It seems this topic might merit further thought.

"The task is to discover the truth, and not to start with an allegation and then require others to prove it wrong."

Boblee said,

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Actually, that procedure is very close to inductive logic on which most scientific knowledge is based. After data is recorded, a guess is made as to how the data should be interpreted. Then that interpretation is expanded to areas not yet known. Next new data is taken in the field of the expansion to see if the interpretation is correct. If not you start over. If so, you have the beginnings of new knowledge.

That procedure, called the scientific method, can be applied to learning scripture as well as to knowledge of the physical world. So Mike's statement is not as unreasonable as it sounds.

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That is very true in respect to orphaned Science. They have no one to learn from, you see. And if that is the case we are all doomed, for it is written.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

But we are not orphans. Chist said Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Boblee said,

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John,

Why did you say "orphaned Science?" Are you biased concerning the way God expects us to learn about what He created? When God said "come let us reason together" (Is 1:18), what do you think He meant? God started out our civilization by asking Adam to name the animals (Gen 2:19). By your thinking, God should have informed Adam what the names of the animals were. Throughout scripture, God seems to want us to learn from experience, not by decree.

Actually, you changed the subject. God did indeed pass on information about various subjects. He still does through His Spirit (John 16:13-15). But He doesn't pass on information about every subject, even spiritual subjects. Also through various redactors and translators, what God meant by what He said is often obscure to us. It is through logic and reasoning (basically the same method scientists use to make sense of the universe) that we come to an understanding of what God was trying to tell us. We know, of course, that God gave Mrs. White illumination on many subjects which have guided the Adventist church through many difficulties. But are you aware that God never gave visions to her on any subject until she and others had studied the Bible (using methods like I was pointing out) until they felt they understood it thoroughly or could go no further?

So please don't denigrate the method God gave us for learning.

RL

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I truly love the verse from Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

It is God calling us the sinner to listen to His reasoning. And it is Christ that taught us that He would send the Comforter to teach all truth. So "how shall we reason?" By asking for the Holy Spirit to teach us all truth. For our reasoning powers are like that of filthy rags.

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Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

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So Brethren and Sisters, let us never debate but learn from the Holy Spirit.

So it was wrong for Abraham to ask God not to destroy Sodom if there were fifty, or even ten, faithful people in the city (Gen 19). And it was wrong for Moses to take his father-in-law's advice to set up judges in the camp of the Israelites in the desert without consulting God (Ex 18). And it was wrong for Moses to object when God wanted to destroy the Israelites and start over with Moses and his children (Exod 32:9-14) or later when God said He was going home and told Moses to take the people into Canaan, (Ex 33:1-17). Then there was Gideon who wanted a wad of wool to be wet one morning and dry the next morning as proof God would be with him. That must have made God upset. And of course Hezekiah must have gotten into real trouble when he asked God to extend his life (II Kings 20:1-11). I suppose it was just a coincidence that the sundial turned back when Hezekiah requested it as a sign the Lord would answer his prayer. And it was wrong for Ezekiel to refuse to eat the food God told him to eat (Eze. 4).

Seriously, I would ask: If God didn't want us to use our reasoning powers and think for ourselves, why did He give us that power? I can understand that when a group of slaves came out of Egypt where they had been brainwashed out of doing any thinking, God would and did set up a set of rules with which to govern them. But the whole goal of delivering them from Egypt was to restore their ability to think, reason, and govern themselves. In a real sense, all humanity has been brainwashed by the wiles of Satan, and I believe God has the same goal for us. In a few areas, we are so out of touch from what we should be that God still intervenes and gives us a "heads up" as He did through the messages He gave Ellen White. He even gave us the Holy Spirit to be our teacher (John 16:13). But the goal of God, as with any teacher, is to help us develop into independent and rational citizens of heaven.

RL

There are valid points there Boblee. But in this generation of presumption and self-will it is also important to be on guard against sin.

It is imperative that if our reasoning with God is going to be a blessing that it be in 'goodwill'. Second which is like the first it needs to be in 'faith'.

We know that God has goodwill towards us, (Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.) but we must also realize that sin has removed our goodwill towards God. So faith and goodwill are not natural to fallen man. This is where the difficulty lies. That is why we must come to grips with faith, so that we can reason in grace.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

In the examples you listed we can see reasoning that is both in faith and goodwill as well as such as is not. We can see the results of either. Sadly Hezekiah reasoned without faith and goodwill. God did oblige him but Hezekiah's request did not bring blessing. Nor did it establish his faith and goodwill towards God.

Greetings,

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

We are all sinners. We do not have right doings of our own. In fact, we are to learn to die daily. Even our own reasoning powers are created sinful. But through Christ we may obtain the clothes of right doing.

We truly need the Lord our Saviour and the Holy Spirit to teach us all truth. It is a great blessing to have God create in us a clean heart and a reknewed spirit when we ask Him for these things.

There are many in the Bible which have errored. In Romans 15:4 we can read "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

But I urge all to pray for the Holy Spirit to come and teach all truth. For if we are humble of heart and willing to be taught, God has amazing and great lessons that will prepare us for Heaven bound living!

Your Sister in Christ Jesus
Cheri

Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

It is important to realize the fallen condition of perverted understanding. However we must not think that we have not the ability of understanding and reasoning. We need to learn as intelligent persons, allow ourselves to look through the eyes of the Saviour, and our reasoning shall be enlightened.

Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Pro 2:9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
Pro 2:10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
Pro 2:11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:

In response to the question asked in this post, I like to cite the four parables in Luke 15 and 16 which present God's response to five different types of people.

The Coin: The coin would represent people who were lost, didn't know they were lost, and had no idea how to return to their resting place. Considering the fact that one out of ten coins was in this condition, it is likely that this parable represents one out of ten people. As we look about, we might notice that few adults lack sentience, so this parable must refer primarily to our children.

The Sheep: The sheep would represent people who were lost, did know they were lost, but were unable to return home. If the numbers mean anything, however, this parable represents very few of us. We've all known people like that, but not many. Maybe one in a hundred. Notice that when the shepherd brought that lost sheep home, it was locked in the sheepfold for safe keeping.

The Wandering Son: This son is the one I want to emphasize. He wandered off deliberately. He even had a questionably good time for a while. But without adequate preparation for living alone, he soon ran into problems. But did his father rescue him? NO. Did his father send him a map or more money or clothes or anything? Not a thing. The boy was required to use his own wits to figure out how to get home and what excuse to use for returning. And the numbers imply that half of us are in this condition. As Paul says to the Philippians, "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12). As with our own children, we teach them the basics of living, but they are expected to grow up (I Cor 13:11). Just so, God expects us to grow up also and become mature (the meaning of "perfect" in Matt 5:48).

The Other Son: He is an interesting enigma. He never left home, so his experience was limited. He was even afraid to throw a party for himself. He just stuck around the house doing what he was told. His father chided him for his lethargy, but didn't seem too upset about it. This boy seems to represent the other half of us. It kind of reminds me of Jesus' characterization of us as lukewarm (Rev 3:15, 16).

The Shrewd Manager: No numbers are mentioned in connection with this man so his condition must be a random event. But we have all known of people, mostly young people, who have encountered unfair criticism from what should be their mentors. It used to be long haired boys or short skirted girls that got blackballed either at the church door or at an educational institution. In this parable, Jesus seems to state that it is fair for them to do whatever they can to defend themselves. I've known many of these people who were rescued by other Christian fellowships. We miss them as Adventists, but they have found salvation through other brotherhoods.

In review, we would like to think that all Adventists are becoming just like us. But in these parables, it is clear to me that God relates to us in many different ways. Furthermore, it seems obvious that He expects us to use our God-given intelligence, reason, wisdom, and emotions in our paths to heaven. He does not dictate our activities (except in exceptional situations) nor does He want us as servants (John 15:15). He functions as a teacher and we are expected to learn, but any good teacher expects to facilitate independence on the part of the student.

RL

Where do you get these ideas for numbers? I'm like the sheep, as you described it, and I doubt I'm one in a hundred.

I'm curious, do you think the elder brother was in a saving relationship with God?