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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#100697
07/08/08 05:28 AM
07/08/08 05:28 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Here's a quote I've often presented, although to date I don't believe it's had any impact. Night before last I was shown that evidences in regard to the covenants were clear and convincing. Yourself, Brother Dan Jones, Brother Porter and others are spending your investigative powers for naught to produce a position on the covenants to vary from the position that Brother Waggoner has presented.(1888 Mat. 604) Tom, this is a classic quote taken out of context. 1) No mention of specific positions is made in this quote, nor even in the paragraphs before and after it. 2) The emphatic nature of the statement is cutting BOTH ways. Notice this sentence from the paragraph which follows your quote: "As to the law in Galatians, I have no burden and never have had and know Brother Smith, Porter, Jones or any one will never be prepared to receive light, either to establish or refute their position until every one of you are men truly converted before God." 3) Judging by the context, I would say this is most clearly speaking to the motivation, spirit, and/or attitude of those studying the issues, and is NOT addressing the issues themselves. 4) Mrs. White herself takes no sides in the matter in this statement, other than to urge true conversion of heart before taking up this study. 5) I agree with her on this point. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100702
07/08/08 03:13 PM
07/08/08 03:13 PM
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by GC: 4) Mrs. White herself takes no sides in the matter in this statement, other than to urge true conversion of heart before taking up this study.
She doesn't in that statement, but she did later see the law in Galations as the 10 Commandments and the cerimonial law which together make up the Old Covenant. by Ellen: I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments. {1SM 233.1}
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: scott]
#100705
07/08/08 05:02 PM
07/08/08 05:02 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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by GC: 4) Mrs. White herself takes no sides in the matter in this statement, other than to urge true conversion of heart before taking up this study.
She doesn't in that statement, but she did later see the law in Galations as the 10 Commandments and the cerimonial law which together make up the Old Covenant. by Ellen: I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments. {1SM 233.1} Tom and Scott, I say this to both of you. I'm not ready to argue on this point further. I don't feel it is productive. Paul is the most easily misunderstood author in the Bible, in my opinion, and this is why I challenged you to establish your views without him. Nor do I think it should be necessary to use his writings to support such an important doctrine as that of the covenant(s) of God, which are mentioned scores of times in other books throughout the Bible. I will present a few statements to illustrate why I feel this way in this particular instance, and then I will hope that you will not belabor this point with me. I do not understand, particularly, where you are even trying to go with these recent statements from Mrs. White's pen. She herself seems to prefer harmony over the sharp accuracy of truth on this issue. Here are her statements: Especially the Moral Law
"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law. The law reveals sin to us, and causes us to feel our need of Christ and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. {1SM 234.5} [Selected Messages Book 1 (1958)]
This statement seems to lead a different direction from the one Scott quoted. Now, for some background on this, I did a little reading. I have been blessed by it, and pray that you will too. Should you like to read the statements in their full context, I suggest you click on this link. However, in shorter form, I will quote here: But this was not the case at Minneapolis. Those there did not try to make their differences "as slight as possible." For two years the issue of the law in Galatians had smoldered, and when it was taken up, bitterness and accusations were unleashed. {3BIO 399.2}
The focal point was verse 24 of chapter 3, which reads: "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." There was no argument among Seventh-day Adventists concerning the believer's being justified by faith, although this vital truth was sadly neglected at the time. In 1888 the sharp difference of opinion, as when J. H. Waggoner wrote on the subject in 1854, was whether the law brought to view as the schoolmaster was the moral or the ceremonial law. Thus two issues were bound up in a study of "the law and the gospel" in such a way that if one topic suffered in bitter debate, both were affected. The great adversary took advantage of this. {3BIO 399.3}
The Law in Galatians at Last Introduced
On Monday, October 15, near the close of the institute, E. J. Waggoner introduced the subject of the law in Galatians. The discussion ran for almost a week at the Bible study periods in the General Conference session. Beginning with the second day, Waggoner placed the emphasis on justification by faith. He was scholarly, gentle, and earnest, his arguments persuasive. On Monday, October 22, just one week after beginning his studies, he wrote a report of the progress of the institute and the General Conference session for the readers of the Signs of the Times. After writing of the subjects presented in the Bible study hour during the first few days, he reported that next taken up were "the law and the gospel in their various relations, coming under the general head of justification by faith." {3BIO 399.5}
These subjects have aroused a deep interest in the minds of all present; and thus far during the conference, one hour a day has been devoted to a continuance of their study.--ST, Nov. 2, 1888. {3BIO 400.1}
His audience generally was in sympathy with the much-loved and respected Uriah Smith. Many stood with Butler, who was absent. Because Ellen White was tolerant and wished to see a fair discussion of the vital question of Christ and His righteousness, it was assumed she was influenced by Waggoner. This she denied, testifying: {3BIO 400.2}
I have had no conversation in regard to it with my son W. C. White, with Dr. Waggoner, or with Elder A. T. Jones.--MS 15, 1888 (see also A. V. Olson, Thirteen Crisis Years, pp. 304, 305). {3BIO 400.3}
All could see that she listened attentively to Waggoner's expositions. In her retrospective statement, written soon after the conference, she declared: {3BIO 400.4}
When I stated before my brethren that I had heard for the first time the views of Elder E. J. Waggoner, some did not believe me. I stated that I had heard precious truths uttered that I could respond to with all my heart, for had not these great and glorious truths, the righteousness of Christ and the entire sacrifice made in behalf of man, been imprinted indelibly on my mind by the Spirit of God? Has not this subject been presented in the testimonies again and again? When the Lord had given to my brethren the burden to proclaim this message, I felt inexpressively grateful to God, for I knew it was the message for this time.--MS 24, 1888 (see also 3SM, p. 172). {3BIO 400.5}
It is interesting to note that several times Ellen White declared that she was not ready to accept some points made by Dr. Waggoner. Of this she wrote on November 1, while the conference was nearing its close: {3BIO 401.1}
Some interpretations of Scripture given by Dr. Waggoner I do not regard as correct. But I believe him to be perfectly honest in his views, and I would respect his feelings and treat him as a Christian gentleman. . . . The fact that he honestly holds some views of Scripture differing from yours or mine is no reason why we should treat him as an offender, or as a dangerous man, and make him the subject of unjust criticism. We should not raise a voice of censure against him or his teachings unless we can present weighty reasons for so doing and show him that he is in error. No one should feel at liberty to give loose rein to the combative spirit. . . . {3BIO 401.2}
It would be dangerous to denounce Dr. Waggoner's position as wholly erroneous. This would please the enemy. I see the beauty of truth in the presentation of the righteousness of Christ in relation to the law as the doctor has placed it before us.--MS 15, 1888 (see also Olson, op. cit., p. 304). {3BIO 401.3}
Satan's Diverting Strategy
Here we see some of the fine points in the matter. In this statement she refers to the enemy; it is very clear that she considered what was taking place as a phase of the struggle between the forces of righteousness and the forces of the enemy. She had been forewarned: "I had presented before me in Europe chapters in the future experience of our people which are being fulfilled during this meeting. The reason given me was want of Bible piety and of the spirit and mind of Christ. The enemy has been placing his mold on the work for years, for it certainly is not the divine mold."--MS 21, 1888. {3BIO 401.4}
Blessings, Green Cochoa
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100706
07/08/08 05:08 PM
07/08/08 05:08 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I realized after I posted that perhaps I was not clear enough. The point I am unwilling to argue further on is specifically this: The exact definition of the law as Paul used the term in Galatians, and more specifically, whether or not Ellen White, Jones, Waggoner, or anyone else, had the correct view of it. I need not be pitting one against another further in this discussion.
I'm happy to continue discussing other points related to the covenants.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100707
07/08/08 06:30 PM
07/08/08 06:30 PM
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The usage of the word "law" in Paul's writings were in reference to the Old Covenant given at Sinai which included both the 10 Commandments as the standard of righteousness and the ceremonial laws as compacted prophecies of Jesus. The word "law" specifically is talking about the five books of Moses and "the prophets" is specifically talking about the major and minor prophets. Together we have what Jesus referred to as the "scriptures" that "testify of me".
At the transfiguration both Moses (representing the law) and Elijah (representing the prophets) were seen talking with Jesus. Jesus face shone like the sun and His clothes were white as light itself. Once Peter requested to make three tabernacles, one for Moses, one for Elijah, and one for Jesus immediately the voice of the Father declared, "This is my Beloved Son who greatly pleases Me! Listen to Him!"
Why would God tell Jesus' disciples to listen to Jesus with Moses and Elijah standing there?
Hmmmm!
Maybe they were tempted to listen to them over Jesus or place them equal to Jesus, but God straightened them out. When you see the three together, "Listen to Jesus!"
scott
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: scott]
#100708
07/08/08 06:37 PM
07/08/08 06:37 PM
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I say this to both of you. I'm not ready to argue on this point further. I don't feel it is productive. Paul is the most easily misunderstood author in the Bible, in my opinion, and this is why I challenged you to establish your views without him. Nor do I think it should be necessary to use his writings to support such an important doctrine as that of the covenant(s) of God, which are mentioned scores of times in other books throughout the Bible.
Paul seems to be pretty clear to me. It seems that the problem we are having is that he wasn't so clear to Ellen. Maybe this is one of those places we should take her advice and "take the Bible". scott
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: scott]
#100713
07/09/08 05:12 AM
07/09/08 05:12 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I say this to both of you. I'm not ready to argue on this point further. I don't feel it is productive. Paul is the most easily misunderstood author in the Bible, in my opinion, and this is why I challenged you to establish your views without him. Nor do I think it should be necessary to use his writings to support such an important doctrine as that of the covenant(s) of God, which are mentioned scores of times in other books throughout the Bible.
Paul seems to be pretty clear to me. It seems that the problem we are having is that he wasn't so clear to Ellen. Maybe this is one of those places we should take her advice and "take the Bible". scott Are you setting yourself above her? I don't like the tenor of this... Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100717
07/09/08 03:00 PM
07/09/08 03:00 PM
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Oh no! I’m not worthy to tie her shoes!
Just following her advice! It seems to me that God gave this particular message to Jones and Waggoner and that Ellen was only slightly in the loop as she supported them. Their message took her by surprise and she was thrilled to hear God's voice in these men. Maybe we would do well to listen to them rather than listen to her as she struggles trying to make sense of it all theologically.
Do you consider my thoughts blasphemy?
scott
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: scott]
#100719
07/09/08 03:25 PM
07/09/08 03:25 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I think Waggoner was the clearest. I rather agree with GC regarding Paul. I think Paul is widely misunderstood. I think Ellen White is also widely misunderstood. Actually, anyone who writes on spiritual matters is apt to be misunderstood.
However, I think John and E. G. Waggoner are two who wrote particularly clearly. I also think Jesus' teachings are, in general, clear. (I say "in general" because sometimes there are some historical/cultural insights which are necessary to correctly understand His words; e.g. parable of Lazarus and the rich man; the great thing about Jesus' words is even if you get something a bit wrong, there's still a lot of meat one can get.)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#100724
07/09/08 06:01 PM
07/09/08 06:01 PM
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Might Paul be so misunderstood simply because people use his legal metaphor to create an atonement model that doesn't fit God's character? When it comes to the covenants Paul is our only real source of prophetic interpretation. Where else can one go to understand the covenants other than Paul? Where else can one go to understand the law and grace other than Paul?
Who else was filled with the Holy Spirit, called by God to write about these things, and saw hard things to understand and left with the job of making them understood?
How can we say we see things more clearly than those so close to Jesus and called as Apostles to take the gospel to the world?
I somehow don't think Paul is the problem!
He is the cognitive dissonance that keeps challenging our pet theologies.
scott
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