Hm - do you think the translators of the KJV were so truly blinded or perhaps their knowledge of God worse than yours? Do take your view that since as EGW says, the 10C are a transcript of God's character, that God must then kill sinners in order to eradicate sin? Or will sin cause the death of the sinner? As dedication, EGW writings agree with scripture and in her writings, she is clear that the natural consequences of sin is death, not execution of God Read {ST April 14, 1898}. She also has interestings to day about the deep study of Greek. Read {Lt303, 1903} a letter, parts of which green has misinterpreted before, as to what it says about learning Greek, or Latin. She has written others places about this. What does she say to study? Study the life of Christ. Follow Him from the manger to Calvary. Act as He acted. The great principles which He maintained, you are to maintain. Your standard is to be the character of Him who was pure, holy, and undefiled. That is how we should interpret the Law for the true meaning. Yes, the translators of the KJV got it right when viewed from Christ who is THE TRUTH.

I have a confession to make. I used to worship Baal of Peor (in KJV Baalpeor). He's a powerful god that offer immediate satisfaction. I repented however at times I still find myself being drawn to him for what he offers.

Did anyone here ever fancy him or still fancy him?

Perhaps we are attributing an unwarranted precision to words. In math, the language is very precise - you mean exactly what you say. But it is not so with English, Hebrew, or Greek. Failure to take this into account can lead to focusing on the letter rather than the spirit.

Consider this parable.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, don't hit your sister.
Jack: OK.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. I struck her.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. I smote her.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. I punched her.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. I kicked her.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. I bumped her.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. The stick did.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. The pole did.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. The rod did.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. The hammer did.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't. The ground did.
Jill: Ow!
Mommy: Jack, I told you not to hit your sister.
Jack: I didn't.......

It may be that God used a particular word at a particular time. But we can't conclusively say that He only meant one thing. Neither can we say that the word always means the same thing every time He used it. If we are looking for that kind of precision, the 10C would have needed a mountain of stone to write.

There is but one path to heaven--the strait and narrow way. Of those who enter this path the Lord says, "Ye are My witnesses." Those only who love God supremely and their neighbor as themselves can walk in this way. Christ says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." We are to follow Christ in everything, conforming our lives to His teachings. {Lt68-1903}

I am instructed to say to our people, Let us follow Christ. We may safely discard all ideas that are not included in His teachings. {BCL 99.4}

Objections to the Bible

Human minds vary. The minds of different education and thought receive different impressions of the same words, and it is difficult for one mind to give to one of a different temperament, education, and habits of thought by language exactly the same idea as that which is clear and distinct in his own mind. Yet to honest men, right-minded men, he can be so simple and plain as to convey his meaning for all practical purposes. If the man he communicates with is not honest and will not want to see and understand the truth, he will turn his words and language in everything to suit his own purposes. He will misconstrue his words, play upon his imagination, wrest them from their true meaning, and then entrench himself in unbelief, claiming that the sentiments are all wrong. {Ms24-1886}

This is the way my writings are treated by those who wish to misunderstand and pervert them. They turn the truth of God into a lie. In the very same way that they treat the writings in my published articles and in my books, so do skeptics and infidels treat the Bible. They read it according to their desire to pervert, to misapply, to wilfully wrest the utterances from their true meaning. They declare that the Bible can prove anything and everything, that every sect proves their doctrines right, and that the most diverse doctrines are proven from the Bible. {Ms24-1886}

The writers of the Bible had to express their ideas in human language. It was written by human men. These men were inspired of the Holy Spirit. Because of the imperfections of human understanding of language, or the perversity of the human mind, ingenious in evading truth, many read and understand the Bible to please themselves. It is not that the difficulty is in the Bible. Opposing politicians argue points of law in the statute book and take opposite views in their application and in these laws. {Ms24-1886}

The Scriptures were given to men, not in a continuous chain of unbroken utterances, but piece by piece through successive generations, as God in His providences saw a fitting opportunity to impress man at sundry times and divers places. Men wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Ghost. There is "first the bud, then the blossom, and next the fruit," "first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear." This is exactly what the Bible utterances are to us. {Ms24-1886}

There is not always perfect order or apparent unity in the Scriptures. The miracles of Christ are not given in exact order, but are given just as the circumstances occurred, which called for this divine revealing of the power of Christ. The truths of the Bible are as pearls hidden. They must be searched, dug out by painstaking effort. Those who take only a surface view of the Scriptures will, with their superficial knowledge, which they think is very deep, talk of the contradictions of the Bible and question the authority of the Scriptures. But those whose hearts are in harmony with truth and duty will search the Scriptures with a heart prepared to receive divine impressions. The illuminated soul sees a spiritual unity, one grand golden thread running through the whole, but it requires patience, thought, and prayer to trace out the precious golden thread. Sharp contentions over the Bible have led to investigation and revealed the precious jewels of truth. Many tears have been shed, many prayers offered that the Lord would open the understanding to His Word. {Ms24-1886}

The Bible is not given to us in grand superhuman language. Jesus, in order to reach man where he is, took humanity. The Bible must be given in the language of men. Everything that is human is imperfect. Different meanings are expressed by the same word; there is not one word for each distinct idea. The Bible was given for practical purposes. {Ms24-1886}

The stamps of minds are different. All do not understand expressions and statements alike. Some understand the statements of the Scriptures to suit their own particular minds and cases. Prepossessions, prejudices, and passions have a strong influence to darken the understanding and confuse the mind even in reading the words of Holy Writ. {Ms24-1886}

The disciples traveling to Emmaus needed to be disentangled in their interpretation of the Scriptures. Jesus walked with them disguised, and as a man He talked with them. Beginning at Moses and the prophets, He taught them in all things concerning Himself, that His life, His mission, His sufferings, His death were just as the Word of God had foretold. He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. How quickly He straightened out the tangled ends and showed the unity and divine verity of the Scriptures. How much men in these times need their understanding opened. {Ms24-1886}

The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. {Ms24-1886}

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions, but on the man himself, who under the influence of the Holy Ghost is imbued with thoughts. But the words and thoughts receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the Word of God. {Ms24-1886}

That's a cute parable -- until Jack started to use the hammer. Did you write that?



That's a good way to water down the power of the Word; if that's your objective. But from what I've known you from this forum, you don't strike me as such an individual. I believe you seek to behold the Lord's power.

Jesus is the Word. We know He spoke creation into existence with Words. There's power in His words and language. To say such statement does show that you haven't tasted the Hebrew language. If you had, you would understand the following :

"The study of the Bible in a translation is incomparable to that of the original. So much is lost in the understanding that no person can be considered a man of understanding unless he has a fluent understanding of Hebrew."

The "fluent understanding of Hebrew" doesn't mean you need to speak it or write it; but the study of the meaning of one word at a time will add so much insight. It is a window to the Lord's mind. Many time there's a phylosophy (don't like that word- "His ways" is a better expression) that emerges from the words that is totally upside down from any Babylonian language. It's really totally different from any other language. You cannot compare it.

This is a good little explanation : http://www.jewishmag.com/58mag/hebrew/hebrew.htm

I was looking at that text and all other texts of ratsach yesterday. I think you have a good approach dedication and that's what we need to do to understand even further what ratsach means. I was impressed last week that this word is really important for us to study. I'm glad that Green brought this discussion.

There's only 47 occurrences of this word. Personally the way I usually tackle this is to group these occurrences by similarities. And then study each group at a time to derive its meaning.


Hatred is another word we need to look closer because it seems this is the key word employed by Moses that separates a ratsach murderer that deserves the death penalty versus not for other slayers because they haven't pre-hated previously.

Where is the line drawn for hatred? That's my current question as I was reading the other texts and stories.

Is anger, greed, selfishness the same as hatred? The line have to be made more clear.

I would recommend to use BlueLetterBible search tools https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7523&t=KJV
and/or Scriptures4all that is free to download.

I've been using on my computer scriptures4all for the past 6 (or +?) years. Great very amazing simple tool with interlinear of Hebrew(or Greek) words, Leningrad Codex, transliteration, English text, Strong codes, concordance, search tools,etc.... all in one view for a text. Rosangela uses this software also and she highly recommends it. http://www.scripture4all.org/

Here's the full rundown on "ratsach" in the Bible, without any of the commentary I usually like to add.

Lexicon Results Strong's H7523 - ratsach רָצַח Transliteration ratsach Pronunciation rä·tsakh' (Key) Part of Speech verb Root Word (Etymology) A primitive root TWOT Reference 2208 Outline of Biblical Usage to murder, slay, kill (Qal) to murder, slay premeditated accidental as avenger slayer (intentional) (participle) (Niphal) to be slain (Piel) to murder, assassinate murderer, assassin (participle)(subst) (Pual) to be killed Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 47 — slayer+16, murderer+14, kill+5, murder+3, slain+3, manslayer+2, killing+1, slayer(+0310)+1,+slayeth+1, +death+1 Strong's H7523 - ratsach Strong's Number H7523 matches the Hebrew רָצַח (ratsach), which occurs 47 times in 40 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. H7523 Num 35:6 And among the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites there shall be six cities for refuge, which ye shall appoint for the manslayer, H7523 that he may flee thither: and to them ye shall add forty and two cities. Num 35:11 Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer H7523 may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares. Num 35:12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer H7523 die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment. Num 35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: H7523 the murderer H7523 shall surely be put to death. Num 35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: H7523 the murderer H7523 shall surely be put to death. Num 35:18 Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: H7523 the murderer H7523 shall surely be put to death. Num 35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: H7523 when he meeteth him, he shall slay him. Num 35:21 Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: H7523 the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, H7523 when he meeteth him. Num 35:25 And the congregation shall deliver the slayer H7523 out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil. Num 35:26 But if the slayer H7523 shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled; Num 35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill H7523 the slayer; H7523 he shall not be guilty of blood: Num 35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer H7523 shall return into the land of his possession. Num 35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer H7523 shall be put to death H7523 by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die. Num 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, H7523 which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death. Deu 4:42 That the slayer H7523 might flee thither, which should kill H7523 his neighbour unawares, and hated him not in times past; and that fleeing unto one of these cities he might live: Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill. H7523 Deu 19:3 Thou shalt prepare thee a way, and divide the coasts of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to inherit, into three parts, that every slayer H7523 may flee thither. Deu 19:4 And this is the case of the slayer, H7523 which shall flee thither, that he may live: Whoso killeth his neighbour ignorantly, whom he hated not in time past; Deu 19:6 Lest the avenger of the blood pursue the slayer, H7523 while his heart is hot, and overtake him, because the way is long, and slay him; whereas he was not worthy of death, inasmuch as he hated him not in time past. Deu 22:26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth H7523 him, even so is this matter: Jos 20:3 That the slayer H7523 that killeth any person unawares and unwittingly may flee thither: and they shall be your refuge from the avenger of blood. Jos 20:5 And if the avenger of blood pursue after him, then they shall not deliver the slayer H7523 up into his hand; because he smote his neighbour unwittingly, and hated him not beforetime. Jos 20:6 And he shall dwell in that city, until he stand before the congregation for judgment, and until the death of the high priest that shall be in those days: then shall the slayer H7523 return, and come unto his own city, and unto his own house, unto the city from whence he fled. Jos 21:13 Thus they gave to the children of Aaron the priest Hebron with her suburbs, to be a city of refuge for the slayer; H7523 and Libnah with her suburbs, Jos 21:21 For they gave them Shechem with her suburbs in mount Ephraim, to be a city of refuge for the slayer; H7523 and Gezer with her suburbs, Jos 21:27 And unto the children of Gershon, of the families of the Levites, out of the other half tribe of Manasseh they gave Golan in Bashan with her suburbs, to be a city of refuge for the slayer; H7523 and Beeshterah with her suburbs; two cities. Jos 21:32 And out of the tribe of Naphtali, Kedesh in Galilee with her suburbs, to be a city of refuge for the slayer; H7523 and Hammothdor with her suburbs, and Kartan with her suburbs; three cities. Jos 21:38 And out of the tribe of Gad, Ramoth in Gilead with her suburbs, to be a city of refuge for the slayer; H7523 and Mahanaim with her suburbs, Jdg 20:4 And the Levite, the husband of the woman that was slain, H7523 answered and said, I came into Gibeah that belongeth to Benjamin, I and my concubine, to lodge. 1Ki 21:19 And thou shalt speak unto him, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Hast thou killed, H7523 and also taken possession? And thou shalt speak unto him, saying, Thus saith the LORD, In the place where dogs licked the blood of Naboth shall dogs lick thy blood, even thine. 2Ki 6:32 But Elisha sat in his house, and the elders sat with him; and the king sent a man from before him: but ere the messenger came to him, he said to the elders, See ye how this son of a murderer H7523 hath sent to take away mine head? look, when the messenger cometh, shut the door, and hold him fast at the door: is not the sound of his master's feet behind him? Job 24:14 The murderer H7523 rising with the light killeth the poor and needy, and in the night is as a thief. Psa 62:3 How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain H7523 all of you: as a bowing wall [shall ye be, and as] a tottering fence. Psa 94:6 They slay the widow and the stranger, and murder H7523 the fatherless. Pro 22:13 The slothful man saith, There is a lion without, I shall be slain H7523 in the streets. Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. H7523 Jer 7:9 Will ye steal, murder, H7523 and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; Hos 4:2 By swearing, and lying, and killing, H7523 and stealing, and committing adultery, they break out, and blood toucheth blood. Hos 6:9 And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder H7523 in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Since green is being arrogant and freely admits he won't give a definition, hows this from Numbers 35?

Nu 35:30 Whoso killeth <nakah> any person, the murderer <ratsach> shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.

If you got a definition from me, kland, why should you accept it? Don't you want it from the Bible? Then you can use your Bible to find it right? It is not within my power to stop you from reading your Bible, and I wouldn't want to. On the contrary, I would encourage you to keep studying it and finding these definitions there.

The verse you give does not provide a definition, although it does provide a distinction between two Hebrew words that is very useful for this discussion. Thank you.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I am instructed to say to our people, Let us follow Christ. We may safely discard all ideas that are not included in His teachings. {BCL 99.4}

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

Christ is the definition of truth.