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Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: Rick H] #156718
09/28/13 04:28 PM
09/28/13 04:28 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I am at work, but when I get home will see if can post the time line on the final events we got last Sabbath from some in the group who are studying this.


???

Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: Green Cochoa] #156872
10/06/13 04:06 AM
10/06/13 04:06 AM
His child  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

I don't believe probation has closed for everyone yet, no. ...
Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


As I read it the time allotted for the judgment: of the dead papacy was from Yom Kippur 10/22/1844 to 2/22/1928

The papacy had its deadly wound healed 2/29/1929

thus the time allotted for the judgment of the living papacy was from Yom Kippur 10/14/1929 to 2/14/2013 at which time Pope Benedict resigned. The living papacy with one pope ruling the papal kingdom ended.

the time allotted for the judgment of the living papacy had ended and on Yom Kippur 9/14/2013 the time of trouble began, which is to escalate until it becomes Jacob's trouble.

Daniel 11:43 tells of trouble in Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. The dictators were removed from office in that exact sequence: Egypt = jailed Mubarak. Libya = killed Qaddafi. And Ethiopia's Meles Zenawi died unexpectedly of "natural causes."

The Daniel 11:44-45 goes into a time of trouble like the world has never seen before.

America is in sequester mode. The US Government is shut down. And on October 17, 2013 (if the US Congress does not raise the debt ceiling) America will default on its debts. President Obama could be forced to take drastic measures if the debt ceiling is not raised. This is a formula for the Mark of the Beast.

And all of this is in the context of Daniel 7:17 identifying the kings from the earth (America) the last being Obama as I read the prophecy.

Thus as I read the evidence, we are in the time of trouble that is to worsen rapidly.

I believe that this is a tarrying time for the out pouring of the holy Spirit and the shaking.

As I continue to pray and study and read feedback from you all, Lord willing, I will understand more soon.

Blessings
Henry


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: Green Cochoa] #156873
10/06/13 04:13 AM
10/06/13 04:13 AM
His child  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Well said, dedication.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Well said (it is rare that dedication and I agree). But as we study the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, we both may yet see things more clearly.

Blessings
Henry


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: kland] #156875
10/06/13 04:19 AM
10/06/13 04:19 AM
His child  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,673
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
I don't know of any special event that made the news. But Yom kippur is in either Sept or Oct every year. This year it was on 9/23/13.
Could you show that to be true? I believe some would disagree. I just want to know how you know this.


The Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar. If lunar months are 28 days long, in time it becomes out of sync with the solar calendar. So they add a 13th month every so often (Adar II) to keep it aligned. here are 2 links that you can check our for more information.

Yom Kippur - Atonement and Holiness - High Holidays - Chabad
www.chabad.org › Jewish Practice › Jewish Holidays › High Holidays‎ September 13–14, 2013. Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year—the day on which we are closest to G‑d and to the quintessence of our own souls. It is the ...
When is Yom Kippur in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017? - High ...

www.chabad.org › ... › Jewish Holidays › High Holidays › Holiday Dates‎
Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, falls on the Hebrew calendar date of 10 Tishrei. Here are the coinciding secular dates for upcoming years: 2013: September ...


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: Rick H] #156876
10/06/13 04:20 AM
10/06/13 04:20 AM
His child  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I am at work, but when I get home will see if can post the time line on the final events we got last Sabbath from some in the group who are studying this.


I look forward to your post


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: His child] #156879
10/06/13 09:39 AM
10/06/13 09:39 AM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
I haven't read all this discussion, but what I've read there's a lot of speculation going on without really understanding the real trouble Jacob had and how he became victorious which was marked with his new name Israel. Jacob's life does set up the TYPE for the nation of Israel, and also for us individually that we need to go through those fall feasts pattern(time of trouble) before we can become victorious as he did. Is Jacob' trouble the same as the time of trouble SDAs has defined??? Let me know what you think.

Being in the SDA Church for over a quarter century, I never really understood Jacob’s victory over the angel besides the cliché presented at church. Nor after 5 years of observing the Feasts, did I really understood the meaning of the fall feast of Tabernacles(booths or Sukkoth(plural of sukkah)).

A sukkah is a temporary hut or tent. There are two places named Sukkoth in the Bible.

1. Sukkoth-Canaan
The first, is found in Gen 33:17 “Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built himself a house, and made booths[sukkoth, tents] for his livestock: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.”

This place was in Canaan. Notice that Jacob build himself a house and not a sukkah when he finally arrived in Canaan. It was his livestock(sheep and goats) that he build sukkoth for; thus he was led to called that place Sukkoth.

Initially, this text seems contradictory for why name a place Sukkoth when he didn't build any for himself??? Yet, it was in Jacob’s journey story after leaving Laban that I recently found some understanding in his victory and its connection with him arriving in Sukkoth-Canaan.

2. Sukkoth in the Wilderness
The second place name Sukkoth in the Bible, is the first Israelite encampment in the wilderness when they left Egypt. For 40 years, the Israelites moved and pitch their tent(sukkah) from place to place following the pillar of fire and cloud wherever the Lord led them. Israel were not to build a house and settle anywhere while being in the wilderness for they needed to promptly follow whenever the pillar of fire and cloud would move. Building a house to settle somewhere had to wait until the Lord led them into their final destination into Canaan -- the Promised Land -- to receive their inheritance. Thus, their wilderness experience in a tent(sukkah) was their intermediate spiritual journey that is between Passover(justification) and Feast of Tabernacles(entering the promised land).

Life of Jacob a TYPE of the Life of the nation of Israel
Hosea compares the life of Jacob to the life of Israel. Israel, like Jacob after his slavery to Laban, was heading to return to the land of Canaan to keep the appointed feasts(Hos 12:9). When we study closely his journey between leaving Laban and arriving to Canaan, we notice that there was 3 stops or encampments by which Jacob gave these places names. The meanings of these 3 places are types pointing to the 3 fall feasts(Day of Trumpet, Day of atonement and Feast of Tabernacle) that each one of us must experience in our own spiritual journey.

The Names of the 3 encampments of Jacob(Israel) with a brief explanation of its feast type:

1) Mahanaim : Means “two camps” by which was the place Jacob separated Rachel’s family(fig. overcomers) from Leah’s family(fig. the congregation). This points to the two resurrections which are symbolized by the feast of Trumpets. There were two trumpets made to summon the people. Blowing one trumpet summon the rulers(=overcomers who will rule with Christ), blowing both trumpets summon the congregation(=church).


2) Penuel or Peniel : was the place where Jacob wrestles what he thought was a man and ended up being an angel. That’s when he had an epiphany moment realizing that he wasn’t wrestling with Esau all along, but with the Lord. That’s why Jacob said to Esau the next day “for I see your face as one sees the face of God" (Gen. 33:10). Jacob didn’t see the face of the Lord in the face of Esau unless it was by special revelation that he understood the Sovereignty of God behind every circumstance including Esau, Laban, etc... So Jacob named “the place Peniel[face of God ]: for I have seen God face to face, yet my life is preserved.” Gen 32:30

Dr. Bullinger comments on Jacob prevailing over the angel:

Quote:
"prevailed = succeeded. He had contended for the birthright and succeeded (25:29-34). He had contended for the blessing and succeeded (27). He had contended with Laban and succeeded (31). He had contended with 'men' and succeeded. Now he contends with God--and fails. Hence, his name was changed to Isra-el, God commands, to teach him the greatly needed lesson of dependence upon God."


In Penuel was the day of revelation and decision for Jacob that completely changed his life from being a Jacob = usurper, contender(fighting against the enemy) to being Isra-el = God Commands ( seeing a Sovereign God behind every circumstances). Penuel represents the Day of Atonement by which the Lord turn it into a Jubilee for Jacob – the highest type of Sabbath. When Jacob’s eyes were opened to see the face of the Lord behind the circumstances, recognizing the Lord as Sovereign; only there after Jacob-Israel could stop fighting against enemies and start resting in God in all things and enter His rest.

For 98 years, Jacob wrestled with his brother Esau and with his uncle Laban. Then, God had mercy upon him and sent an angel the night before meeting Esau. Near daybreak, Jacob had the revelation and saw that he was actually wrestling with an angel. All along, the problem was not with Esau, but with his superficial vision. Esau was used to teach Jacob of His sovereignty.

This revelation brought Jacob to repentance which is depicted by the Day of Atonement and prepared the way for him to keep the feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth).

3)Sukkoth : was his final destination in the land of Canaan. He set up the Tabernacle type(or pattern) after his life-long journey as a Jacob in which by the Lord's mercy, he ended up as an overcomer as an Isra-el. Only once he overcame could he enter the Lord’s rest in Canaan and build himself a house to settle in.


Blessings
Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: Elle] #156899
10/07/13 01:03 AM
10/07/13 01:03 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Elle
I haven't read all this discussion, but what I've read there's a lot of speculation going on without really understanding the real trouble Jacob had and how he became victorious which was marked with his new name Israel. Jacob's life does set up the TYPE for the nation of Israel, and also for us individually that we need to go through those fall feasts pattern(time of trouble) before we can become victorious as he did. Is Jacob' trouble the same as the time of trouble SDAs has defined??? Let me know what you think.

Being in the SDA Church for over a quarter century, I never really understood Jacob’s victory over the angel besides the cliché presented at church. Nor after 5 years of observing the Feasts, did I really understood the meaning of the fall feast of Tabernacles(booths or Sukkoth(plural of sukkah)).

A sukkah is a temporary hut or tent. There are two places named Sukkoth in the Bible.

1. Sukkoth-Canaan
The first, is found in Gen 33:17 “Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built himself a house, and made booths[sukkoth, tents] for his livestock: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.”

This place was in Canaan. Notice that Jacob build himself a house and not a sukkah when he finally arrived in Canaan. It was his livestock(sheep and goats) that he build sukkoth for; thus he was led to called that place Sukkoth.

Initially, this text seems contradictory for why name a place Sukkoth when he didn't build any for himself??? Yet, it was in Jacob’s journey story after leaving Laban that I recently found some understanding in his victory and its connection with him arriving in Sukkoth-Canaan.

2. Sukkoth in the Wilderness
The second place name Sukkoth in the Bible, is the first Israelite encampment in the wilderness when they left Egypt. For 40 years, the Israelites moved and pitch their tent(sukkah) from place to place following the pillar of fire and cloud wherever the Lord led them. Israel were not to build a house and settle anywhere while being in the wilderness for they needed to promptly follow whenever the pillar of fire and cloud would move. Building a house to settle somewhere had to wait until the Lord led them into their final destination into Canaan -- the Promised Land -- to receive their inheritance. Thus, their wilderness experience in a tent(sukkah) was their intermediate spiritual journey that is between Passover(justification) and Feast of Tabernacles(entering the promised land).

Life of Jacob a TYPE of the Life of the nation of Israel
Hosea compares the life of Jacob to the life of Israel. Israel, like Jacob after his slavery to Laban, was heading to return to the land of Canaan to keep the appointed feasts(Hos 12:9). When we study closely his journey between leaving Laban and arriving to Canaan, we notice that there was 3 stops or encampments by which Jacob gave these places names. The meanings of these 3 places are types pointing to the 3 fall feasts(Day of Trumpet, Day of atonement and Feast of Tabernacle) that each one of us must experience in our own spiritual journey.

The Names of the 3 encampments of Jacob(Israel) with a brief explanation of its feast type:

1) Mahanaim : Means “two camps” by which was the place Jacob separated Rachel’s family(fig. overcomers) from Leah’s family(fig. the congregation). This points to the two resurrections which are symbolized by the feast of Trumpets. There were two trumpets made to summon the people. Blowing one trumpet summon the rulers(=overcomers who will rule with Christ), blowing both trumpets summon the congregation(=church).


2) Penuel or Peniel : was the place where Jacob wrestles what he thought was a man and ended up being an angel. That’s when he had an epiphany moment realizing that he wasn’t wrestling with Esau all along, but with the Lord. That’s why Jacob said to Esau the next day “for I see your face as one sees the face of God" (Gen. 33:10). Jacob didn’t see the face of the Lord in the face of Esau unless it was by special revelation that he understood the Sovereignty of God behind every circumstance including Esau, Laban, etc... So Jacob named “the place Peniel[face of God ]: for I have seen God face to face, yet my life is preserved.” Gen 32:30

Dr. Bullinger comments on Jacob prevailing over the angel:

Quote:
"prevailed = succeeded. He had contended for the birthright and succeeded (25:29-34). He had contended for the blessing and succeeded (27). He had contended with Laban and succeeded (31). He had contended with 'men' and succeeded. Now he contends with God--and fails. Hence, his name was changed to Isra-el, God commands, to teach him the greatly needed lesson of dependence upon God."


In Penuel was the day of revelation and decision for Jacob that completely changed his life from being a Jacob = usurper, contender(fighting against the enemy) to being Isra-el = God Commands ( seeing a Sovereign God behind every circumstances). Penuel represents the Day of Atonement by which the Lord turn it into a Jubilee for Jacob – the highest type of Sabbath. When Jacob’s eyes were opened to see the face of the Lord behind the circumstances, recognizing the Lord as Sovereign; only there after Jacob-Israel could stop fighting against enemies and start resting in God in all things and enter His rest.

For 98 years, Jacob wrestled with his brother Esau and with his uncle Laban. Then, God had mercy upon him and sent an angel the night before meeting Esau. Near daybreak, Jacob had the revelation and saw that he was actually wrestling with an angel. All along, the problem was not with Esau, but with his superficial vision. Esau was used to teach Jacob of His sovereignty.

This revelation brought Jacob to repentance which is depicted by the Day of Atonement and prepared the way for him to keep the feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth).

3)Sukkoth : was his final destination in the land of Canaan. He set up the Tabernacle type(or pattern) after his life-long journey as a Jacob in which by the Lord's mercy, he ended up as an overcomer as an Isra-el. Only once he overcame could he enter the Lord’s rest in Canaan and build himself a house to settle in.

Jacob became Israel because of his IMMENSE faith in God. He hungered and thirsted after righteousness, and sought diligently to attain it. He contended for it, he fought for it, he begged and pleaded for it, he craved it. His character was put on full display when he worked FOURTEEN YEARS for the hand of Rachel. It bore fruit in his pleading with the "Angel of The Lord" for a blessing and reassurance. It is that contention for, that earnestness of spirit to which God alluded when he changed his name to Israel: "because as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." (Gen. 33:28)

/

Last edited by James Peterson; 10/07/13 01:03 AM.
Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: James Peterson] #156903
10/07/13 08:06 AM
10/07/13 08:06 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,441
Canada
There are some good thoughts above.
However, when was Jacob brought to repentance?

I believe it was at Bethel.
Jacob, quilt ridden, running from his brother who threatened to kill him, probably thinking he was cast out by God Himself, falls into a troubled sleep.
God reveals Himself to Jacob -- the ladder with angels ascending and descending. The very picture of showing Jacob that God cares. The covenant promises are made to Jacob.

At that point Jacob is repentant and restored to a relationship with God. His 21 years working for Laban revealed a changed character. Being cheated so many times by Laban, he faithfully preformed his contracts and God blessed him.

If Jacob had not repented back in Bethal, would this have been so?

But now Jacob is about to enter the promised land.

Gen. 32:1-2 and the angels of God met him.
And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.

I see these "two camps" as God's host (the angels of God and the people of God)
The other camp is Esau and his men. The two hosts are about to meet.

The one who threatened to destroy him was marching against him to carry out the threat. "Thy brother Esau, he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him."

The odds, seen from a human standpoint, were strongly in favor of Esau doing away with Jacob. Esau with his army of 400 men against Jacob with wives and children and herds and cattle.

So Jacob (after arranging things) goes away to pray.
32:11 "Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, and the mother with the children."

He is praying for deliverance from what he fears is sure death.
He sends all kinds of presents to Esau to appease him.

Then goes back to praying.
Suddenly Jacob is confronted by a "man" and they start to wrestle.
I don't think Jacob had any idea who this was, he was in fear of Esau and was fighting for his life.
No one else in all the Bible started physically wrestling when an angel appeared, they all fell down in awe. But Jacob figured he was being attacked and so he wrestled -- all night.

But sometime, possible when his thigh went out of joint, Jacob realized this was not Esau, or one of Esau's men, this was a heavenly being. That's when he started clinging and to plead for a blessing and reassurance.

And he received it!
He was delivered from the wrath of Esau and they met in peace.
Jacob entered the promised land.


How does this relate to the last days?

1. The ladder from earth to heaven -- that represents now, now we make our connection with heaven, now we repent and find the relationship with Christ.

2. The 21 years of faithful service -- character building-- that is also now as we live for Christ.

3. Just before the entrance into the promised land (symbolic of heaven) "Esau" who has claimed the land without the spiritual connection, marches against those to whom it is promised (those who keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus).

This is the night of Jacob's trouble. If Jacob had not repented and found his strength in the Lord previously he would not have prevailed with any heavenly Angel. But now in his trouble he does prevail and pleads for the blessing.

The same with God's faithful in the end, it will be a time of pleading for deliverance and begging for His blessing.
And they prevail, because they have previously repented and committed themselves to God.

They are delivered.

Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: Elle] #156935
10/07/13 10:42 PM
10/07/13 10:42 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Originally Posted By: Elle

The first, is found in Gen 33:17 “Jacob journeyed to Succoth, and built himself a house, and made booths[sukkoth, tents] for his livestock: therefore the name of the place is called Succoth.”

This place was in Canaan. Notice that Jacob build himself a house and not a sukkah when he finally arrived in Canaan. It was his livestock(sheep and goats) that he build sukkoth for; thus he was led to called that place Sukkoth.

Initially, this text seems contradictory for why name a place Sukkoth when he didn't build any for himself???
No. No it doesn't. Are places named only for people?

Re: Time of trouble = Jacob's Trouble [Re: His child] #156936
10/07/13 11:12 PM
10/07/13 11:12 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
I don't know of any special event that made the news. But Yom kippur is in either Sept or Oct every year. This year it was on 9/23/13.
Could you show that to be true? I believe some would disagree. I just want to know how you know this.


The Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar. If lunar months are 28 days long, in time it becomes out of sync with the solar calendar. So they add a 13th month every so often (Adar II) to keep it aligned. here are 2 links that you can check our for more information.
Yes, I understand the calendars are different, but why September and not October? Which one is correct? Why do people like these say it is in October? http://www.lightedway.org/html/calendar13.pdf

Probably has to do with the starting point. What starts it? Who's right?

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