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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113560
05/24/09 10:13 PM
05/24/09 10:13 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I know we disagree on open theism but I just wanted to address your point about God not making Lucifer had He known that Lucifer would fail. Wouldn't that be cheating for God to do that? Even if only God knew that He was doing it. I understand He could just have easily made a being that would choose not to sin but that would be pretty close to just making robots run through life on a pre programed script. Once God started to create beings with free will then He has to allow those beings the ability to choose sin. Sure He knew that some would sin but it could be no other way. It sounds like you're saying you don't believe it would be possible for God to create a universe without sin, given He created beings with free will. Or, to put it another way, you believe that sin is inevitable in a Universe where free will exists. I don't see how it's possible to read your above paragraph in a way that doesn't imply this. I disagree. I think sin was a fluke. It's something God knew might happen, but the probability was small. God was willing to take the risk of creating beings with free will. And God knowing that some would sin doesn't mean that it wasn't a possibility that Satan or even Adam and Eve could have lived their life not sinning. God knowing IS NOT causative. I understand you say you agree with that statement YET you always come across with points that exactly say that God's foreknowledge IS causative while as that same time saying you don't think it is. The causation comes from the ontological assumptions, not the epistemological ones. I know this is a bit hard to understand, but this is the more precise way of explaining the issue, which keeps being misunderstood. It's not an issue involving something (the future) being *perceived* as being a certain way, but with something actually being a certain way. If the future is determined, and in that future Adam and Eve sin, then it's not possible for Adam and Eve not to sin irrespective of God's foreknowledge. The impossibility is not something caused in some physical sense, but in a logical sense. It's not that God's foreknowledge causes something to happen, but that certain assumptions regarding the future which certain beliefs regarding God's foreknowledge make necessary result in certain logical contradictions.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113561
05/24/09 10:16 PM
05/24/09 10:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, it's hardly logically inconsistent for the Father to know the outcome of Christ's life and death, while Jesus himself knew nothing of the future but by his Father's Spirit's prompting day by day. I've not asserted anything resembling this. The SOP tells us that heaven was imperiled for our redemption, that not only Christ assumed a risk, but *God* did as well. The logical inconsistency that comes about is in asserting both that God was 100% certain that Christ would not fail, and that He assumed a risk in sending Christ.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113566
05/24/09 11:40 PM
05/24/09 11:40 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Tom,
The above demonstrates the major problem with your reasoning. It is your reliance upon human, finite, logic that is the problem. Can your logic outguess God? Is it infallible?
Job was just as certain in his statements to his friends....but found himself speechless when God addressed him, hence my earlier mention of Job.
These are things where we need not spend much time. Two facts we know from the Bible, and by faith I accept that they are not mutually exclusive:
1) God's foreknowledge is perfect, knowing the end from the beginning. 2) We each have freedom to choose.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113569
05/25/09 12:30 AM
05/25/09 12:30 AM
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These don't seem to be organized in terms of points, unless you have in mind the "Common Objections" section. We could take a look at that. this and the ones following were what i was referring to: Many passages of Scripture depict God as foreknowing and/or predetermining certain things about the future. But there are also many passages that depict the future is open (not determined) and depict God as knowing it as a realm partly comprised of possibilities.
Some examples of these Scriptures include: The Lord frequently changes his mind in the light of changing circumstances, or as a result of prayer (Exod. 32:14; Num. 14:12–20; Deut. 9:13–14, 18–20, 25; 1 Sam. 2:27–36; 2 Kings 20:1–7; 1 Chron. 21:15; Jer. 26:19; Ezek. 20:5–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10). At other times he explicitly states that he will change his mind if circumstances change (Jer. 18:7–11; 26:2–3; Ezek. 33:13–15). This willingness to change is portrayed as one of God’s attributes of greatness (Joel 2:13–14; Jonah 4:2).
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#113570
05/25/09 12:31 AM
05/25/09 12:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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James, your comments remind me of the Lutherans, who believe in predestination, but not double-predestination. When confronted with the argument that their position is illogical they respond, "It may be illogical, but it's Biblical." If you choose to hold a position that you recognize is illogical, then I think there's not much else to talk about here. These are things where we need not spend much time. Two facts we know from the Bible, and by faith I accept that they are not mutually exclusive:
1) God's foreknowledge is perfect, knowing the end from the beginning. 2) We each have freedom to choose. Sigh. Yes, these things are not mutually exclusive. However, the ideas your holding in regards to the nature of the future and the SOP comments regarding risk are mutually exclusive.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113571
05/25/09 12:45 AM
05/25/09 12:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Many passages of Scripture depict God as foreknowing and/or predetermining certain things about the future. But there are also many passages that depict the future is open (not determined) and depict God as knowing it as a realm partly comprised of possibilities.
Some examples of these Scriptures include: The Lord frequently changes his mind in the light of changing circumstances, or as a result of prayer (Exod. 32:14; Num. 14:12–20; Deut. 9:13–14, 18–20, 25; 1 Sam. 2:27–36; 2 Kings 20:1–7; 1 Chron. 21:15; Jer. 26:19; Ezek. 20:5–22; Amos 7:1–6; Jonah 1:2; 3:2, 4–10). At other times he explicitly states that he will change his mind if circumstances change (Jer. 18:7–11; 26:2–3; Ezek. 33:13–15). This willingness to change is portrayed as one of God’s attributes of greatness (Joel 2:13–14; Jonah 4:2). Often the Scriptures which present an Open Future are interpreted as anthropomorphisms (i.e., God doesn't mean what He says, but is simply speaking as a man would speak). If one takes the position that Scripture doesn't mean what it says, then, of course, it's impossible to prove something on the basis of Scripture. I had a book which went through this category by category, but can't find it. Oh well. Let's consider one of these. What more was there to do for my vineyard that I have not done in it? When I expected it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes? (Isa. 5:4) I know I'm in the minority on this question, but I believe that God really did expect Israel to respond positively to Him. In Deut. 28, God lays out blessings and cursings for Israel, based on whether they followed His counsel or not. I believe God foresaw both what would have happened had Israel followed His counsel and what would happen if they didn't, as they actually didn't. I believe both scenarios were possible, and that God really expected that they would follow the better path.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113577
05/25/09 01:32 AM
05/25/09 01:32 AM
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Regular Member
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
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Tom,
Do you take William Craigs position that once God entered into the time/space He created that He is somehow, from now on, confined to it?
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Aaron]
#113578
05/25/09 02:20 AM
05/25/09 02:20 AM
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Regular Member
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
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I do believe that its possible a universe could be created where the beings choose not to fall. I believe we have some inspiration that says there are worlds out there like that. What Im saying is that if God is going to respect our free will then He would create beings and let the chips fall so to speak. What I think your saying is that because God could have just as easily created a world were no one sinned then He should have even if that doing many do overs until He got one like He wanted. Its like flipping a quarter, heads being no one sins and He got tails the first time so you want Him to keep flipping till He hits heads cause thats easiest for Him and us all around. But if He had flipped tails first then went on till He got heads then thats cheating and He would know that even if all those tail worlds never were actualized yet.
Also I think I understand what was being said about maybe God doesn't follow our logic. It seems that your using logic in a time sense and God isn't bound to our laws of time. Its like saying Christ couldn't have ascended to heaven because its not logical that someone in this world could do that given the laws of gravity. God knew when I was in high school that I would one day marry the girl I was dating. That doesnt mean that was my only option. I was still free to break up with her and marry my second girlfriend. If I had then God would have known that I was going to marry my second girlfriend instead of my first. His knowledge was in no way causative. To say it was would be affirming the consequence. You say its logically impossible for us to do anything but that which God foreknew. But thats still restricting God to our time. I think the burden would be on you to prove that God is stuck in our time.
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: Tom]
#113581
05/25/09 03:16 AM
05/25/09 03:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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Let's consider one of these. What more was there to do for my vineyard that I have not done in it? When I expected it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes? (Isa. 5:4) I know I'm in the minority on this question, but I believe that God really did expect Israel to respond positively to Him. In Deut. 28, God lays out blessings and cursings for Israel, based on whether they followed His counsel or not. I believe God foresaw both what would have happened had Israel followed His counsel and what would happen if they didn't, as they actually didn't. I believe both scenarios were possible, and that God really expected that they would follow the better path. putting your first sentence aside for the moment i dont think anyone here could disagree with the rest of what you say. (as an aside, you should have given this as an example of what you meant, but hindsight is 20-20.) i think where we would separate tho, is that God knew which way they would go. deuteronomy also records that israel would want a king, for one. Deu 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: God omniscient-- He knows the future.
[Re: teresaq]
#113582
05/25/09 03:43 AM
05/25/09 03:43 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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In Deut. 28, God lays out blessings and cursings for Israel, based on whether they followed His counsel or not. I believe God foresaw both what would have happened had Israel followed His counsel and what would happen if they didn't, as they actually didn't. I believe both scenarios were possible, and that God really expected that they would follow the better path. Putting your first sentence aside for the moment, I don't think anyone here could disagree with the rest of what you say....I think where we would separate tho, is that God knew which way they would go. Deuteronomy also records that israel would want a king, for one. As requested, I set my first sentence aside. You said you don't think anyone here could disagree with the rest of what I said, but you did that very thing! I said: I believe both scenarios were possible, and that God really expected that they would follow the better path. You said: God knew which way they would go. If God knew which way they could go, then He didn't really believe they would choose the better path.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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