|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,631
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
6 registered members (Karen Y, Kevin H, Daryl, dedication, TheophilusOne, 1 invisible),
3,255
guests, and 6
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113539
05/24/09 04:19 PM
05/24/09 04:19 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
Tom,
Again I will differ. You are looking at "God's future" from the perspective of "our future," and I am meaning that we see the future differently.
To us is not revealed everything about the future. It is nebulous. We have freedom to choose our path.
To God, the future is precisely known. He knows what we will do, not just the end result of a particular path we might choose. He also knows exactly when He will come again, for He knows, in advance, when we will fulfill those words you have quoted.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
Men do not know the future. The angels do not know the future. But God does...and He knows the future with the same clarity as that of knowing how many hairs are upon our heads. He who calls all of the stars by name (beyond knowing merely the number of them), who has precisely foretold the future in times past, and who's prophecies have always come true in every detail predicted, knows the future as accurately as He knows the past.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#113540
05/24/09 04:30 PM
05/24/09 04:30 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Again I will differ. You are looking at "God's future" from the perspective of "our future," and I am meaning that we see the future differently. The future is what it is regardless of how we see it. What is it? Is it determined before we act? Or is it undermined until we determine it? The particular point of view you've adopted has led you to make statements such as: As for there being a "risk" for Him sending His Son, this is beyond our understanding even though this is simple enough for a child to understand. That should be a hint that perhaps the point of view may need adjusting.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113542
05/24/09 05:22 PM
05/24/09 05:22 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
If the person determined her own future, then it wasn't determined until she determined it, which means that God, before the time she determined it, saw a future which hadn't been determined yet. Christ in His humanity, could have failed....But God still knew it would succeed. These are mutually contradictory statements. This shouldn't be difficult to see. Let's assume God knew Christ would succeed, in the sense that you are asserting, not by faith in Christ's character (which I believe) but by looking into the future, and seeing what would happen before it did. If God knew Christ would succeed by looking into the future and seeing what would happen, the thing which God saw would happen had a 100% chance of occurring. In other words, it was impossible for something to happen other than that which God foresaw would happen. This is the point you are not addressing, but it's right here that your position falls apart. This point needs to be addressed. You cannot logically assert that a thing both has some non-0 probability of occurring and a 0 probability of occurring. It's one or the other. The only way you have out of this logical conundrum would be to assert that even though God knows something will happen, that doesn't mean it will happen. But you can see that this doesn't make sense, can't you? Assuming the answer is yes, we have: 1.God knew Christ would succeed. 2.Therefore it was certain Christ would succeed. 3.Therefore the chance that Christ would fail was nil. 4.Therefore God undertook no risk in sending Christ. If you wish to assert that the fact that God knows something will happen doesn't mean it has to happen, please provide some example to illustrate this. That is, provide an example where God was certain something would happen, but it didn't. this has me totally confused. i have to admit that my understanding is generally the same as others when it comes to God knowing the future. it seems that God could know that it would be very risky for Christ to come as man and succeed, but, seeing the future, know He would succeed. im not saying you are wrong, because ive walked this walk long enough to know that no matter how positive i am about anything, when i humble down and go to the Lord, sometimes i find out i was very wrong, and other times very right.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: teresaq]
#113544
05/24/09 06:42 PM
05/24/09 06:42 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I'm not saying you are wrong, because I've walked this walk long enough to know that no matter how positive I am about anything, when I humble down and go to the Lord, sometimes I find out I was very wrong, and other times very right. This is a good attitude! And I hear you, 100%. I was once a totally convinced Calvinist. Try taking a look at the following, teresa: http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-open-theism/response-to-critics/Maybe this will make sense.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113547
05/24/09 08:19 PM
05/24/09 08:19 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
why dont we take these point by point?
i have a different understanding for some of these events than what he is presenting.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: teresaq]
#113549
05/24/09 08:52 PM
05/24/09 08:52 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I don't know what "these" are, but sure, if you want to consider something on a point by point basis, that would be fine.
A key question that Boyd was considering, in coming with the framework of which the "Open View" is a part, is the existence of Satan and evil in the world. If God knew that Lucifer was going to sin (i.e., was 100% certain that sin would enter the universe if He created Lucifer) then why did God create him? Why not simply create another angel in his place that wouldn't sin? It certainly wouldn't have been curtailing Lucifer's free will to not create him, as only beings that exist have free will.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: teresaq]
#113551
05/24/09 09:06 PM
05/24/09 09:06 PM
|
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
|
|
why dont we take these point by point?
i have a different understanding for some of these events than what he is presenting. Don't have time to recap all "these events" from your discussion. Sin entering the universe was a "possibility" not a certainty, given free choice, and God's Son becoming a man raised that possibility afresh. Tom, it's hardly logically inconsistent for the Father to know the outcome of Christ's life and death, while Jesus himself knew nothing of the future but by his Father's Spirit's prompting day by day. Jesus' success was contingent on daily victory over sin by faith in his Father, not his Father's own foreknowledge or his own pre-existent plans, which played no direct part in his earthly life. His prophetic statements weren't by virtue of his own divine insight, but by the Spirit of prophecy his Father gave him, as a man to be and use. The risk was real, since Jesus lived a finite life on earth, the Son of man. Gethsemane shows how close a call it was, as was the case all the way through! That Jesus didn't know he would succeed on the path from the upper room to Calvary, until he'd actually done it and said, "It is finished!" doesn't stop God the Father knowing what'll happen in advance.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Colin]
#113552
05/24/09 09:24 PM
05/24/09 09:24 PM
|
Regular Member
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
|
|
Tom,
I know we disagree on open theism but I just wanted to address your point about God not making Lucifer had He known that Lucifer would fail. Wouldn't that be cheating for God to do that? Even if only God knew that He was doing it. I understand He could just have easily made a being that would choose not to sin but that would be pretty close to just making robots run through life on a pre programed script. Once God started to create beings with free will then He has to allow those beings the ability to choose sin. Sure He knew that some would sin but it could be no other way. And God knowing that some would sin doesn't mean that it wasn't a possibility that Satan or even Adam and Eve could have lived their life not sinning. God knowing IS NOT causative. I understand you say you agree with that statement YET you always come across with points that exactly say that God's foreknowledge IS causative while as that same time saying you don't think it is.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113554
05/24/09 09:38 PM
05/24/09 09:38 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
I don't know what "these" are, but sure, if you want to consider something on a point by point basis, that would be fine. gregg boyds points from the site you gave: http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-open-theism/response-to-critics/
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: teresaq]
#113559
05/24/09 10:04 PM
05/24/09 10:04 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
These don't seem to be organized in terms of points, unless you have in mind the "Common Objections" section. We could take a look at that. Objections: The Open view undermines God’s omniscience.
Response:I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God is absolutely all knowing. There is no difference in my understanding of God’s omniscience and that of any other classical theologian, but I hold that part of the reality which God perfectly knows consists of possibilities as well as actualities. The difference lies in our understanding of the nature of the future, not in our understanding of God’s omniscience.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
