Will, what do you mean by "completely immaculate"?

Peter wrote that newborn babes in Christ have laid "aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings." And James says anyone who has mastered the tongue is "a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body."

In what way are newborn babes unlike Jesus the moment they are born again?

Where in the Bible does God say newborn babes in Christ are born again with their former sins in tact?

In what way are born again believers different before and after they experience the miracle of rebirth?

Are we "created" anew in Christ when we're born again? Or, do we "evolve" from greater sins to lesser sins after we're born again?

Do born again believers mature in "righteousness and true holiness" from "faith to faith" and from "glory to glory" after they are born again? Or, do they gradually outgrow and overcome their moral imperfections over the course of a lifetime of sinning and repenting?

These are fair, albeit familiar, questions. Is anyone willing to address these questions and provide Bible answers?

Hi Mike,
When you are born again you are born again in Jesus Christ. When a person falls due to a weakness of theirs after they are born again (it does happen) they are not turned away from Jesus Christ but can ask for forgiveness since it is the goodness of God that leads all men to repentance. From what I have seen the pererctionism doctrine is almost if not a form of salvation by works since I have seen absolutely no information provided of repenting of a sin after you have been born again, but instead it falls on the premise of what a "converted" believer should not do and what constitutes a born again believer. Based on the information you have added basically no one who has sinned after they are born again is truly born again, and the verses provided in the Bible clearly state that if we say we have not sinned we make Jesus a liar (1 John 1:9), if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 John 1:8). There are many examples of people who sinned after they were converted such as Peter denying Christ, King David lusting, aommiting adultery and murder, the thief on the Cross who was being crucified for his own crime believed in Jesus Christ without baptism, nor a 6 week Bible class, but was saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
To say otherwise with no way out basically condemns everyone of not being truly converted. That is what I have seen. Besides that the point of the topic is not perfectionism, but it is on the question of 'What must I do to be saved'. The more complicated it gets, and the more hoops we have to jump through to answer questions that lead us away from Christ only adds more firepower to the basic simple fact that a person needs to believe in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest. There is not 1 human who can make a person perfect, but it is when God leads that person in Truth that they will be shown the error of their ways and repent and continue to grow in Jesus Christ..
God Bless,
Will

Will, I agree with the idea we are saved on the basis of what Jesus did for us and not what He does in and through us. I'm sorry if anything I've posted implied otherwise.

Also, I think you will agree that I've never posted anything to the effect that born again believers are incapable of resurrecting the mind of the old man and committing a known sin. Nor have I ever insinuated post-conversion sinning indicates the believer was never truly born again in the first place.

Sister White teaches clearly that God can justify no one who has not confessed and forsaken their sins. She says, "God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place...." How many known sins, if any, does this insight exclude?

FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Is anybody willing to answer the questions I've posted in the last few posts?

At the moment the jailer and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, they were saved, they were born again, and they were then baptized. I don't believe you can separate being saved from being born again.

What happened to them after that wasn't revealed to us in the Bible, therefore, we can't comment any further on that except to say that, if they endure to the end, they will be saved.

Will, are you implying that 1 John 1:6-10 insinuates we are born again with our former sins in tact?

SL 68, 69
The epistles of John breathe a spirit of love. But when he comes in contact with that class who break the law of God and yet claim that they are living without sin, he does not hesitate to warn them of their fearful deception. "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 John 1:6-10).

MAR 224
Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {Mar 224.4}

Daryl, in light of what the rest of the Bible tells us about born again newborn babes in Christ it would not be stretching the truth to infer the jailer and his family met the conditions of rebirth and salvation as defined by God Himself in the Bible.

What do you make of Sister White's insights in FW 100?

Mike,
1 John 1:6-10 clearly states in the present tense if someone walk in darkness, and also states that by walking in thwe Light we have fellowship with Christ, and it also clearly states that if we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and make Jesus a liar, and it also clearly states that if you do messs up which is going to happen at least 1 X in your post converted life that guess what.. We can come to Christ and He will forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness notice it didnt say error, or if you ate some pizza, or drank coffee or got wasted.. it clearly says He will forgive us our sins meaning current post-converted sin that was done. I don't feel comfortable adding to Scripture or implying or insinuating anything. The Bible will interpret itself and anything that contradicts what is clearly stated in Scripture is clearly a contradiction. DOes the Bible teach that no one has fsinned after they have been converted.. Nope, does it teach that we are to obey God yes, does the Bible teach if we do sin we can be cleanbsed of sin yes it does.

God Bless,
Will

Will wrote:

quote:

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Does the Bible teach that no one has sinned after they have been converted...

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Will, where in the Bible does God say they will sin after they have been converted, born again?

Will, assuming that 1 John 1:6-10 clearly teaches born again believers, who are abiding in Christ, who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, continue to sin and repent [which it doesn't] - then how do we reconcile the following insights:

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Would someone please take the time to address the questions I've posted on this page. Thank you.

Mike,
Again it amazes me at how you attempt to go ahead and change the topic to suit your own purposes. I have been addressing your posts, but apaprently it may not be up to your level of satisfaction, and you posted a verse:

quote:

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2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

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So how do you say that no one sins yet we see clearly in verse 1 of 1 John chapter 2 that if[b/] any man sin? an [b]if actually suggests that ia may happen and if it does then you can ask for forgiveness.. Can you elaborate on what exactly you are trying to say clearly without complicating what is clearly stated in Scripture after you address my questions I posted initially:

1. Have you ever baptized anyone within the same hour after giving them the Gospel?

2. How do we teach others about Jesus Christ, so they may be baptized when they ask in their hearts 'What must I do to be saved'?

3. Do we muddy the waters with complicated rules and regulations turning people away?

Those are questions I have asked and want to study, not the dynamics of perfectionism vs this or that.. lets stay on topic.
God Bless,
Will