Thank you for clarifying your statement, which is why I asked if I was correct in assessing what you said cause I found it confusing.
Why would Jesus pray to the Father, that life eternal is knowing Him(The Father) and Jesus Christ who He has sent.
There was a factor of knowing 2 persons. I say this because Jesus emphasized that, and was showing His disciples some very interesting things about His mission, who He was sent by, who He learned from, and who loves them, what would happen to Him, The Bible clearly states what the works of the devil is. It is sin, those are his works, and whoever practices sin is of the devil for the devil has sinned from the beginning 1 John 3:8.
God bless,
Will

I'm not following your point regarding the Father and the Son. Jesus said:

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. (John 14:7-9)

The whole purpose of Jesus' mission was to reveal the Father. It's true that God was revealed in "sundry ways" in the Old Testament, but the fullness of His glory was not seen until Jesus Christ (John 1:14-18; Heb. 1:1-3; 2 Cor. 3).

I agree that sin is the work of the devil. But is sin a physical thing which can be destroyed? Or is the battle one which is fought in the mind?

Sin resides in the mind, so in order to destroy it, the mind must be changed. One must be born again. This is where Jesus Christ comes in. Quoting from Ellen White:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)

Here we see the stages of salvation:
1.The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God.
2.This love draws us to Himself.
3.If we do not resist, we will be led to repentance.
4.We are brought into harmony with God and His holy law.

Quote:

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By James: This is the true Gospel:
The Gospel of Christ is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, first for the Jews, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: The righteous will live by faith.” Romans 1:16, 17.

Jesus did teach the Gospel in live when he was on earth and through His Holy Spirit when he was in heaven.

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Amen, James, Jesus did teach the gospel and it was good news. I think that many don’t understand the way the Jews thought. They believed that God was in every act of nature doing good and evil as either a reward or punishment. They believed that if there were a storm that flooded a man’s house the man must have some deep sin and God had to punish him. If a man had a disease it was sent from God as a punishment. Every act of the Adversary was attributed to God. This idea of God was started in heaven by Lucifer as he whispered of God’s supposed indiscretions.

Trust is the issue in the Great Controversy

God said that if man ate of the tree in the midst of the garden that man would die. Satan said that God was a liar and that the tree was good to make one wise. Therefore, the thought had to have crossed Adam and Eve’s mind, while enjoying eating the fruit, “if this fruit isn’t going to kill us then who is?” Thus they were hiding for fear of their lives when God showed up. Somehow in one conversation with Satan our first parents were convinced that God is lethal and someone to fear.

There is a “fear of God” that is a healthy respect kind of like the fear of my wife. I am really afraid to hurt her in any way. I love and respect her and would never do or say anything to bring down her wrath (leave me or divorce me). I’m not afraid that she would torch me because she is a peace loving individual that respects life, but I know that if I persisted in doing harm to her and the kids she would definitely leave me to my own self destructive ways.

There is another fear that is bad. That fear would be like having a wife that was psychotic and knowing that if I crossed a certain line, sometime, somewhere, she would find a way to kill me to get even. I don’t think I would want to be married to her. In fact I would want to run as far away from her as possible as quickly as possible. God has been presented by Satan as someone we can’t trust and someone we better fear. No wonder this world is in such a mess. The masses are running from Him, trying to appease Him, wondering why He inflicts so much suffering on little undeserving men, women, and children, wondering when it is my turn to be in the receiving end of one of God’s temper tantrums.

God is love and perfect love casts out fear. Jesus (God) came to earth disguised as a human. He was an ambassador from heaven representing God like none before Him. He presented God as “light and there is no darkness in Him”. He presented God as unconditional love, someone that wants to be our friend, someone that cries over our pain, rejoices in our joys, heals us when we are sick, and would give His life to save ours. This is our God. Behold Him on the cross!

This is good new! Really good news!

In Christ, scott

Hi Tom,

I think, according to your last post, we see things very similar. Thank you for making it so clear.

In the dark ages the church took the gospel away from the common people by removing bibles and setting up the clergical hierarchy.

In modern times the reformed church has taken the gospel away through language. Rather than making things simple they make them hard. This is why I appreciate Ellen so much. Although she enters the realm of theology and speaks their language she also breaks it down into understandable pieces. Many of her interpretations of the theological "dark speech" are refreshing and illuminating.

Thanks again!

In Christ, scott

Will n Tom, Is there any specific reason this must be an either or situation? I see no reason that Jesus mission could not have been both to show us who God Father is and to save us from our sins by being the guiltless lamb sacraficed for us. Two biblical pictures of Jesus mission to earth, you arent forced to choose between them.

Being the guitless lamb of God sacrificed for us (and by us) shows us who God the Father is better than anything else possibly could. They aren't two different things, but one. There is no "either or" involved.


Tom

Scott, I agree completely that truth is the issue involved in the Great Controversy. Above all else, the issue is "What is the truth about God?"

From the beginning God has been seeking to reveal the truth about Himself, but the adversary, our nature, and our sins, make things very difficult for Him, as these things conspire to cause us to misinterpret what He is saying to us. It is a terrible shame that (some) Christians (e.g. who believe that God predestines certain ones to be tortured eternally in hell) have the worst possible view of God's character possible.

Here's something from our official website:

God's greatest desire is for you to see a clear picture of His character. When you see Him clearly, you will find His love irresistible.

For many, "seeing God clearly" requires that they see God's face. However, how He looks is not the issue. Seeing and understanding His character is what's most important. The more clearly we understand Him, the more we will find His love irresistible. As we begin to experience His love, our own lives will begin to make more sense.

God most clearly reveals His character in three great events. The first is His creation of man and woman--and His giving them the freedom of choice. He created humans with the ability to choose to love Him or to hate Him! The death of Jesus Christ, God's only Son, on the cross as our substitute is the second great event. In that act He paid the penalty we deserve for our hateful choices toward God and His ways. Jesus' death guarantees forgiveness for those choices and allows us to spend eternity with Him. The third event confirms the first two and fills every heart with hope: Christ's tomb is empty! He is alive, living to fill us with His love!

Jesus' disciple John wrote that if everyone wrote all the stories they knew about Jesus, the whole world could not contain them. Our knowledge of God helps us understand His love, character, and grace. Experiencing that love begins a lifelong adventure in growth and service. This knowledge and experience powers our mission to tell the world about His love and His offer of salvation. (http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/index.html)

This is a nice emphasis! I'm glad to see our official site emphasizing the importance of "seeing God clearly." I agree with whoever wrote this that this is what's important, and it is appropriate that this be the emphasis of our denomination.

I think its both Thomas. I believe iis the grand scheme of things, the Bible says so and Jesus mentioned that when Phillip asked Him to show us the Father. Jesus mentioned His Father on different occasions.
God Bless,
Will

Tom I disagree. You said Jesus whole purpose waws to reveal the Father, the Bible cleary and expressly states that Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. I dont have a problem with that at all, as I dont have a problem with Christ telling His disciples about the Father, but I do have a major bone to pick when Christ's work is negated to one of a real estate broker showing you a house with all the nice bells n whitsles, and how nice it would be to own one. Action needs to take place to pull you out of that situation. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
There was a bigger plan in mind and that was to save mankind from the clutches of satan, whom they had given allegiance to, and also to whom the world belonged to.
The prophets mentioned this, He would heal the sick, restore eight to the blind, set the captives free etc etc. What Jesus did was redeem us, He bought us back, by using Himself as a sacrifice, and died to take away our sins.
By believing in Him and having faith in what He did, you not only believe Him but believe in Him that sent Him which was His Father.
God Bless,
Will

Thomas,
I wanted to complete my line of thought:
Simultaneously Christ Christ dwelt among men to become more like us, and He had a mission to accomplish, and in Him was found no sin, but He became sin for us. I know what you are saying, about it not being one or the other, yet it appears to me that it does come down to one or the other by negating the redemtion of mankind by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We don't need a sales person to show us how neat and packaged out product is, we need someone to take action and give us what we need.
In fact the book of revelation starts off with the most siginificant important words that will have an affect on all mankind since the beginning of time:

Quote:

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Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him,to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

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If its not one or the other, it must include both. I don't see that in Tom's post's, so I will come and defend the fact that Christ's work was to redeem mankind, not show us some far off person in another galaxy, and how good He is, we know that from John 3:16, John 16:27,1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16. I need to know "Will I be forgiven, Will I be saved, What must I do to be saved". From there you begin your commitment, and by faith in believing that God is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him, well its a life long walk, one with a definite good and wonderful ending.
God Bless,
Will