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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13229
04/29/05 02:03 AM
04/29/05 02:03 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Is it the 'wrath of God' that you see when you "Behold the lamb of God"?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13230
04/29/05 05:06 AM
04/29/05 05:06 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Job comes to mind. God stipulated the parameters, and Satan complied perfectly.
Are you suggesting that Satan was carrying out God's will?
You said, "Yes, God has given Satan permission to wreak havoc, and Satan has dutifully obeyed God." Do you mean by this simply that Satan did not do more than God permitted, or do you mean something more than this (like Satan was actually carrying out God's will -- i.e. it was God's will that Job be tormented, and his children killed, etc.)
Regarding your question on how I would interpret the quote you posted, I would quote it according to the principles of the other quotes I gave, since inspiration does not contradict itself.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13231
04/29/05 05:16 AM
04/29/05 05:16 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Yes, I agree that God has used many and various means and methods to punish and destroy unsaved sinners. In some cases He simply withholds His divine protection and terrible things happen. In some cases He commands holy angels to cause death and destruction. In some cases He permits evil angels to spread desolation everywhere. In the end, however, God will take matters into His own hands. He will rain down fire and brimstone upon the unsaved. As we behold the wrath of God, the wrath of the Lamb, we are, along with the holy angels, compelled to praise His holy name.
Since God has given us the following principle:
quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35, 36)
how do you decide when God is being schitzophrenic? That is, God has told us that force is contrary to the principles of His government, and He gave His Son for us, who died a terrible death in order to prove this is the case. Yet you still don't believe it, and insist that force *is* a principle of God's government, in fact it appears you believe it is *the* principle of His government. God has told us that He gives people over the deceiver when they refuse His protection, and gives examples (such as from Job) to show what happens when one does this (gives themselves over to Satan's power) and tells us the following:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work.
Yet in spite of this you insist that it is not Satan, but God, who "kills thousands of children." What exactly could God do or say to convince you that it really is Satan and not He who is responsible for evil in the world?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13232
04/29/05 02:38 PM
04/29/05 02:38 PM
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OP
SDA
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Southwest USA
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quote:
Is it the 'wrath of God' that you see when you "Behold the lamb of God"?
Yes, that's part of who God is. And, in the context of the great controversy, especially during the final phase, the wrath of God plays a huge part. Of course, there is more to God than the wrath of God. He is also kind, loving, forgiving, and compassionate. But the wrath of God is no less an act of love. Safe in the arms of God, I do not fear the wrath of God - rather, I respect Him for it. As a parent, I know how hard it is to punish those you love.
Revelation
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13233
04/30/05 03:13 AM
04/30/05 03:13 AM
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OP
SDA
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Tom, was it God’s will when He promised Adam and Eve, “In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”? Was it God’s will when He gave Satan specific limitations regarding Job and his family? Was it God’s will when He sent water to punish and destroy the Antediluvians? Was it God’s will when He sent fire to punish and destroy the Sodomites? Or, did God just simply give them over to reap the results of their sowing? And, if so, was it God’s will to standby and watch them suffer and die, knowing that He had the power to intervene?
Since you believe all the stories in the OT, where it says God punished and destroyed people, happened as a result of God merely withdrawing His protection, allowing the forces of nature to run its normal course, there is no way you can read those stories literally. There is no doubt in my mind that the Bible means what it says, that I am not required to apply some principle to interpret those stories in a mystic manner. Both the Bible, and the SOP, describe those stories in literal terms. Yes, there are places where symbolic language is used, in the context of God’s wrath, but these insights must be interpreted in light of the literal, not the other way around.
The quote you posted concerning the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem, is clearly representative of those cases where God did, indeed, allow a group of people to suffer the consequences of their evil choices. Satan acted, on behalf of God, to punish and destroy those stubborn Jews who refused to “Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.” Luke 16:9. Satan influenced the Romans to afflict the Jews. But this is not the only manner and method God has chosen to mete out punishment. Nor can you cite this case and force all other cases into its mold. Each case is different, but they all share a common thread – God is in control, not Satan.
Therefore, Behold the Lamb of God!
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13234
04/30/05 03:28 AM
04/30/05 03:28 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Of course, there is more to God than the wrath of God. He is also kind, loving, forgiving, and compassionate.
This quote displays a lack of comprehension it appears to me regarding the true nature of God's wrath. God's wrath is not something different that being "kind, loving, forgiving and compassionate." That is, you wrote, "He is also" which implies that God's wrath is not "kind, loving, or forgiving" but of some other character (which would be unkind, unloving and unforgiving).
The true character of God's wrath is that He simply gives those over to the result of their choices. That is to say, He is a respector of freedom. What a person sows, He will reap.
GC 541 and following points out that God would make those who reject Him happy if He could, but they have unfitted themselves to be in His presence. As Isa. 33 puts it, "who can stand with the everlasting burnings?" He gives the answer -- the righteous.
The light of the glory of God is life to the righteous, but death to the wicked (DA 108). God is who He is, which is kind, loving and forgiving, but this character (i.e. glory) is death to the wicked. He doesn't turn around and expose some other dark, hidden, nasty side of His character, but it is the same character -- kind, loving, and forgiving -- which results in the destruction of the wicked.
God's character was fully revealed in Jesus Christ -- fully. There is nothing remaining to be revealed about God that Christ did not reveal. As the SOP puts it, all that man needs to be known about God, and all that *can* be known about God, was revealed in Christ. (I can't find this quote. If someone else can, I'd like to know). So whatever we need to know about God's wrath was revealed in Christ.
What is it that Christ did to those who rejected Him? Did He reign fire from heaven? No, because that is what the enemy would do. He prayed for those who rejected Him, did good to them, and departed from them. This is God's wrath.
Here is the principle explained in Romans:
quote:
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 10:20, 21)
This is God's wrath, or vengeance. He overcomes evil with good. He heaps coals of fire on His enemies head by being kind and good to them. This is just what Christ did, and this is just what God is like.
Now this in no way encourages or excuses sin, because the reality is that sin is deadly. The results of sin can be seen in Jesus Christ. He died a terrible death, not because God was cruel, arbitrary or harsh to Him, as God did nothing to Him other than "deliever Him up". Nevertheless Christ died a terrible death, the same death the wicked will experience, which the Spirit of Prophesy points out many times (one such example is in "Calvary" from the Desire of Ages). Even apart from her, this principle is clear in Scripture, which points out the Christ was made a curse for us (Gal. 3:13) and that He tasted death for every man (Heb. 2:9 -- this death can only be referring to the second death, since men taste the first death for themselves.)
The following Scriptures bring out the truth that God's wrath is His giving people up to the result of their choices: (Jer. 33:5; Deut. 31: 17, 18; 2 Chron. 29:6, 8; 2 Kings 17:17-20; Ps. 27:9; Ps. 89:46; Ps. 143:7; Hos. 9:12; Lam. 2:5-7; Rom. 1:18-26). I won't repost all of these, because I just did that a little earlier in the thread. But here's one of them:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
Note:
1) My anger.
2) I will forsake them.
3) They shall be devoured.
4) Many evils and troubles shall befall them.
5) The evils come because God is not among them.
6) God hides His face.
All the Scriptures bring out the same point. God does not contradict Himself. His wrath does not mean one thing in one part of Scripture, and something else, something sinister, in other parts. Once again I'll reiterate that everything we need to know, or *can* know, about God was revealed in Christ. He has revealed what God's wrath is by His own actions. Finally, there are much material from the Spirit of Prophesy, of which I quoted just a very small amount, which brings out the principle that God's wrath is His giving people over to the results of their choice. The first chapter in the Great Controversy discusses this principle in great detail, and it would be a good thing to do to read this entire chapter carefully.
To summarize:
1) The wrath of God is not one thing in one part of Scripture, and something else in another.
2) All that can be known of God was revealed in Christ. Therefore the nature of God's wrath can be observed in Christ. The careful student of His life will note that He did not torture and then kill those who disagreed with Him. In fact, to those who would have fire from heaven come down to devore those who did not agree with Him, He explained that such were acting according to a different spirit.
Finally I would suggest sticking with the subject of the judgment of the wicked at the end of time. This is an easier subject to understand than things like the flood and Sodom and Gemorrah and other such. There are principles which are similar, but things which are different. It is because the principles of the judgment are easier to understand that I have refrained, and will continue to refrain, from discussing the flood, Sodom and Gemorrah and such like. If the principles of the judgment are not understood, which are so straighforward and to which there is so much material, in my opinion there's no point in discussing these other issues, and there's no chance they will be understood.
For example, here are statements from the Desire of Ages:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them...The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107, 108)
This brings out the principle as clearly as can possible be done, it seems to me, that the glory of God destroys those who cling to sin. This same principle is seen over and over again in Scripture. Once this principle is grasped, it can open the understanding to other things.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13235
04/29/05 08:27 PM
04/29/05 08:27 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mike, When you "Behold the Lamb of God", what is it in beholding Christ that makes you think or see wrath, even the wrath of God?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13236
04/30/05 12:18 AM
04/30/05 12:18 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
The careful student of His life will note that He did not torture and then kill those who disagreed with Him.
Tom, in your conception removing life can never be an act of mercy?
quote:
In fact, to those who would have fire from heaven come down to devore those who did not agree with Him, He explained that such were acting according to a different spirit.
People in Sodom were incorrigible sinners, while the people to whom the disciples were referring still could be saved. This makes all the difference in the world.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13237
04/30/05 01:20 AM
04/30/05 01:20 AM
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Full Member
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 126
USA
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Tom, are you a beliver in the teaching that God does not kill or it has been stated another way that God does not destroy?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13238
04/30/05 04:39 AM
04/30/05 04:39 AM
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OP
SDA
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Tom and John, the view you two hold regarding the wrath of God emphasizes the fact God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Which, of course, is true. But your attempts to downplay the "severity" of God undermines justice and judgment. We are adominshed to "behold" the goodness and the severity of God.
Romans
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Also, the idea that God did not send water and fire to punish and destroy the Antediluvians and the Sodomites ignores the plain and simply stories recorded in the Bible. The idea that God simply allowed the water and the fire to run its natural course undermines the word of God.
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