Do you stone sabbath breakers? Glutinous kids? Adulterers? If not, why now?

Not a if not, but a if so. Again no law is nail to the cross. So my answer is Yes. These laws are also a Types and Shaddow of things to come as other laws. So you can put your literal application aside for awhile and this to be understood and applied SPIRITUALLY (or in another word to come to know the mind of Christ for what He meant when He gave this law). Find out what is the stone symbolism means in the Bible and you will have a good chunk of your answer. Also we have the case of David who was guilty of adultery and murder that will reveal to us how the Lord apply this law on Him.

So we should SPIRITUALLY stone those that pick up sticks, and the case of Cozbi should have been treated more like David. Or perhaps we need to understand the Old and New Covenants better...

Intead of making fun of the law...put some effort in trying to understand it by first figuring out what the symbolic meaning of stone is. Remember that the Lord told us in Number 12:8 that he speaks in "DARK SPEECHES" (in riddles that needs to be solve). The whole law is also written in "Dark Speeches" -- that Paul describes as Types and shadows.

Great! Glad to see this.


You are twisting things here again in the attempt to keep your pre-conceived idea and to make the Lord’s laws void. The “obligations” we were under was to pay the debt note -- not to offer a substitute sacrifice. Offering substitute sacrifices for our sins is a Pagan ritual and is not part of God’s way of justice. Read Col 2:14 again it was the “certificate of debt” that Jesus took away by His death. In another word He is our Redeemer who came to pay for our debt that our sins has incurred.

This brings up three main Biblical principle :

1)sin = debt;

2)Jesus death was a covering(atonement) which is further define as a redemption of debt;

3)The Law of Jubilee defines
--->a) how debts are dealt with
--->b)the rights of the Redeemer to pay for the debt
--->c)the debt is transferred to the Redeemer
--->d)the sinner now works for the Redeemer to pay its debt
--->e)forgiveness of all debts after 7x7 (on the 50th year).

1) Sin is Equated as a debt.

When we break the law(=sin), the judge in the earthly court usually sentence us a fine(=debt). We find the same principle in the Bible. Sin is equated as a debt in both the law and in the NT. Jesus taught us a base prayer that shows us this in Mat 6:12 “ And forgive us our DEBTS, as we also have forgiven our DEBTORS.". Luke records the same prayer a little differently: “And forgive us our SINS; for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is INDEBTED to us…” Luk 11:4

This is because in the law, a sin is a debt that is owed to the victim. Ex 22:3 says “3 … He shall surely make restitution; if he owns nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4 If what he stole is actually found alive in his possession, whether an ox or a donkey or a sheep, he shall pay double.”

This law say if he stole something, the judgment is that he owes two time the item. However in the case "the sheep" was sold or killed, the law requires he pays the victim 4 times.

So we see that sin = a debt note. Here’s an example where we find the Lord applying this law. First a little background of the sin-debt that Israel incurred. The nation of Israel was given land(Canaan) and failed to deliver the good fruits of the Kingdom that was owed to the Lord. We read in the vineyard song in Is 5:1-7 that the Lord expected to receive from Israel some good fruits. What He received was sour and unedible fruits. Jesus applies Is 5 to the nation of Judah in Mat 21:33-43 saying the fruits were stolen – either way in both cases the Lord was deprived of the good fruits due to Him from His own work in establishing the vineyard.

So Israel failed to deliver the good fruits expected(=theft) so we see that the Lord applied the Ex 22:3 theft law to Israel. We read in Judges 4:2 saying “The Lord SOLD them to Jabin, King of Canaan” (another example in Judges 10:7). Basically Israel was found guilty of sin by not delivering the good fruits of the Kingdom that was owed to the Lord in the Divine Court. Since Israel “owns nothing” they “were sold for their theft” as according to Ex 22:3. We find that Israel were sold to another nation 6 times in the book of Judges.

In these SALE transactions, Israel became the servant of that foreign nation. It also means that the foreign nation, had “bought” Israel debt note and were now responsible to pay it by delivering the good fruits of the Kingdom. In essence this other nation had “redeemed” Israel’s debt note and the responsibility to pay (to produce the good fruits the Lord’s requires) fell on them. Not necessarily a blessing but a curse if you cannot deliver. Of course they couldn't delliver and were judge also. Not a good thing for any foreign nation that redeemed the debt; but for Israel, having a redeemer they received mercy for it liberated them from the responsibility of the debt and gave them time to repent.


2)Sin-Debt covered by the Redeemer

The above is the basic law-principle how sin-debt is dealt with. A Redeemer is necessary to pay for the debt note. This is what Christ did for us by taking our obligation of the debt note away from us. However, as noted in the example above, the debt note was not cancelled but it was only transferred to the Redeemer who has to pay for it. Israel was to work for its Redeemer(the foreign nation or as applied to us we work for Christ our Redeemer) as it is also described in this way in the Law of Jubilee.

The Law of Jubilee is the only place in the Bible that clearly defines a Redeemer.

Jesus, the second Adam, will deliver the good fruits of the Kingdom on earth. This responsibility was first given to the First Adam who was commanded to subdue the earth and be fruitful. He failed…and incurred a big debt. Jesus refers to this in Mathew 18:25 where the man who couldn’t pay that large debt, its judgment was that the man, his wife, his children and all that he had were sold to pay for the debt. The responsibility to pay the debt kept on being passed down. It went to Abraham who was prophetically promised that his seed(pointing to Christ) will bless all the families of the earth. In the time being, the responsibility of the debt was pass down to the nation of Israel and so on and so forth… until it went to Christ.

3)The Law of Jubilee – defines the ultimate Sabbath rest after 7 years x 7 + 1 year = 50th year

It defines how a debt is legally dealt with. Basically the law of Jubilee is the foundation where all other laws rest upon. It gives the complete picture of the plan of salvation by which we have the 7th year Sabbath(only a forebearance of debt) pointing to and climaxing to the Jubilee year Sabbath rest(forgiveness of all debts) where everyone is restored back to their inheritance after the maximum time allotted to pay for the debt by producing the good fruits(thru the ministry of Christ) the Lord has required from the beginning of time.

Hmmm...

Excellent post Elle.

Although, I would have thought circumcision instead of Pentecost.

Elle said:

"Offering substitute sacrifices for our sins is a Pagan ritual and is not part of God’s way of justice."


Are you saying the Old Testament sacrificial system instituted by God was "a Pagan ritual"?

Jesus, the Lamb of God, offered Himself in our place. He took our punishment, paid our debt. Was His "substitute sacrifice" "a Pagan ritual"???

By the way Elle, what does any of this have to do with Stephen Jones' claim:

"The Saturday Sabbath, as I showed, was based upon Passover. The Sunday Sabbath was based upon the presentation of the Son to the Father, followed by Pentecost."

"Is this belief supported by the Bible?"



You have led us on a merry chase, but isn't it time you got back to the OP?
How exactly does all of this spiritualization of the law change the Seventh Day Sabbath to Sunday?

As you are so fond of saying: "get back to the topic, please"!

From my own studies(and this doesn’t come from Stephen at all as he never address this), this “substitution” notion stem from mis-understanding Isaiah 53:5 and from not understanding the meaning of the law of redemption or the sacrifices.

I made it very clear it my explanation my view why(read it again) and I never said nor even closely implied that Jesus sacrifice was pagan.

ProdigalOne, this is the third time(even 4th or more as I let many of them pass by) I catch you misrepresenting what I said (false witness). Be careful OK.

Again if you want to dig more into it, it would require to open another discussion because this type of study will require to go all over the Bible.

To understand what Stephen said above and see what Biblical basis he has to come to this, we need to recognize the whole law is still relevant like he (& I) does. This cannot be explained without looking at the other Sabbath laws and the Feasts Sabbath laws.

To repeat myself, I personally don't view everything like he does. The article you brought forth in the OP, I understand & agree with most(98%) what he said. I also recognize he understand the law much much more than I.

However Stephen (or anyone that speaks biblical stuff like I'm doing and all others here is doing on this forum) is only an "unclean" man that whatever proceeds from our mouth is “unclean” or “carnal”. Everything heard has to be filtered and confirmed by the Holy Spirit to the hearers himself. We should never accepts anything from anyone without this work of the Holy Spirit. If we do we are eating unclean spiritual foods -- even if the food comes from Moses himself and everything he says is the pure Word of God.

The Holy Spirit has not confirm this to me yet. Confirmation does not always happens emmediatly, actually most of the time it takes time for the law requires that the spiritual food be “chewed”(meditated) upon before hand and be confirmed by the Holy spirit.

Stephen could have a heart idol in that area, that’s possible. He never claims infallibility and always acknowledge that he still has some heart idols like any of us.

I do hope for myself that this study will help shed some more light on this.

I don't know if everyone is ready to move forward yet or even wants to go any further. Maybe some time is needed. I don’t know.

Did we established that the whole law is still relevant? Which means the other Sabbaths (All feasts Sabbaths, the yearly Sabbath, and the Jubilee Sabbath) are relevant.

Are we ready to look now what the Bible says about these other Sabbaths and what they mean?

If you look at my last long post above, I did attempt to stear this discussion back to the topic by linking the debt note to the yearly & Jubilee Sabbath. Did you read it?