Will, sorry for getting off topic. Thank you for keeping me on task.

To answer your questions: first of all, I agree with you that 1 John 2:1 implies it is possible for a born again believer to commit a known sin. It's just that I also happen to believe John teaches it's not possible to commit a known while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. To commit a known sin a born again believer must first take their eyes off Jesus. In so doing they resurrect the mind of the old man and commit a known sin. Of course, the gift of repentance is available, which ultimately restores the relationship their sin severed.

1. Have you ever baptized anyone within the same hour after giving them the Gospel?

No.

2. How do we teach others about Jesus Christ, so they may be baptized when they ask in their hearts 'What must I do to be saved'?

Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

3. Do we muddy the waters with complicated rules and regulations turning people away?

Romans
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Hi Mike,
I can understand your zeal and passion for serving the Lord which is why you do what you do
What I want to understand is that is North America the only place where a person would have to take a baptism class for several weeks and to learn what is basically very simple? Does this exist in Africa, Asia, South America?

We have a very serious crisis going on that is serious enough to reach the very Throne of God, and He gave His only Son to come and die for our sins. Jesus said that a man has to be born again in by water and Spirit, and in 1 Corinthians we know that a person is a new creation.. the old things are past.
I have read Romans 6, and agree with what it says Mike I definitely do not have issues with that at all, and believe it whole heartedly and you know because of my own stupidity and what I believe to be lack of faith there have been times I have let go (very stupid I know) and have fallen on my face, and I know that The Lord picks me up and I go and pray and ask for forgiveness.
I have a serious concern for people who are in a really bad spot and I visit them and feed them every month (will soon be increasing frequency), and I know that The Lord is with them. Lets say for example (hypothetical situation) one of God's children who is on the streets strikes up a conversation with me, and there is a genuine interest to learn more about Jesus, so I would naturally give them a Bible and point them to John 3:16, and show them the verses in Acts 16:31, and this person says that they believe in their heart that Jesus Christ died for their sins and they want to be baptized.. What do I do? I am thinking ahead here because it can happen and I want to be prepared and don't want to give a basically lame excuse of telling them 'Well we can have a Bible study for the next X weeks' when in reality they may not be around the next day, week or month.
How does one handle this? All I have with me is the Holy Spirit, my Bible, and lots of literature which happens to include Steps to Christ.

Has this happened to you when you are overseas?

God Bless,
Will

Will, thank you for being so understanding. I am excited about your mission involvement. You have chosen, what I consider to be, one of the most challenging groups to work with. You are in my prayers, brother.

You ask a very good question regarding the gospel and the timing of baptism. Here's the way I understand it and what I learned in college while studying for the ministry:

The disciples were baptizing people left and right, by the thousands, shortly after the ascension of Jesus, but they were basically reaping the harvest of Jesus' 3 1/2 year ministry. Most of these people were already familiar with the truth and all they needed was to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour.

But as time passed, and they began to work with people less familiar with the truth, things slowed down markedly. The people who were baptized too soon, before they were thoroughly indoctrinated, went on to become the source of all manner of trouble within the church.

Baptism is basically membership approval and acceptance. People are baptized into the church. "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 2:47. As such they need to know what it means to be a church member, what is expected of them. This is fair to them and necessary to protect the church from riff-raff and half converted souls. "As an important factor in the spiritual growth of the new converts the apostles were careful to surround them with the safeguards of gospel order." AA 185.

6BC 1075.7
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897).

8T 184.2
Some will be sanctified through the truth; but many make a superficial change in their habits and practices, and then suppose that they are Christians. They are received into church fellowship, but they are a great trouble and a great care. Through them Satan tries to sow in the church the seeds of jealousy, dishonesty, criticism, and accusing. Thus he tries to corrupt the other members of the church. The disposition that has mastered them from childhood, that led them to break away from all restraint and brought them down to degradation, still controls them. They are reported to be rescued, but too often time shows that the work done for them did not make them submissive children of God. At every supposed slight, resentful feelings rise. They cherish bitterness, wrath, malice. By their words and spirit they show that they have not been born again. Their tendencies are downward, tending to sensuality. They are untrustworthy, unthankful, unholy. Thus it is with all who have not been soundly converted. Every one of these marred characters, untransformed, becomes an efficient worker for Satan, creating dissension and strife. [end quote] You might want to read this quote in its context since it pertains to the type of ministry you've chosen to pursue.

That's why it is so important to follow Jesus' instruction and spend time with baptismal candidates and ensure they understand what it means to be converted and born again, what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist, especially in these last days. Surely there is time enough to properly prepare souls for baptism.

Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach; all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Amen Mike. I noticed that the word teach is used before baptizing them in verse 19. So many times people are baptized and then they find out what the commands of God are and that can be a real shock to some. Or some are not even taught the commands of God and they continue right on where they were. I do not believe we are really caring for their souls when we do not teach them before baptizing them.

This thread was opened, in part, with the following question:

quote:

---

Or do we muddy the waters with complicated rules and regulations turning people away?

---

Would a baptismal candidate want to be baptized before learning about our complicated rules and regulations? What happens if they get baptized before learning about them and afterwards they decide they don't agree with them?

I'm not aware of any rules that made me want to wish I wasn't born again. If its not based on the Bible then those rules are completely useless, and redundant.

The jailer believed and him and his family were baptized after they heard the Word of God.
The thief on the cross wasn;t even baptized, and didn't have any special rules to follow, and he was saved.
God Bless,
Will

I worked as an evangelist for Amazing Facts for a year, and I met alot of people across the country and Cananda who wanted to be baptized the first or second meeting of a 23 meeting series.

We were told to encourage these kinds of people to attend all the meetings and then make a decision to be baptized. On average, about 4 out of 10 of these kinds of people quit attending after they learned about the sabbath.

Quite a few quit when they learned the meetings were sponsored by the SDA church - "that legalistic cult". Others enjoyed the singing and the stories and were perfectly content to stay with their own church family.

In some cases I felt certain people were "saved" or "born again", and just because they rejected the SDA church or the sabbath didn't, in my mind, mean they were unsaved.

In 23 meetings, including home visits, some people still do not understand the SDA message and mission and, as such, they are not ready to commit to baptism and church membership.

So, is salvation contingent upon baptism and church membership?

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Having just read through the comments on this forum, there certainly is a lot to consider. I guess we need to take into consideration where people are at regarding what they must do to be saved:
1.The thief on the cross could not get down and be baptized, so was accepted right then and there.
2.The Jailer and his family accepted Jesus and were in a position to be baptized and were.
3.People who attend lengthy seminars are obviously searching and are in a position to accept Jesus and be baptized.
4.Homeless people are not usually in a position to follow the norm of attending church and should be (like the thief on the cross) accepted right where they are, and offered baptism.

We are not all the same and our squeaky clean churches often make it hard for people who are "different" to fit in.

An individual knows if they are born again. In my experience I was born again when I realized that God existed and that He loved me. An unbelievable sense of hope, joy and peace came over me. I wanted to be baptized but was refused because they thought that I was not ready. This was with the Jehovah Witnesses. I felt so disheartened that I stopped seeing them.

I knew in my heart that I had to find a church that was right. However the JWs had told me that everywhere else was pagan. I was really afraid to go anywhere and prayed like mad outside a church that Satan would not touch me. When I finally went in I knew that God was with me, I felt a tremendous peace come over me and I knew that I was not in a pagan place. It is amazing how God works.

The church that I was attending was a Sunday keeping church and they believed in going straight to heaven when dead. I knew from reading my bible that this was not true. I finally left that church and did not attend a church for 2 years. God still had a hold on me and led me to the Adventist church. Finally a church that teaches the truth.

My Husband and I were baptized 2 months ago. We went through the baptismal lessons and the fundamental beliefs. It was good and I am glad that we went through it. We both know and understand who and what we have committed to. However, I believe that I was saved before I was baptized. I was a changed person and only the spirit of God could have done that.

You just don't know how God will work in people’s lives.

God bless
Shelley

[ July 20, 2004, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Shelley ]

It is amazing at how good God is, and how we all have the gift of eternal life extended to us in love, and no matter who or where we are Jesus said He would never leave us.
God Bless,
Will