I think you're on the wrong thread. I have a thread on Daniel 7 in the Private Forums sections. Is that why I'm not making sense? But now that you're here, did you look at my paper (see the above link) on Ellen White's application of most of Daniel and Revelation to the future? I'd be interested in your comments/thoughts.

(bold emphasis mine)

I know you have another thread on Daniel 7. That is why I mentioned it.

You see, if we stick to that thread and learn those lessons in understanding Bible prophecy, I think that will clear up a lot of the confusion in this thread.

But, I'll read that link when I find it.

Blessings Mark,

The writer of this document errors in his understanding as well.

For instance, he quotes Sister White as saying;

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {14MR 287.1}

Now, here is the understanding rendered;

"This statement is one of a group of similar statements where Ellen White makes a future application to the trumpets and seals of Revelation." (bold emphasis mine)

First of all, the seals are not even mentioned. The Ellen White quote mentions trumpets and vials. The vials are the plagues which are still future, if you are talking about the seven last plagues in Revelation.

As far as the trumpets go, there are other trumpets other than those seven trumpets in Revelation. For instance; There is the Trump of God in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. There are also plagues other than the seven last plagues of Revelation.

So, I don't see the confusion. But, I do see a lot of misunderstanding.

Maybe Mark, you could comment on the article you linked to.

Yes, I’m aware – but really it’s the Lord that is unorthodox :+) His thoughts are not like our thoughts (Is 55:8,9). Often His thoughts and ways are unorthodox to our pre-conceived ideas and our limited understanding of the divine plan.

To comment on “learning to prophesy” somehow we limit our definition of prophesy with forecasting or understanding what is to come in the future. Jesus said about John the Baptist to be the greatest prophet ever born (Lk 7:28) yet he never gave any prediction. He was just 6 months older than Jesus and his brief ministry was to prepare the way for Jesus and bare witness of Him. I believe that John’s prophetic greatness that Jesus was praising lies in his ability to repeat only the word of God as he received it without adding or subtracting to it and only do what he saw the Father do. Basically John walked as Jesus walked. We all know we are called to walk as Jesus who – cease (the proper definition of Sabbath) from all [carnal]speech and work by only saying what He heard the Father say, and by only doing what He saw the Father do. This is what I believe what we need to develop while we “learn to prophesy” – then all our speech and all our actions will be the Lord’s words and actions and in essence is “prophesy” because it is not our own. However, this is highly dependant on our ability to hear our Father’s voice clearly and differentiate it from our own voice. That’s where the great difficulty lies as you pointed out. I’ve been in this learning process for the past 7 years by which some tools the Lord has provided helps us; despite much can only be learned via life experiences.

I believe our biggest hindrance in hearing correctly the Lord is our heart’s idols. Heart’s idols are teachings of men or our pre-conceived ideas : of the Lord’s character, what is His ways, how He judges, what is his intentions behind His laws, what constitute His plan of salvation, what is His will, and etc. Heart’s idols distort everything twisting the pure “Word of God” whether if His word comes from our dreams or visions, hearing His voice when He talks to us, from reading scripture, or from life experiences. Heart idols make us blind.

Our first lesson to learn is to put these heart idols aside for the Lord warns us if we come to Him with heart’s idols that – “I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols” (Ezek 14:3,4). This goes contrary to what our Church “orthodox” teachings. No, this text does not say the Lord is going to correct us with the truth; but the very opposite -- He will answer us according to the multitude of our heart idols. I think this means we will see or read everything thru the eye glasses of our idols and we will find support for them almost everywhere and our heart’s idols will be magnified. In the same sense when the Israelites despised the manna and wanted to eat flesh food – well he will give us “flesh” – fleshy teachings of men until it gets us sick. This is a vevy serious warning that we shouldn’t take lightly. So I think any sons-of-God-in-training-during-Pentecost’s-growth-level-of-faith must learn (which includes any prophets in training) to set aside our heart idols. I don’t think the Lord is asking that we bring down those heart idols; but only to set them aside. In another word, to acknowledge that our understanding is limited, shallow, and most likely with errors of some sort. Any interpretation of any Word received or of scriptures must be provided by the Holy Spirit.

We all have heart idols which I view is the “leavened” in us; thus we do not see Him yet face to face. My view is those heart-idols comes down in proportion to what He personally reveal to us as we learn more of His truth, His ways, and His mind. That’s the whole essence of the purpose of Pentecost. Pentecost is a “leavened” feast because the offering was two leavened loaves (Lev 23:17) which represents us who still have heart idols(=sin). It only becomes an acceptable offering to the Lord if the TWO loaves are “baked” in the fire which represents the Holy Spirit. Why TWO loaves? This probably points to the law of double witness to establish any truth on earth. The law of double witness is a tool the Lord uses to speaks/confirms things to us.


Yes that is very good and very healthy. They did us right to say that and lawfully promoting that we go to the Holy Spirit.

Concerning what I have highlighted above, the Lord did provide us with tools to help us distinguish which thoughts, revelation, or [spiritual] food are “clean” from those that are “unclean”. These are found in the food laws (Lev 11 & Deut 14). I will only briefly mention them but a more thorough study of all the food laws equips us with vital [spiritual] dietary principles for all sons of God in training which deserve our attention and meditation.

In brief, the first part of the law concerning which beast of the earth to eat teaches us the beasts that are “clean” must “chew the cud” and have “hoofs split in two”. In application, no [spiritual] food is considered clean unless the sons of God “chews their cud” (=ponder or meditate on it) and have it stand on two separate hoofs that have contact on the earth (=double witness to establish something on earth). Only the Holy Spirit can provide the necessary witnesses in some fashion to establish that this thought, or revelation, or what you heard preached, or your understanding of that text, or etc… is indeed a “clean” food.

This law also teaches us the manner in which to present [spiritual] food to others. We must always allow time for the hearer to “chew their cud” and ask the Lord for a double witness to establish the validity of the food that is being presented. If anyone insist that people must believe him without question or time, then he renders the food unclean, regardless of how true the food may be.

The problem is not always with the messenger presenting the food. If a person refuses to hear the Holy Spirit’s voice, then they are eating “unclean” foods because they accept what we say without the Holy Spirit’s double witness. In essence, they are eating our “flesh” instead of Christ’s “flesh”. Only the Holy Spirit can convert whatever come out of our mortal mouth into Christ’s flesh. This was Israel’s problem when they refuse to hear the word from the Holy Spirit at Mt. Sinai and sent Moses to hear on their behalf. (Ex 20:19) They erroneously thought that Moses' witness was sufficient and thus wanted to eat “unclean” [spiritual] foods in an unlawful manner.

Chewing the cud (=meditating) is as important as receiving a double witness in order to extract its full nutritional value and to turn it from “flesh” to spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can give us understanding so we can properly assimilate the [spiritual] food and make it part of us.

Both “chewing the cud” and receiving a double witness from the Holy Spirit are both required to render any food as “clean”. So allowing time to meditate and putting the people (or ourselves) in the hands of the Holy Spirit is essential in partaking of any [spiritual] food.


For sure, I do not doubt one bit that the Lord is talking to James and to you. For example, I perceived that the word you heard last spring was the Lord’s. I like how you quoted these to make a distinction from the remaining of what you wrote. The Lord gives us room to speculate or ask questions during our pondering of the meaning of what we heard or seen or felt as an impression as long as we do not treat these as Truths.

The seafood laws can help clarify how to handle speculation or our time of pondering or questioning a subject, or when we read secular information or scientific papers and etc. Often pieces of truths are mixes in the theories of men. In brief, the seafood laws helps us to stay safe while swimming in the sea of [theories of ] men (Rev 17:15) by which our own theories would be included in this category. The scales represents the armor of God (Eph 6:13-17) that protects us. The fins represents the guidance of the Holy Spirit who will lead the way thru the sea of the knowledge of men avoiding us to eat dung foods(teachings of men) and helping us to extract the gems that are His.

The bird food laws teaches us to avoid birds(=spirits) of prey because they are bloodthirsty. To me this means to avoid eating [spiritual] foods that is bloodthirsty in spirit or sharing [spiritual] foods with a bloodthirsty attitude & spirit. The purpose of blood is to atone (cover - intercede) for the sins of the world whereas those that uses [spiritual] foods to expose the sins of others by accusation and violence are in essence being “bloodthirsty”. The Lord is the mediator of the world, and we, the body of Christ, should be also having the same mind, heart and purpose. Interpretations, teachings, or our views have a spirit. These spirits needs to be tested also (1Jn 4:1).

I think in essence EJ Waggoner understood thia "bird food" law and applied this in all his studies and meditation of the Word after Christ gave him an “extra-Biblical revelation” of “Christ reconciling the world unto Himself”. After his personal revelation included in the quote below, if he couldn’t see this revelation [=spirit of the purpose of His blood] in any other text in the bible he was studying, then to him he didn’t understand it and refuse to teach it to anyone.

Another point worth considering, my understanding is the Lord does not give a revelation only to one person but likes to disperse revelation to many… the info is similar having parts that repeat while providing different pieces of the puzzles to each individuals so that we learn to depend on one another so to unite us and learn to function as a body even when it comes to revelation. I believe the Holy Spirit works at both levels: corporately and individually. For sure individuals and even corporate churches can be at different level of faith, nevertheless the Lord guides and speaks to all and we need to encourage this.

We need to be careful not to isolate ourselves or view ourselves separate from the body or greater than any individual including the unbelievers who have not yet entered into the Lord’s Kingdom. We are just not all at the same level of faith. Some has just recently entered Passover(babes), others have already crossed into Pentecost(teenagers) and are learning to hear and obey God’s voice, while some few others have entered into Tabernacle level of faith(mediators). All have to go thru the same path but at the Lord’s orchestrated different timing. That’s why in the law the Lord provided 3 harvests that depicts the different timings of readiness of each groups. This was always so and time constraint is not a factor for the Lord. We need to see everyone in the eyes and foreknowledge of the Lord.

Then we have different purposes – all working together in the plan of the Lord. For sure there’s many in the Church whom their holy work is to stone others, as strangely as it sounds. They rarely bring any legitimate argument or piece of revelation received for the body. Despite, they have their purposes and I understand that their work is needed and part of the Lord’s plan too. It doesn’t mean that the Lord isn’t going to put a word in their mouth for us to hear that in it will bring to us a revelation. So in essence the Lord can use them or anyone to prophesy without them having any notion that they are speaking for the Lord.

I personally like the forum to test things. I think it’s a great tool for us and especially a small forum like Maritime online. Those that does bring feedbacks that are Biblical and have weight on the subject at hand, I view them as “messengers” from the Lord to revise our thoughts so we can identify the “mistakes impression” from the inspired one. I now see that Prophets or “messengers” can comes in all forms and shapes and even from places or a time not expected. The Lord can speak thru many living things even a donkey. Even objects, events, songs, astral objects, appointed time, etc.. really their no limits for the Lord to convey a message.


I agree! That’s what I understand from Deut 13:1-5, Is 8:20 and 1Cor 3:11-15.

Great post Elle and well said. Your thoughts came shining through shimmering with an appealing French-Canadian aura. It was all a great read - John the Baptist, clean spiritual foods etc. Thanks for taking the time. I especially liked the thoughts below:



Yes we have to be open to the truth that even our worst enemies have. This was a major part of the genius of Abraham Lincoln's leadership. He learned volumes from his enemies and opponents and harnessed their good points in his cause. He was known for enlisting them in his administration.

It's not possible to do that - learn from those hostile to us - and at the same time be a scoffer. So I'm like you. I really appreciate this forum as a place to vet my ideas because regardless of the hostile reactions I sometimes get, I always learn something. My thanks to Daryl and team for providing the freedom of expression you find here over the last 15 years.

There is a down side to this. Some of those who aren't yet equipped to handle personal attacks, instead of bridling their tongues and keyboards, reply defensively and, sad to say, over the years I've seen the forum become a stumbling block to more than one or two.

Let me add one more thought about turning freedom of expression into a licence for thrusts and jabs. The low level of tolerance, love and courtesy that's displayed here so often on Maritime Online tends to give a casual observer the impression that this is the norm. And it is too often the norm here but it's not the norm of heaven and it's not the norm for other forums. For those who are open, I recommend having a look at the dialogues on Z3 News. It's open to the public. I can't remember if you have to register to post, but the norm there is love and respect. Check out the comments section following a typical blog. Meditate on the difference in spirits and the fact that these folk don't know nearly as much of the theory of the truth that we do. Salvation is of the "Jews" but once again, the Samaritans are outdoing us "Jews." Remember what Christ did to the fruitless fig tree? Brothers and Sisters, judgement starts with us. It's time to pray like Daniel did in chapter 9, starting with close examination of ourselves.

Freedom of speech and conscient for the Lord to guide us is what the reformation fought for. Probably at Z3news people at the forum learned the hard way to not stone others because they were stoned themselves for their "unorthodox" views. So they have repented because of a result of the great works of the stoners. Stoners and persecutioners are very important in the divine plan. Acording to the law -- these does a "most Holy work" for every thing they touch becomes holy. (very excellent study by which I don't remember where exactly the text is found right now).

I, myself, remember in my early years at the forums; I was also abusing others. It took lots of time(many years) for the Lord to bring me to repentance of that and also lots of time to learn to forive others. I'm "nice" today only because of the Lord's Holy work in sending stoners at me and opening up some scriptures to my mind. Today I do realize that without my stoners and without those that have persecuted me, I would be still stoning myself. I am very grateful for their work. I share the same sentiment as Joseph when he said to his brothers :

AV Gn 50:19 "And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God? 20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive." Yeah they though evil in doing what they did to Joseph, however it is thanks to their great work that God was able to sanctify Joseph with it and prepare him for such position to save many. They "thought evil" however "God meant it for good". We need to see events, even the negatives one in the Lord's eyes and tru His great fabulous plan He has set up.

Yes I agree, judgment starts at the house of the Lord.

Good thing the Lord has a plan to bring down the rain to bring us into repentance. I don't believe, from experience, we can repent of our own without His careful work in preparing us to receive it.

Also, we need to keep in mind that it is the Lord who makes the blind, the deaf, and the dumb. and "AV Ex 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

In a similar way, the Lord has put Abraham asleep when he made His covenant known today as the "new covenant". This "putting Abraham asieep" event in itself is prophesy. We now see that He has also put His Church "asleep" because He has resolve to bring about His plan Himself. The new covenant is entirely dependant on His promise and not based on the ability of the "flesh".

The very few (a remnant) that is somewhat half awake still have no great understanding of what is going on overall. This is what my view of the Lord's good pleasure and His Sovereignty signature in the events of His plan -- so that at the end we will acknowledge it is the Lord that has saved us in all 3 levels(Passover=Justification, Pentecost=sanctification, and Tabernacle=glorification) of our spiritual walk.

I expect a very successful and very huge harvest before Jesus 2nd coming. I don't think the rain is going to make miracles by bringing anyone to "perfection" in by-passing any of the spiritual levels of growth. I think the rain will bring us all in the next level of spiritual growth depending on where we were located before it.

Also I expect some believers (hopefully not too many) that will be like Jonah -- angry that the Lord did not destroy the people and not impressed with the successful rate of the conversions. The reason why is given by Jesus' parable of the evil servant whose big debt was forgiven by the King but didn't want to extend the same forgiveness to others. In the story of Jonah, he from the start didn't want the Lord to forgive the people of Ninevah. I think Ninevah represents the unbelievers of the World.

I view these events(the unforgiving attitude and poutting servant after the facts) as prophecy. I do hope that the fact that many believers will be poutting at the role of the coming events will help them see their own hearts and repent. Hopefully Johah did repent but the story doesn't say so and I don't know. We also don't know how things will play out once the latter rain falls and the effect of the "evil servants". But for sure I do expect that there will be some (mostly those the Lord caught beating of their fellow servants Luk 12:45) that will not repent and will be cast out of the house. However Jesus did says they will still have their portion [of inheritance], just not with the overcomers but with the unbelievers. (Luk 12:46)

I agree. There's a mystery here. On the one hand the Lord tells us to rend our hearts not our garments. We do have an essential role in repenting. On the other, it's equally clear in scripture that repentance is a divine gift of grace.

Taking your analogy of the Tabernacles level of faith, I have to say you're on to something important. I wouldn't want to leave any reader with the impression that we can expect the latter rain without receiving the early rain first: That is, we have to be at the latter rain level of spiritual growth before the latter rain can ripen us in the final stage of growth. But you're right that repentance is central at every stage including the very final stages of growth.

In addition to the prophetic significance of Abraham being given the covenant in his sleep, Isaiah and Daniel are also types of those who receive the covenant and final endowment of the Spirit. In both cases they are simultaneously impressed with their undone condition. Isaiah 6:5 and Daniel 10:8 Repentance is a prerequisite to our enlightenment. Our sense of need for the merits of Christ's righteousness and our appreciation for the sacrifice of Christ is directly proportional to our understanding of our undone and unworthy condition. And yet at the same time, the Father's infinite gift to us of His only Son underscores the value of the soul in heaven's eyes.

Mark, I did add the 3 first paragraphes and some minor corrections for clarification while you were responding. Sorry about that.