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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46651
07/22/03 11:13 PM
07/22/03 11:13 PM
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Daryl, I totally agree that love is an action, but I think where we disagree is what action?
If I see someone in danger, I help them. If someone asks for help, I give it to them, etc…
This is what Jesus and Paul emphasized and demonstrated by their life.
So what Paul is saying is that by helping this person I have fulfilled the law.
So yes, love is a verb, but the action is not specific to the tables of stone.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46652
07/23/03 12:00 PM
07/23/03 12:00 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Lobo, I see where the difficulty lies: quote:
Yours: Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.
KJV: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
The problem is that you are attempting to arrive at doctrine from a paraphrase instead of a translation. Vs. 7 doesn't mention Israel/Jacob at all, by name or by pronoun.
What vs. 7 is saying is that not all the descendants of Abraham are really Abraham's children.
So not all the descendants of Abraham are really his children, and not all the descendants of Isaac are really his children, and not all the descendants of Jacob are really his children. It's only the children of promise that are counted as the seed, as children, and that includes Gentiles too.
You ask why Paul mentions the Jew first. Well, Christ and the disciples sought to reach the Jews first with the gospel. But remember that the very next verse, Rom. 2:11, says "For there is no respect of persons with God." All are counted as the seed if they are the children of promise.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46653
07/23/03 12:10 PM
07/23/03 12:10 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Lobo, quote:
So Paul is literally stating that if I love my fellow man I have (completed act) fulfilled the law without actually attempting to follow any of it.
That's not quite what Paul said. He was pointing out that those who truly love their neighbor as themselves will not murder, steal, or commit adultery.
Likewise, what Paul did not mention is also true: that those who love God with all their heart will not blaspheme or have other gods before Him. And when they learn that He asks them not to bow down to images, they'll do that commandment too. Out of love.
When Jesus spoke about the keeping of His commandments, He was referring to all His commandments, including the 10 He gave on Mt. Sinai. After all, it was Jesus who was on Mt. Sinai.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46654
07/23/03 04:07 PM
07/23/03 04:07 PM
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quote:
The problem is that you are attempting to arrive at doctrine from a paraphrase instead of a translation. Vs. 7 doesn't mention Israel/Jacob at all, by name or by pronoun.
Bob, the NIV is not a paraphrase, it’s a contextual translation. The KJV tried to do a word for word translation, while the NIV looked at the context to help with the determination of what the writers intent was. As in English, many of the Greek and Hebrew words have more than one meaning. So unless you know the context at times you may not know what the writers intent was. That is why the KJV works well for those that proof-text, because it translated the words without regard to context. That is Why the KJV in Hebrews states that it was Jesus leading Israel into the Promised Land and not Joshua.
I prefer a contextual translation as it just doesn’t use the most common meaning of a word, but uses the context to determine what the writer actual meant.
quote:
So not all the descendants of Abraham are really his children, and not all the descendants of Isaac are really his children, and not all the descendants of Jacob are really his children. It's only the children of promise that are counted as the seed, as children, and that includes Gentiles too.
You are misinterpreting these texts. Nowhere does Paul indicate that the seed of Isaac or Jacob are “children of promise”. The “Promise” (“you will be the father of many nations”) was made exclusively with Abraham. So the “children of promise” literally means a “seed of Abraham”. Nowhere does it say that the “seed of Isaac or Jacob” will relate to “many nations” or the “children of the promise”.
quote:
That's not quite what Paul said. He was pointing out that those who truly love their neighbor as themselves will not murder, steal, or commit adultery.
Likewise, what Paul did not mention is also true: that those who love God with all their heart will not blaspheme or have other gods before Him. And when they learn that He asks them not to bow down to images, they'll do that commandment too. Out of love.
I think you should look up and see what the Greek word translated “fulfilled” means. You will find that it is complete, accomplished, to bring about. Also, one can follow all the tables of stone and still not help others who are in distress, put others first, and not have slaves, etc..
The moral level of the Ten C’s is way below the level Jesus called us to. So stating that we show love to our fellow man by following them is not what Jesus required.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46655
07/24/03 10:42 AM
07/24/03 10:42 AM
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Daryl,
The SDA leadership, like anybody else, must earn respect. It is evident to me that the leadership does not generally respect the membership.
It is clear to me that this forum will not allow the truth re present SDA heresies.
You are therefore most welcome to remove my posting privileges as I will in any case not be posting on this forum again.
Regards
Marcel de Groot for SDA Reform
===========
Reference to a removed topic was edited out in this post. As far as respecting leadership goes, I shall begin a new topic regarding this. As far as doctrines goes, we are allowing discussion of them in this forum as separate topics for each doctrine which is limited to the study of these doctrines, etc.; not a blanket statement attack on the Seventh-day Adventist church and/or its leaders. If you can't respect our forum rules, then you are welcome to go elsewhere, or, if you will stay within our forum rules, continue to participate here with us. - Daryl Fawcett, Administrator.
[ July 24, 2003, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46656
07/24/03 02:23 PM
07/24/03 02:23 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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The NIV gives many examples of how it is a paraphrase, not a translation. Its repeated ommissions from and additions to the Greek text are proof of that. And those ommissions and additions have often more to do with the bias of the paraphraser rather than the context. For example, there is no contextual reason for ommiting "having" from heb. 10:1. Check the original languages before making any conclusions based on the NIV. quote:
Nowhere does Paul indicate that the seed of Isaac or Jacob are "children of promise".
He does in Rom. 9:7, 8. He specifically identifies the children of promise as being the seed called "in" Isaac. quote:
The moral level of the Ten C?s is way below the level Jesus called us to.
Then why did Jesus give us the 10 Commandments? Why did He speak them from Sinai?
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46657
07/24/03 02:26 PM
07/24/03 02:26 PM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Marcel,
I've never seen a case where the leadership didn't respect the membership. But there are some members out there who have done some things that necessitate their earning back the respect they used to receive.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46658
07/24/03 10:05 PM
07/24/03 10:05 PM
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quote:
He does in Rom. 9:7, 8. He specifically identifies the children of promise as being the seed called "in" Isaac.
Bob, you are in error, Paul is specifically talking about the “children of the flesh”. Gentiles were never called that and are not physically (flesh) from the line of Isaac.
“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” (Note – this is the NKJV, do you like it better?)
quote:
Then why did Jesus give us the 10 Commandments? Why did He speak them from Sinai?
Please show me one text were God gave the Ten C’s to Gentiles as a people like Israel? If not, this was never given to gentiles.
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46659
07/25/03 11:47 AM
07/25/03 11:47 AM
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Active Member 2013
Dedicated Member
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,102
Halstad, MN
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Lobo, "you are in error, Paul is specifically" contrasting the children of the flesh with the children of promise: quote:
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The context of this verse does not narrow down the meaning of "children of promise" to only a small group of "children of the flesh." Such an idea goes contrary to Paul's argument.
You are wrong that "Gentiles were never called that." There are but three texts in the KJV that use both the words "children" and "promise," and all three mention or refer to Gentiles: quote:
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off [Gentiles], even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. [The context is pretty plain.]
Not once do we have an explicit verse that contradicts these Scriptures, that says that only a child of the flesh is a child of promise.
quote:
Please show me one text were God gave the Ten C?s to Gentiles as a people like Israel? If not, this was never given to gentiles.
One question at a time.
You do agree, then, that Jesus is the One who gave the 10 on Sinai, and that thus when He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments," He could easily have been referring to the 10 as well, since those are His commandments too? (I ask if you agree because in your replies I can detect no hint that you do not.)
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Re: What Is The Truth About The Eating Today Of Unclean Meat Such As Pork?
#46660
07/25/03 11:15 PM
07/25/03 11:15 PM
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Bob,
First, I am not confused as what the conflict is as I agree that the children of the flesh are not the same as the children of promise. However, they are the same as the seed of Isaac.
In other words,
Seed of Isaac = children of the flesh only (Jews)
Seed of Abraham (Promise) = the seed of Isaac and gentiles collectively called the seed of Abraham of children of God.
Do you agree or not agree?
Next, Jesus gave all the 613 laws. So we could also say that he was referring to all the law when he stated "If ye love me, keep my commandments,”, not just the ten and not just His new law of Love. However, when you look at all the scripture in the NT related to Jesus “commands” they are never used synonymously with the torah or tables of stone. However, His command are used in direct relationship to His love command.
So it is possible that all the 613 laws were included in Jesus statement "If ye love me, keep my commandments," but it is not likely based on the context and all the other precedence. However, one thing is clear and that He did not mean just the tables of stone because neither he noir any other Jew made a distinction of the ten from the rest of the law. It was all the law and had equal weight.
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