2013
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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quote:
If the body is killed, and the soul not killed (becuase Jesus states it can't be in this instance), then the soul is alive separate from the body.
Not necessarily. We need to read the Bible with a biblical world view, not with the world view of Plato.
Do you think that perhaps Jesus was using the definition of "life" for the word "soul" here? If that were so, then He would be saying that while man may be able to kill our bodies, man cannot destroy us permanently, for there is a resurrection. Man can't destroy us in the ultimate sense, but God can.
But God can? Do you believe what this text says, Lobo? Do you believe that God can and will kill the soul in hell fire? If you do believe this text, then you do not believe in the innate immortality of the soul, and you believe that the wicked will become ashes one day, and will never be anymore.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46235
07/16/03 02:59 PM
07/16/03 02:59 PM
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quote:
Not necessarily. We need to read the Bible with a biblical world view, not with the world view of Plato.
Actually, this is a biblical view, one held by Israel for a long time and also port of their oral tradition dating back long before Plato.
In fact, that is why when Jesus told the story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 that none of his disciples batted an eye or questioned Him about it; because it was a common understanding among Jews. No contrast this story to one of Jesus others like when He stated that nothing a man ate could make him unclean. In that instance they questioned Jesus to the point where Jesus called them “dull”. The difference was that Jesus appeared to be saying something contrary to their current understanding, and so they questioned him about it.
This fact makes it very clear that what Jesus was saying in Luke 16 was not contrary to their understanding or they would have questioned Him.
quote:
Do you think that perhaps Jesus was using the definition of "life" for the word "soul" here? If that were so, then He would be saying that while man may be able to kill our bodies, man cannot destroy us permanently, for there is a resurrection. Man can't destroy us in the ultimate sense, but God can.
Honestly, I think this is reasonable. However, as we have been discussing, the term “soul” had more than one meaning and it is probably not possible to know exactly what Jesus meaning or usage was in this context.
quote:
But God can? Do you believe what this text says, Lobo? Do you believe that God can and will kill the soul in hell fire? If you do believe this text, then you do not believe in the innate immortality of the soul, and you believe that the wicked will become ashes one day, and will never be anymore.
Yes sir. I never stated that I believe the soul cannot die or is inherently immortal. All evil will die and be put out of existence in the lake of fire. With hell and death also destroyed at that time it would not be possible for the souls of non-believers to live on. However, this does not mean that a persons soul cannot live on outside the body until that time. Like Israel, I believe that man’s soul has conditional immortality in that God grants it until the lake of fire.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46236
07/17/03 12:08 PM
07/17/03 12:08 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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quote:
In fact, that is why when Jesus told the story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 that none of his disciples batted an eye or questioned Him about it;...
Of course, the text doesn't say whether they batted an eye or not. Just like it doesn't say whether they batted an eye when Jesus told the other parable in the same chapter, a parable some might use to say that embezzling is commendable if you're going to be fired.
How literally are you going to take this parable? Do disembodied souls or spirits have eyes, chests, fingers, tongues? Can they feel cool water? If so, why need a resurrection?
Why didn't the rich man ask for a bucket? Why only a finger dipped in cool water? What good would that do?
Where was hell at that point? Where was Abraham's bosom? I've heard different views, and I want to hear yours. quote:
However, as we have been discussing, the term "soul" had more than one meaning and it is probably not possible to know exactly what Jesus meaning or usage was in this context.
The key is to find a verse that unequivocally uses the definition that your present thinking requires.
For 157 verses that don't fit that definition, see http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm. quote:
With hell and death also destroyed at that time it would not be possible for the souls of non-believers to live on.
Do you believe hell is the grave, or something else?
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46237
07/17/03 04:27 PM
07/17/03 04:27 PM
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quote:
How literally are you going to take this parable? Do disembodied souls or spirits have eyes, chests, fingers, tongues? Can they feel cool water? If so, why need a resurrection?
I believe it’s the concepts we are talking about, not the specifics of the story. In other words, the concept of heaven and hell and the soul after death. If you think these concepts were incorrect, then please answer me why Jesus would teach a moral concept by using immoral or inaccurate scriptural concepts? In other words, would Jesus teach a scriptural truth by using unscriptural truths?
If the concept of heaven and hell in scripture is contrary to the concepts Jesus indicated in His story, why would he teach falsehoods like that?
quote:
Where was hell at that point? Where was Abraham's bosom? I've heard different views, and I want to hear yours.
Go to the post on this site referring to “Hell” and you will get your answer. Hell is where some evil angel are being held, where Jesus sent the demon He took out of the man, where he stated that the soul can be killed, and where the demons come out of at the end mentioned in Revelation. It is also called the “abyss” or “bottomless Pit”.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46238
07/18/03 11:13 AM
07/18/03 11:13 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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quote:
I believe it's the concepts we are talking about, not the specifics of the story.
Agreed.
The question is how to differentiate the concepts from the specifics. I believe the concepts being taught are two:- No changing sides after death; no second chance.
- Those that don't believe the Bible won't believe no matter what.
The rest of the details are specifics that might not be so. quote:
In other words, the concept of heaven and hell and the soul after death.
Yet the parable was not designed to teach these things. Those things weren't the "moral of the story."
If we agree that the specifics are false, and if it is questionable which details are specifics, then we really should not use this parable to prove our point. If spirits really don't have body parts, and if they don't particularly like cool water, then we can't use this parable to support the idea of consciousness in death.
I see you don't ascribe to the view that hell had two compartments prior to the cross, and that Abraham and Lazarus were in the good part, while the rich man was in the bad part.
Under http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm#hades I have 8 texts that suggest that the body goes to hell at death. How do you explain the most obvious ones?
Eccl. 9:10 says that there is no knowledge in sheol. How can it be said that there is no knowledge in hell if folk are conscious there?
Why does Job 24:19, 20 say that worms bring about decay in sheol, hell? Why does Ps. 49:14 say that the dead decay in sheol, hell? Why does Ezek. 32:27 say that those in sheol have heads and use swords as pillows?
I believe, from these Bible verses, that sheol or hell is none other than the grave, which is exactly why the KJV translated "hell" as the grave in these verses.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46239
07/18/03 11:56 AM
07/18/03 11:56 AM
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The fact is that while there are more passages in the Bible supporting soul sleep for the dead there are also a number of passages supporting soul immortality. The standard SDA defence is to come up with convoluted explanations re the latter.
Judaism does not dwell upon the state of the dead much. They say that we should not ponder much upon it as it is God's business. Perhaps we should take a leaf out of their book?
Where the Bible is clear, let us be certain. Where the Bible is unclear, let us be tentative instead. The state of the dead is after all not a matter of salvation, is it?
I believe that the weight of Biblical evidence is towards soul sleep but I have no argument with Christians who beleive in soul immortality.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46240
07/18/03 02:02 PM
07/18/03 02:02 PM
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I believe that this is a salvation issue topic in that a wrong belief in this opens the door to other deceptions such as when somebody appears, such as Hitler, who says he or she is having a wonderful time in heaven, and continues to say that everybody will be there as God is too loving a person to condemn anybody. Those of us here may not necessarily believe such an obvious deception, but how many professing or nominal Christians will? It is therefore a means of deceiving people into a false security of being heaven bound no matter how they live on this earth.
A wrong understandign on this is why spiritualism is flourishing today, and will play a major role in the final deceptions just prior to the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ.
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Re: Where Really Are The Dead?
#46241
07/19/03 03:42 AM
07/19/03 03:42 AM
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quote:
The question is how to differentiate the concepts from the specifics. I believe the concepts being taught are two:
1. No changing sides after death; no second chance.
2. Those that don't believe the Bible won't believe no matter what.
The rest of the details are specifics that might not be so.
Then how do you explain Jesus using details that are contrary to biblical truth?
quote:
If we agree that the specifics are false, and if it is questionable which details are specifics, then we really should not use this parable to prove our point. If spirits really don't have body parts, and if they don't particularly like cool water, then we can't use this parable to support the idea of consciousness in death.
Agreed. But if the spirit being alive after death is a falsehood taught by pagans throughout the centuries, why would Jesus perpetuate this non-biblical idea by using it in a story? Can you name another story where Jesus used non-biblical ideas or ideas that were in direct conflict with scripture to teach other ideas that were consistent with scripture?
quote:
I see you don't ascribe to the view that hell had two compartments prior to the cross, and that Abraham and Lazarus were in the good part, while the rich man was in the bad part.
No, where is that stated in scripture? Luke 16 states heaven, not hell for Lazarus.
quote:
Under http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm#hades I have 8 texts that suggest that the body goes to hell at death. How do you explain the most obvious ones?
Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are asking? Please clarify.
quote:
Eccl. 9:10 says that there is no knowledge in sheol. How can it be said that there is no knowledge in hell if folk are conscious there?
Why does Job 24:19, 20 say that worms bring about decay in sheol, hell? Why does Ps. 49:14 say that the dead decay in sheol, hell? Why does Ezek. 32:27 say that those in sheol have heads and use swords as pillows?
I believe, from these Bible verses, that sheol or hell is none other than the grave, which is exactly why the KJV translated "hell" as the grave in these verses.
I guess you missed this text? Isaiah 14:9-11
Also, you did not address the issue of the “abyss”?
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell [tartaroo], and delivered [them] into chains of darkness [zophos], to be reserved unto judgment;” 2 Pet 2:4
“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness [zophos] unto the judgment of the great day.” Jude 1:6
“tartaroo” – “the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews” (Strongs)
“zophos” – “darkness, blackness, the darkness of the nether world” (Strongs)
So from these two texts we see that hell is a dark place that at least some demons (fallen angels) are held (chained) until the judgment.
Now according to Strongs this placed mentioned in these two texts above is literal and where demons and people (souls) are right now.
Now some may say that this place is not literal now. However, when we look at other scripture we will see that that idea just isn’t true.
“And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep [abussos].” Luke 8:31
“abussos “ - “bottomless, unbounded, the abyss, the pit, of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons” (Strongs)
Some may say that the “abyss” the demon was afraid to be sent to in this passage above was this earth. However, that idea has little merit as the demon in question was already on this earth talking to Jesus. In addition, if this idea were true than Jesus would be made a liar as Jesus agreed to not send the demon into the “abyss”, and the pigs Jesus actually sent the demon into were also on this earth. So if the “abyss” is this earth, Jesus, in fact, would have sent the demon to the abyss, contrary to what He promised.
So it’s clear from this passage that the “abyss” is not this earth and that demons are sent there.
Now according to Strongs, the abyss is the same thing mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6, which is HELL. However, to further prove that the “abyss”, “Pit”, and “Hell” are the same thing I will post more scriptural evidence:
“Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.” Isa 14:15
“I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.” Eze 31:16
So now that we have established that Hell, the pit, and the abyss are the same place and that some demons have been sent there being held against their will until judgment, let’s look at if people are being held there as well:
“The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” 2 Pet 2:9
Notice that Peter uses the very same language for people as he did for angels? Angels are “reserved” in hell for judgment (2 Pet 2:6), and people are “reserved” for judgment in this text above. So since we have the same language used we can conclude that they are in the same place, hell.
Now combine these scriptural facts with what Jesus stated about hell, and I think we have a very solid case for the existence of hell now where evil angels and people are being “reserved” for judgment: Matt 5:22, 29-30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45-47; Luke 12:5, 16:23.
Notice that Jesus literally states that people will be SENT to hell in these texts.
So based on LITERAL scripture it is clear that hell is a real literal place where both angels (demons) and evil people are right this very minute waiting for the judgment.
Now that we have established these facts, let’s look at some other interesting facts about this topic:
“For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” 1 Pet 3:18-21
Notice that this text indicates that while Jesus was dead (after the cross) He went to preach to the “spirit” in prison. Notice that these were spirits of people who had died long ago during the time of Noah. Although this text doesn’t say this “prison” is hell or the abyss, Paul say that that is where Jesus went when he died, the pit or hell (Rom 10:7).
So we see that Jesus went to the abyss, pit, or hell while he was dead to preach to those “spirits” who were there.
Now when we look at the end time events it ties this truth all together:
“And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [abussos]. And he opened the bottomless pit [abussos]; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.” Rev 9:1-2
So we see that the demons, who have been held in hell, abyss, or the pit come out of it during the end time events. This again shows that it is a literal place now in existance.
So Bob, with this in mind I have a few questions for you:
1. Where is the abyss that the demon in Luke 8:31 was afraid to be sent?
2. Where is the dark place that at least some demons have already been cast mentioned in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6?
3. If the soul does not exist separate from the body, why did Jesus imply that It can in Matt 10:28?
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